gay defense

[fix]

and we’re back to way so much energy on gay issues and so little on divorce and adultery among heterosexuals?

How much energy is too much? Why not stop the downward spiral here and then work backward rather than misdirecting the argument away from this particular grave sin?

According to the timeline above, it appears the boat launched in 1968. At that time I was in Sr Rosalie’s first grade class learning that “God made me to know Him, Love Him and Serve Him and to be happy with Him in this life and the next”. Was the Church as active on those issues as they are against gay rights now?

Not sure of your point but the Church is not against so-called “gays”. The Church teaches all persons, including homosexual persons, should be treated with dignity. That does not mean endorsing bad behavior.

Were politicians that supported legal divorce told by their Bishops not to receive Communion?

Civil divorce is not always a moral offense as the CCC explains.

Were Catholics told not to work for drug companies that made the Pill or risk excommunication?

That would depend on the circumstance. As you know there such a thing as licit cooperation with evil. The culpability depends on how close one is to the source and what type of cooperation is involved. How does that relate to this topic?

Were Catholic zoning board members disciplined by the Church for allowing adult bookstores in their communites?

Again, that depends on several factors. This is why we have a moral theology tradition.

If so, then I understand. It’s a consistent position against civil acceptance of all things that are considered sinful by the Church. If not, I have to wonder along with the OP at the difference regarding gay issues.

I am sorry, but your arguments do not prove the Church should not speak the truth. What you seem to want is some form of moral equivalency where none really exists.

 

[edwest2]

and we’re back to way so much energy on gay issues and so little on divorce and adultery among heterosexuals? According to the timeline above, it appears the boat launched in 1968. At that time I was in Sr Rosalie’s first grade class learning that “God made me to know Him, Love Him and Serve Him and to be happy with Him in this life and the next”. Was the Church as active on those issues as they are against gay rights now? Were politicians that supported legal divorce told by their Bishops not to receive Communion? Were Catholics told not to work for drug companies that made the Pill or risk excommunication? Were Catholic zoning board members disciplined by the Church for allowing adult bookstores in their communites?

If so, then I understand. It’s a consistent position against civil acceptance of all things that are considered sinful by the Church. If not, I have to wonder along with the OP at the difference regarding gay issues.

1968 was the turning point. The Pope released a document titled Humani Generis. The Church’s point to all Catholics? Don’t use the Pill or any artificial birth control. They knew that people would be tempted by the idea that they could have sex with no or little fear of pregnancy. The Church knew that the temptation would increase. But guess what? There were dissidents in the Catholic Church. A priest posted here not that long ago about how other priests were intimidated into signing a document at the time against Humani Generis. He refused. And the priest doing the intimidating, a former Marine, gave him an earful. And the Hippies and radicals showed up just in time to convince people that “free love” was the answer. Authority figures were wrong/bad. We all needed “freedom.”

The drug companies risked losing the sale of millions of birth control pills. The population control advocates were also concerned. Selling lots of birth control pills and convincing Catholic moms to have fewer kids - those were the goals. By 1970, dissidents within the Church were leaving in large numbers. In the 1970s, seminaries were telling new priests that birth control was to be left to the individual conscience of each parishioner. This, of course, was not the full Church teaching. That is being corrected now.

So little by little, Catholics trusted the wrong people. They listened to the wrong people. I was there. America, especially the media, in 1968 still strongly reflected Christian values in daily life. Then, the radicals and what they believed in, slowly and gradually became adopted and promoted by the media.

People today need to realize that too many trusting, compassionate Catholics were lied to by strangers in the late 1960s and 1970s. We were told, please, please, don’t let young women die at the hands of back alley abortionists! Please have mercy on the victims of rape and incest! I heard all this at the time. Of course, the Church was against abortion. But by subtle argument and even invoking God - This is the hardest decision a woman will ever have to make and is between her and her God - enough people were fooled.

Today the same sex marriage issue and what the Church holds as true is clearly defined. But again, through subtle and not so subtle argument, I’m hearing very similar things. Please, please let us do this. It’s for our happiness. Have compassion!

The Church, right now, is saying marriage is not just some arrangement between people who are willing. An encyclical has been written about it. But, the difference between the Church and the world is that while the Pope may be quoted a few times in the secular press, the prevailing view of the media is secular, dismissive and/or hostile toward religion in general and pagan or Agnostic.

I watched as behaviors that were on the fringes of society in the late 1950s and early 1960s gradually became popularized and are now being referred to as “alternative lifestyles.” What does that mean? Alternative compared to what? In that time period, divorce was rare. Abortion was rare. Dating meant no sex. There was smething called courtship, engagement and then marriage. You respected your parents. You stayed away from dope. Church was taken into our daily lives and not left in the Church building.

By the end of the 1960s, a bunch of colorfully dressed Hippies were yelling, We’re going to burn this country down! Off the pigs! (Kill the police.) These people wanted a Woodstock Nation. They wanted to abandon all that had gone before.

And what did we get? Porn. Divorce. Women’s Liberation = men are the enemy. A house divided against itself cannot stand. The radicals knew what they were doing.

The Catholic Church does not yell. It does not put on colorful clothes and run through the streets shouting some slogan. But today, the media is loudly yelling for immoral living 24/7 on every media device and physical publication available. The local newspaper has classifieds for people looking to commit adultery called “Wild Hearts.” Got that? Had that happened in 1968, a firestorm would have been directed at the editors of that paper.

