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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Tolerance, Tlaloc, is not the same thing as acceptance.
That was not sarcasm.
That was not sarcasm.
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felra
Guest
It entirely depends on what you are tolerating. Example: to tolerate some forum members and their posts for the higher motive of them ultimately coming to the know the Truth.
This is not sarcasm.
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rayne89
Guest
Just another thing my “unsocialized” homeschooled daughter will be missing out on. Oh darn! 
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Tlaloc
Guest
Tantum ergo:
You’re absolutely correct. No one asks you to accept other’s lifestyles, merely tolerate.
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Bill_A
Guest
Satan and communism is using the gay wolf in Gay sheeps Clothing ministry, to call me unChristian, intolerant and homophobic…
Lets have no reservations about this. If the Gay ministry keeps going, in all its forms. It will push all the good Christians and Catholics out of church. Its not about tolerance, its about how to press the agenda and the status quo to keep the church scandel running full blast and drain the resources financially.
Lets have no reservations about this. If the Gay ministry keeps going, in all its forms. It will push all the good Christians and Catholics out of church. Its not about tolerance, its about how to press the agenda and the status quo to keep the church scandel running full blast and drain the resources financially.
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Tlaloc
Guest
That is the funniest sentence I’ve read here. I can’t even…wow…
Yeah cause it’s not about equality or anything, no it’s about bankrupting the church. Yeah that’s the ticket!
Bill, can I call you Bill? Bill, maybe just maybe, and I want you just roll this one around in the old noggin for a bit, maybe there wouldn’t be any animosity between the Church and the homosexual community if the Church wasn’t trying to *oppress *them.
In other words, maybe, just maybe, you’re complaining when the 90 pound kid starts kicking the sand back at the 300 lb gorilla.
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Lisa_N
Guest
No Tlaloc, it’s the opposite. Homosexuals want the Catholic church to convert to their terms, their definition of sin. THey want the Church to change to suit THEM and their agenda. Now I don’t see how the Church staying true to its own teachings and allowing people to decide if they want to be a part of the body of Christ is oppression. No one is compelled to become a Catholic but having done so, expecting the Church to change to mollify the homosexuals so that they may engage in what the Church as deemed sinful behavior is patently ridiculous.
Lisa N
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kmktexas
Guest
Oppress them?? How so? Those with homosexual attractions are not being asked to do anything that any other member of the Church is asked to do. They are called to live chastely and according to the laws of the Church, to avoid sin and to seek reconciliation when necessary. Not only that, they are the only group within the Church with a myriad of resources available to help them with that calling. There is no disparate treatment, not even a climate of seperate but equal. They are full brothers and sisters in Christ with all the same rights and responsibilities as anyone else.
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Tlaloc
Guest
Lisa N:
For the most part Gays don’t care what the Church believes. They care what the Church does. So long as the Church *continues *attacking them they’ll see it as an enemy. If it simply left them alone and confined itself to, you know, being a church then there wouldn’t be an issue.
Does it feel good to you to think of it that way? As if you were the poor institution victimized by some huge gay conspiracy? Does that help hide the details that the enormous Catholic Church helps to oppress a small segment of the population?
For the most part Gays don’t care what the Church believes. They care what the Church does. So long as the Church *continues *attacking them they’ll see it as an enemy. If it simply left them alone and confined itself to, you know, being a church then there wouldn’t be an issue.
If that’s all it did it wouldn’t. But when you throw in the huge political lobbying the church doesn’t look quite so innocent anymore. They are going out trying to force their personal beliefs on everyone else. Isn’t that what you hate about the “homosexual agenda”? Why is it okay for your side to push their beliefs on others?
I don’t expect the church to mollify anyone, just stop interfering in the secular running of the state.
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felra
Guest
Yeah, put those Church folks into a box where everyone else can do their own thing. Your lack of tolerance? Just because your values and worldview does not overlap with the Church, you want to segregate Church folks from the rest of society? Would you consider trying this prescription from the other foot (how those in opposing lifestyles/values are offensive and intrusive to the Church)?
