Gay Catholics urge synod fathers to reject 'harsh language' [CH-UK]

[sarah_j]

Yes and I’m going to out on a short limb here and just venture a guess and say Pope Francis considers LGBT baptized Catholics his brothers and sisters. He said even the non Christians of other religions with whom he was with in NY at ground zero were his brothers and sisters.

Of course, the Pope considers them his brothers and sisters. And out of concern
for their sprititual well-being, he must speak God’s truth… which isn’t always
pleasant to hear (for any of us).

It isn’t his role as leader of the Catholic Church to rubber-stamp people’s sinfulness or misconstrued beliefs so that people can feel good about themselves.

It’s his role to lead them to God.

 

[Regina7]

It remains very clear to Catholics for sure. And not to go into the understandings of other Christians as it is not difficult to find their reasoning with simple searches on the internet. But to many other Christians and their denominations as they have reexamined their understandings of God, it is not as very clear.

Other Christians adapt the Bible to support what they want it to support. Why do we have 44,000 different Protestant denominations in the US? It’s the whole thinking, “Well, I don’t like this particular teaching, so I’ll just start my own church.”

 

[philipl]

Well that is your view on homosexuality. There are others in this world that do not feel the same and that is also alright. To each there own everyone on both sides has their reasons. I personally can not judge anyone because I am not God.

To address the other topic here. No one is talking about abortion here or adultery. Its about homosexuality. They are two different topics. Changing one thing does not mean change the other or everything.

Have a nice day!

Homosexual behavior is either sinful or its not sinful. It can nobe be up to the person to decide one way or the other.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Of course, the Pope considers them his brothers and sisters. And out of concern
for their sprititual well-being, he must speak God’s truth… which isn’t always
pleasant to hear (for any of us).

It isn’t his role as leader of the Catholic Church to rubber-stamp people’s sinfulness or misconstrued beliefs so that people can feel good about themselves.

It’s his role to lead them to God.

When I visit Catholic churches, I see families and couples as well as individuals sitting in the pews. Gays and lesbians are already in your community. They are already a part of the life of the Church. I keep saying it’s the new normal, just as divorce and blended families had to become the new normal however many decades ago.

All this crisis mode talk about ‘them’ and ‘their’ disorder. Well, perhaps people could just calm down a bit and let ‘them’ lead normal lives - going to work, raising the children, coming to church, and having lives that have meaning.

 

[Scottgun]

When I visit Catholic churches, I see families and couples as well as individuals sitting in the pews. Gays and lesbians are already in your community. They are already a part of the life of the Church. I keep saying it’s the new normal, just as divorce and blended families had to become the new normal however many decades ago.

All this crisis mode talk about ‘them’ and ‘their’ disorder. Well, perhaps people could just calm down a bit and let ‘them’ lead normal lives - going to work, raising the children, coming to church, and having lives that have meaning.

In other words, either approve of sinful behavior or shut up.

 

[phil19034]

When I visit Catholic churches, I see families and couples as well as individuals sitting in the pews. Gays and lesbians are already in your community. They are already a part of the life of the Church. I keep saying it’s the new normal, just as divorce and blended families had to become the new normal however many decades ago.

All this crisis mode talk about ‘them’ and ‘their’ disorder. Well, perhaps people could just calm down a bit and let ‘them’ lead normal lives - going to work, raising the children, coming to church, and having lives that have meaning.

The Catholic Church loves gay PEOPLE. But we condemn gay ACTS. We love divorced people but condemn divorce.

Sexually active homosexuals may not receive communion just like sexually active unmarried heterosexuals may not receive communion.

Anyone who has committed any mortal sin and has not been to confession may not not receive confession. If you miss Sunday Mass for an “unexcused reason” you cannot receive communion until you’ve been to confession.

Divorced and remarried (without an annulment) cannot receive communion unless they receive an annulment, separate, or live as brother & sister. People who marry outside the Church without dispensation cannot receive communion until they marry inside the Church. Gay people who have a “same sex marriage” may not receive communion until they end this blasphemous arrangement and go to confession.

Sex is SACRED to Catholics. Matrimony is one of the seven sacraments of God.

We cannot change that and no one can receive sacraments in a state of mortal sin.

The Church doesn’t prevent them from communion to punish them, but to protect them from further endangering their soul. According to St Paul, anyone who receives the Body or Blood of Christ unworthily eats or drinks death.

We reject these sins because we LOVE these people and we care more about their souls after they die than we care about their “feelings” or opinions while they are alive.

It is better to have a miserable life and go to Heaven, than to have a wonderful life and go to hell. As Jesus says, if your eyes cause your sin, it is better to pry them out than to go to hell.

“Love the sinner, but hate the sin.”

May The Lord grant us wisdom and understanding.