The Church is not attacking anyone, simply presenting the Truth and living in the integrity of what it believes. Why would you expect anything less/else from the living body of the Church. Just because those opposed to what the Church believes and proclaims/protects feel this as an attack attack and they are the enemy (subjective interpretation) does not make this reality and true, now does it?
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Lisa_N
Guest
Again, how in the world does the Catholic church ‘oppress’ a small segment of the population? No one HAS to be Catholic after all. It IS a choice and a commitment. If a homosexual wants to be a devout and practicing Catholic then yes he will have to live chastely just like a heterosexual who is not married. The requirements are the same regardless of the temptation. What ARE you talking about?
Yes they DO care what the church believes and they want to change it to conform with their own disordered thinking. Why else would we have the various “Rainbow Sash” groups who basically say “Sodomist and darned proud of it!” while walking up to the rail to take communion. How incredibly disrespectful.
Again how is the Church ATTACKING homosexuals? By prosecuting the pedophile/pederast priests? Sadly I think the Church went too far PROTECTING their perversion to the detriment of thousands of boys and the entire body of Christ.
Oh my. Pot calling the kettle black. Does the Church go into schools and demand that Catholicism be taught? No. Do homosexuals go into schools and demand THEIR behavior be taught? Yes. Who is pushing beliefs upon whom? And who is using taxpayer dollars to push their agenda on SECULAR organizations? Not the Catholic church.
What I hate about the “homosexual agenda” is the complete failure to recognize that there are serious problems with this “lifestyle” that there are homosexuals who want more for their team and find the schools a happy hunting ground. Adults can make their own choices. I do not want children encouraged to engage in sexual activity, homosexual or heterosexual.
Look Tlaloc what you do in your bedroom is your business. I don’t care. I do pray for my homosexual friends because some of them have very unhappy lives and serious health issues. I wish they were not homosexual and frankly they do too. I don’t care where you live or with whom. I don’t care who you leave your money to. I just do not want take an unforgettable tour through your ailimentary canal and do not want to know about your sex life. So can you keep it to yourself?
Quite honestly I think you are living in dreamland. I suspect the Church wishes it were more effective in this secular culture but it is not. So tell me how the Church is interfering with the secular running of the state? We need a success story now and then.
Lisa N
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kmktexas
Guest
Tlaloc,
The topic at hand isn’t someone’s religious beliefs. I don’t yet know of a homosexual religion. However, for the sake of argument…
No, I don’t think it is fair to equate someone’s religious beliefs with a crime. You said that, I didn’t. I do think it is fair and sometimes necessary to be discriminate when beliefs are linked to certain behaviors.
For example, it has long been US Immigration policy to screen people before they are allowed to become residents or citizens of this country. While criminal history is one of the screens, there are others. For many years, you couldn’t get a ‘green card’ if you had tuburculosis, for example. Not a crime at all. You could be the nicest, most law abiding person, but you wouldn’t get in. Affiliation with Communist organizations was another exclusion. Currently, if you are aligned with a religious group that advocates violent Jihad, you aren’t getting in.
There are countries where the practice of Catholicism or other Christian religion is outlawed. Is this fair to Catholics? No. Is it a legitimate act of the govenment? Maybe. In some countries religion and secular law are completely intertwined. In the US, for most of our history, our govenment and our laws reflected a Judeo-Christian belief system. The whole concept of seperation of church and state as it is used currently is a recent invention. It wasn’t in the Constitution. The Constitution only prohibits the formation of a state religion. It is in my life time that the words Communist and Atheist were used synonymously - and not just by the McCarthy-ites.
Can you give us any examples of the Church attacking homosexuals? I am not talking about individual Catholics - but how has the Church attacked homosexuals, collectively or individually? I can sure give you lots of examples of homosexuals, individually and in groups, who attack the Church!
The scary part of all of this is a tendancy to want to exclude anyone with religious convictions from having a voice in this country. We saw this recently with a move to exclude practicing Catholics for eligibility for certain judgeships.