God Bless

 

[Catholic_farmer]

I don’t see any reason to not change it. I can see how “disordered” is meant in terms of order vs disorder. But I can also see that it’s other meaning, referring to medical or psychological “disorder”, can make it sound as it being gay is being sick, like a sort of “gay flu”. I’m certain there are people that would be happy if they could just cure their “flu” and move on with life without the burden of this particular cross. However, that isn’t so. All of us are made in God’s image and all of us are loved. He doesn’t make any mistakes so these Catholics, are indeed, our brothers and sisters. I’m not sure what other word to use, in place of disorder, but I can see their point. I’m sure the Synod can figure something out (look to the Latin, maybe?) without compromising the Church’s views on the definition of a marriage.

God bless all those Catholics in Courage, and similar groups. May God give you the grace to live your lives basking in His love and light.

 

[Corki]

It remains very clear to Catholics for sure. And not to go into the understandings of other Christians as it is not difficult to find their reasoning with simple searches on the internet. But to many other Christians and their denominations as they have reexamined their understandings of God, it is not as very clear.

That’s irrelevant. The topic is the Synod and the request is to change the wording in **the Catechism **and other documents. While there are plenty of documents that address people outside the Church, these are specifically directed to the Church and her members. To change wording that appeases non-Catholics but that dims the clarity of Church teaching for Catholics is counter-productive.

 

[gilliam]

Archbishop Chaput about the upcoming Synod:

And on gay couples?

Members of the Church have been bigoted toward people with same-sex attraction, have actually been cruel, and also physically violent at times. We have to repent for that. But in the US, this doesn’t happen so often in the Church anymore.

We need to think about what we can do today, to welcome people who don’t live according to the teachings of the Church on any issue. It’s not only on this issue; there are people who don’t agree with the teaching on any number of issues, who feel alienated from the Church. We can’t say, “That’s not important, don’t worry about it, come back anyway,” because we can’t trivialize the words of Jesus and the teachings of the Church. But [we have to ask ourselves] how can we accept them?

cruxnow.com/church/2015/10/01/francis-stands-with-us-on-religious-freedom-philly-archbishop-says/

 

[Corki]

I don’t see any reason to not change it. I can see how “disordered” is meant in terms of order vs disorder. But I can also see that it’s other meaning, referring to medical or psychological “disorder”, can make it sound as it being gay is being sick, like a sort of “gay flu”. I’m certain there are people that would be happy if they could just cure their “flu” and move on with life without the burden of this particular cross. However, that isn’t so. All of us are made in God’s image and all of us are loved. He doesn’t make any mistakes so these Catholics, are indeed, our brothers and sisters. **I’m not sure what other word to use, in place of disorder, but I can see their point. **

God bless all those Catholics in Courage, and similar groups. May God give you the grace to live your lives basking in His love and light.

Therein lies the problem. Is there really any other word to use? Some have suggested “condition” rather than “disorder” but the inference to an illness is still there. I think the LGBT crowd really wants some language that points to homosexuality as normal and that just isn’t the case.

I’m sure the Synod can figure something out (look to the Latin, maybe?) without compromising the Church’s views on the definition of a marriage.

The Latin, btw, in the Catechism is “inordinatos”.
It’s not just the Church’s teaching on the definition of marriage that is affected by the language. It is also the Church’s teaching on the fallen nature of man, the nature of sexuality and the teaching about the body.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

The Catholic Church loves gay PEOPLE. But we condemn gay ACTS. We love divorced people but condemn divorce.

Sexually active homosexuals may not receive communion just like sexually active unmarried heterosexuals may not receive communion.

Anyone who has committed any mortal sin and has not been to confession may not not receive confession. If you miss Sunday Mass for an “unexcused reason” you cannot receive communion until you’ve been to confession.

Divorced and remarried (without an annulment) cannot receive communion unless they receive an annulment, separate, or live as brother & sister. People who marry outside the Church without dispensation cannot receive communion until they marry inside the Church. Gay people who have a “same sex marriage” may not receive communion until they end this blasphemous arrangement and go to confession.

Sex is SACRED to Catholics. Matrimony is one of the seven sacraments of God.

We cannot change that and no one can receive sacraments in a state of mortal sin.

The Church doesn’t prevent them from communion to punish them, but to protect them from further endangering their soul. According to St Paul, anyone who receives the Body or Blood of Christ unworthily eats or drinks death.

Except people do. That may be the standard, and many people may go by the standard, but in most cases I know, people who are in relationships that the Church does not approve of still go to mass and receive the sacraments. And I assume that they have worked out their own reasoning. I am not going to have a check list for anyone else’s decisions and I would assume that no one else who may be sitting in the next pew over is making a list either.

When I see two gay men and their children going to Mass, I am HAPPY! This family is making their faith central to their life together.

 

[pete_29]

When I visit Catholic churches, I see families and couples as well as individuals sitting in the pews. Gays and lesbians are already in your community. They are already a part of the life of the Church. I keep saying it’s the new normal, just as divorce and blended families had to become the new normal however many decades ago.

All this crisis mode talk about ‘them’ and ‘their’ disorder. Well, perhaps people could just calm down a bit and let ‘them’ lead normal lives - going to work, raising the children, coming to church, and having lives that have meaning.

Quite humorous that an Anglican should tell the Catholic Church how to handle its business. You aren’t Henry VIII by chance?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Quite humorous that an Anglican should tell the Catholic Church how to handle its business. You aren’t Henry VIII by chance?

LOL. Nope. And I am not telling ‘the Church’ anything, only what I experience and see in parishes. Gay families are here to stay. They are your neighbors and in the next pew.

 

[phil19034]

Except people do. That may be the standard, and many people may go by the standard, but in most cases I know, people who are in relationships that the Church does not approve of still go to mass and receive the sacraments. And I assume that they have worked out their own reasoning. I am not going to have a check list for anyone else’s decisions and I would assume that no one else who may be sitting in the next pew over is making a list either.

When I see two gay men and their children going to Mass, I am HAPPY! This family is making their faith central to their life together.

To be clear… every Catholic MUST come to Mass. Even excommunicated Catholics are still supposed to come to Mass every week.

Just because people do what they are not supposed to do, doesn’t mean dogma or discipline should change (dogma can’t change anyway).

If everyone drives 90 on an interstate, does the state say “well, everyone is driving 90 instead of 65, so don’t give out tickets”? No. Does the state say, “even tough driving 90 on this road is extremely dangerous, since everyone is doing it we will raise the speed limit to 90”? No. The state wouldn’t even say: “let’s meet them half way and raise it to 80” – especially if the engineers say the road is only rated for a safe speed limit of 65 or 70 at the most.

The Church doesn’t bend with the will of the people, the Church teaches God’s Divine Law. That Law cannot change by humans.

And it’s not like I don’t understand. When I was away from the Church, I married outside the Church and couldn’t receive communion for a while. Did I blame the Church? No. I thanked the Church when I understood why and I blamed myself. Now, I am married in the Church and can receive.

Also, if I’m hungry and eat something 10 minutes before mass, can I receive communion – No, I cannot. Do I blame the Church for not letting me receive communion? No, I respect the 1 hour fast before communion.

God Bless.

 

[Scottgun]

When I see two gay men and their children going to Mass, I am HAPPY! This family is making their faith central to their life together.

Faith and lies cannot coexist and is not an occasion of happiness.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The Catholic Church loves gay PEOPLE. But we condemn gay ACTS. We love divorced people but condemn divorce.

Sexually active homosexuals may not receive communion just like sexually active unmarried heterosexuals may not receive communion.

Anyone who has committed any mortal sin and has not been to confession may not not receive confession. If you miss Sunday Mass for an “unexcused reason” you cannot receive communion until you’ve been to confession.

Divorced and remarried (without an annulment) cannot receive communion unless they receive an annulment, separate, or live as brother & sister. People who marry outside the Church without dispensation cannot receive communion until they marry inside the Church. Gay people who have a “same sex marriage” may not receive communion until they end this blasphemous arrangement and go to confession.

Sex is SACRED to Catholics. Matrimony is one of the seven sacraments of God.

We cannot change that and no one can receive sacraments in a state of mortal sin.

The Church doesn’t prevent them from communion to punish them, but to protect them from further endangering their soul. According to St Paul, anyone who receives the Body or Blood of Christ unworthily eats or drinks death.

We reject these sins because we LOVE these people and we care more about their souls after they die than we care about their “feelings” or opinions while they are alive.

It is better to have a miserable life and go to Heaven, than to have a wonderful life and go to hell. As Jesus says, if your eyes cause your sin, it is better to pry them out than to go to hell.

“Love the sinner, but hate the sin.”

May The Lord grant us wisdom and understanding.

God Bless

But I thought all these people you listed being told they can not receive Jesus at His table, even if they discern His body and blood, must have full knowledge that an act is grave and still intentionally commit the act for it to be a mortal sin?

And then how exactly is full knowledge defined? If, for instance, a person is aware the Catholic Church teaches something is grave and why, but they don’t believe it, do they truly have full knowledge? I only know I find seeing into another’s heart, mind, and conscience where CCC says they are alone with God, to be above my pedigree. So like ComplneSanFran, I’m not going to keep a checklist.

 

[Corki]

But I thought all these people you listed being told they can not receive Jesus at His table, even if they discern His body and blood, must have full knowledge that an act is grave and still intentionally commit the act for it to be a mortal sin?