Amen, Lisa!!
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Brad
Guest
Lisa N:
In fact, secular humanism was determined to be a religion by the Supreme Court. Time for someone to sue to get it’s teachings out of the schools.
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Tlaloc
Guest
Here’s the difference Felra, I’m not trying to force Catholics to do anything. Catholics are trying to force homosexuals to be second class citizens. I think you should be free to live your own life, just don’t push your beliefs on others.
It makes it true unless you happen to be of the opinion that the church is right. You do have that opinion, that’s fine. But are you wise enough to see how these actions constitute an attack on anyone not of that opinion?
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Lisa_N
Guest
This is almost comical. HOW in the world do Catholics “force” homosexuals to be second class citizens. Several have asked repeatedly for you to explain this outrageous claim. Will you please provide some sort of example?
Tlaloc you would not even encounter the Catholic church if you do not choose to do so. You have come onto a Catholic list and that is your choice. Do not expect that we will all decide the Church is wrong and you Tlaloc are the real authority.
Again, what actions? If you CHOOSE to walk into a church, a club, a school, any organized institution, you should expect that institution has rules, procedures, teachings that might not agree with your own. And if you do not accept those teachings, rules, or procedures you are quite free to leave. No one can oppress you Tlaloc unless you let them. Last time I looked slavery was against the law.
Lisa N
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Tlaloc
Guest
Lisa N:
cc.org/
Maybe you saw the news during this last election cycle?
Again we aren’t talking about practicing catholics Lisa. We’re talking about constitutional amendments, discriminatory laws backed and lobbyied for by the Catholic Church (amongst others).
You are talking about a tiny minority. I’m talking about the homosexual population as a whole.
Hello, this is creationism calling! The Catholic Church has absolutely tried to interfere with secular education.
Teaching tolerance is different than teaching bigotry. You could also say blacks demand that equality of the races be taught, well kind of but its hardly pushing their beliefs especially since racial (and sexual) equality is backed up by the best scientific evidence to date.
Nice to see you engaging in stereotypes.
Absolutely. Can you stop trying to make laws to the contrary though? I have no interest in pushing mine or anyone’s sexuality on you, but your faith keeps picking a fight over it. They fight against teaching kids facts about sex, they fight over teaching kids facts about homosexuality, they fight over allowing gays to marry, and so on oand so forth.
Lobbying.
cc.org/
Maybe you saw the news during this last election cycle?
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Tlaloc
Guest
The comment I responded to was about Wicca which is a religion.
Not really, the constitution is much more a product of the enlightenment than the bible. Democracy in general is a break with traditional Christian thought.
You can interprete that pretty broadly however.
Certainly, as above Catholic lobbying is a major force driving the various forms of discrimination laws that have and continue to try and persecute gays.
You should have a voice in government but if your voice consists of trying to apply your specific religious views to everyone you absolutely should get shut down. Thats the whole point of the checks and balances system, to prevent the tyrrany of the majority. You cannot legitimately vote to make blacks slaves. You similarly should not legitimately be able to vote to make gays second class citizens. But you can. The question is if you will. Will you abuse a broken system to force your views on others or will you accept that wihile you don’t agree with them they can live their lives according to their beliefs?
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Tlaloc
Guest
Relying on science for a world view is hardly a religion. Science is not a religion and should not be used to try and replace religion but neither should religion try to replace science. Each has their place.
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Kevin_Walker
Guest
So now we have the courts determining what constitutes a marriage and what constitutes a religion? This is as inane as the government of Haiti declaring Voodoo as an official religion.
Now I know why I instinctively HATE jurists so much. Remember when America used to practice democracy?
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Kevin_Walker
Guest
Yes, basically science (the practice of the scientific method) is a mere tool, a methodology, and should be regarded that way only.
Theologists have used philosophy and science as a tool in many ways over the course of human history, but, in my humble opinion, science is the weaker of the three.
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