And then how exactly is full knowledge defined? If, for instance, a person is aware the Catholic Church teaches something is grave and why, but they don’t believe it, do they truly have full knowledge? I only know I find seeing into another’s heart, mind, and conscience where CCC says they are alone with God, to be above my pedigree. So like ComplneSanFran, I’m not going to keep a checklist.

Full knowledge doesn’t necessarily require assent to the teaching. Knowing that the Church teaches something is wrong is sufficient knowledge in almost all cases. Willfully withholding assent is another sin.

 

[brittrossiter]

Except people do. That may be the standard, and many people may go by the standard, but in most cases I know, people who are in relationships that the Church does not approve of still go to mass and receive the sacraments. And I assume that they have worked out their own reasoning. I am not going to have a check list for anyone else’s decisions and I would assume that no one else who may be sitting in the next pew over is making a list either.

When I see two gay men and their children going to Mass, I am HAPPY! This family is making their faith central to their life together.

The Church is a hospital for sinners; glory to God that any sinner is in church.

On the issue of receiving the Eucharist, if someone partakes of the Holy Gifts unworthily, whether due to unconfessed homosexual acts or whatnot, that is a grave tragedy and sadness.

Yet I’ve had occasions in the past, in line for Holy Communion, when I have seen others also in line whom I knew to have done something dreadfully sinful in the recent past (knew because I’d seen it myself). But maybe they’d gone to Confession since then, and I just didn’t know it. Or maybe I’d negligently forgotten awful sins of my own (ones as bad or worse as his) and neglected to Confess them myself. Maybe I’m standing in that line as guilty, or worse, than they (1 Cor. 11:27).

Stories like this, from the writings of St. Dorotheos of Gaza (6th cent.), give me great pause:
Why do we usurp God’s right to judge? Why should we demand a reckoning from his creature, his servant? Ought we not to be afraid when we hear about a brother falling into fornication said, “He has acted wickedly!” If you know what it says about this in the Book of the Ancients, it would make you shudder. For an angel brought [Isaac the Theban] the soul of someone who had fallen into sin, and said to him, “Here is the person you have judged. He has just died. Where do you order him to be put, into the Kingdom or into eternal punishment?” Can you imagine a more terrible situation to be in? What else could the angel mean by these words than, “Since you want to be the judge of the just and the unjust, what do you command for this poor soul?” Is he to be spared or to be punished?" The holy old man, frightened beyond measure, spent the rest of his life praying with sighs and tears and continuous hard work to be forgiven this sin, and this in spite of having fallen on his knees before the angel and been forgiven, for the angel said to him, “You see, God has shown you how serious a thing it is to judge; you must never do it again.”
(excerpt from Dorotheos of Gaza: Discourses and Sayings, Eric Wheeler, trans. (Trappist, Kentucky: Cistercian Publ., 2008), p. 133).

We should absolutely call out sinful acts for what they are. And we need to do a much better job of preparing folks to receive Christ’s Precious Body and Blood, as too many people appear to perceive the Eucharist as something rote and ordinary, or as some sort of entitlement or birthright, when neither could be further from the truth. But I tread very carefully when I am tempted to look around me in the communion line and ask questions about whether so-and-so “belongs” in line.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Full knowledge doesn’t necessarily require assent to the teaching. Knowing that the Church teaches something is wrong is sufficient knowledge in almost all cases. Willfully withholding assent is another sin.

And yet here on the Apologetics subforum, I was told something different.

“Having knowledge of a teaching is not the same as having knowledge. I know that Charles Manson taught that he was the second coming of the Messiah. But I don’t believe it, so I don’t “know” it. I know OF it, but I don’t know it.”

“When the Church speaks of knowledge, she means that you KNOW it, not that you are merely aware of it.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13306782&postcount=61

 

[Sy_Noe]

.
I don’t think homosexuals are seeking approval from the Catholic church at all–and definitely not desperately.

I think they are hoping to teach everyone in this world–including people in the Catholic church–to think and speak more kindly about homosexuals as we move forward into the future.
Words matter.
“Disordered” can be understood to mean something much harsher than it is meant to.
Young people are influenced by this wording and it leads them to unfairly and overly judge a homosexual person because of it.

I don’t think there is anything in canon law or doctrine that says an adjective in the CC can’t be changed.

.

I don’t know if even something like an adjective is unchanging in the Catholic Church, though I would hope not. But I would agree with everything else you’ve said here for sure. “Disordered” though can not only lead young people to treat homosexuals unfairly but it also can be very hurtful for young people who are homosexual. I know the Catholic Church might say they are describing the orientation or acts as disordered, not necessarily the person. But to a young gay person that may not be how it sometimes comes across.