Too many were gradually taught to be indifferent to sin. “Oh, that’s them, not you.” And people around the world, right now, are doing whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes. But now, they want to legalize sin? I don’t think that’s a good idea.

Finally, internet opinion culture has taught too many people that all opinions are valid, or even true. Which turns way too many things into shades of grey. There needs to be right and wrong, and the Church does recognize degrees of sin in some cases, but some things are intrinsically wrong. We need to know and understand this.

Peace,
Ed

 

[mkingdomlvr]

How much energy is too much? Why not stop the downward spiral here and then work backward rather than misdirecting the argument away from this particular grave sin?

Not sure of your point but the Church is not against so-called “gays”. The Church teaches all persons, including homosexual persons, should be treated with dignity. That does not mean endorsing bad behavior.

Civil divorce is not always a moral offense as the CCC explains.

That would depend on the circumstance. As you know there such a thing as licit cooperation with evil. The culpability depends on how close one is to the source and what type of cooperation is involved. How does that relate to this topic?

Again, that depends on several factors. This is why we have a moral theology tradition.

I am sorry, but your arguments do not prove the Church should not speak the truth. What you seem to want is some form of moral equivalency where none really exists.

I never said the Church should not speak the truth. I simply asked if the Church was as active on other sexual sins as it has been recently regarding gay marriage. I wasn’t politically aware enough at 6 to know if there was the kind of energy expended against divorce and adultery. My mother said that there were discussions against the Pill, but she does not recall the clergy telling people that could not work for the drug companies in NJ that were producing the Pill. (I called her to ask, I was interested) She didn’t recall anything of the level of what we see against gay marriage in regard to adultery or divorce.

I’m not looking for moral equivalency, I’m only interested because there is this common perception that has developed regarding the Catholic Church and homosexuality and I wondered if the emphasis on this issue over other sexual sins has anything to do with that.

I would hazard a guess that if you did a poll, most Americans and probably a good portion of Catholics would say that the Catholic Church believes homosexuality itself is sinful.

 

[CatholicBloke]

I never said the Church should not speak the truth. I simply asked if the Church was as active on other sexual sins as it has been recently regarding gay marriage. I wasn’t politically aware enough at 6 to know if there was the kind of energy expended against divorce and adultery. My mother said that there were discussions against the Pill, but she does not recall the clergy telling people that could not work for the drug companies in NJ that were producing the Pill. (I called her to ask, I was interested) She didn’t recall anything of the level of what we see against gay marriage in regard to adultery or divorce.

I’m not looking for moral equivalency, I’m only interested because there is this common perception that has developed regarding the Catholic Church and homosexuality and I wondered if the emphasis on this issue over other sexual sins has anything to do with that.

I would hazard a guess that if you did a poll, most Americans and probably a good portion of Catholics would say that the Catholic Church believes homosexuality itself is sinful.

I am actually glad that you and the OP ask because you both seem to have this notion that the Catholic church spends too much of it’s time battling homosexuality and not enough of it’s time battling other things. But really, you need to attend Catholic masses or read Catholic publications if you want to make a judgment call here. I have been going to mass every week for my entire life and I would definitely say that homosexual opposition has never been a key message. (I have gone to probably 25 to 30 different churches by the way, so it isn’t just one priest either).

I would say that key messages include: control against impurity, advice on how to prevent temptations for deadly sins, how to practice to become virtuous and many lessons on the bible, the church and the life of Jesus.

Key political messages have been: opposition to abortion, euthanasia and birth control. <— those are the political messages that I hear often in church. Same sex marriage comes up during election times, when it is on the ballet. But homosexuality is just lumped together with other impure acts like fornication, masterbation, pornography and so on…

It seems like you and the OP are lumping all grassroots political Christian religious groups together with the Catholic church. Sure the Catholic church opposes homosexual actions; they are impure after all. And sure, the Catholic church does what it can to speak up to prevent same sex marriage; they are sinful but also seriously detrimental to society. But, if you pay attention to CNN, you’ll see that the Catholic church is mainly in the news for it’s opposition to abortion, euthanasia and birth control. So, I don’t understand what the misunderstanding is. What exactly are you referring to when you say that the church spends too much time on the issue?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I am actually glad that you and the OP ask because you both seem to have this notion that the Catholic church spends too much of it’s time battling homosexuality and not enough of it’s time battling other things. But really, you need to attend Catholic masses or read Catholic publications if you want to make a judgment call here. I have been going to mass every week for my entire life and I would definitely say that homosexual opposition has never been a key message. (I have gone to probably 25 to 30 different churches by the way, so it isn’t just one priest either).

I would say that key messages include: control against impurity, advice on how to prevent temptations for deadly sins, how to practice to become virtuous and many lessons on the bible, the church and the life of Jesus.

Key political messages have been: opposition to abortion, euthanasia and birth control. <— those are the political messages that I hear often in church. Same sex marriage comes up during election times, when it is on the ballet. But homosexuality is just lumped together with other impure acts like fornication, masterbation, pornography and so on…

It seems like you and the OP are lumping all grassroots political Christian religious groups together with the Catholic church. Sure the Catholic church opposes homosexual actions; they are impure after all. And sure, the Catholic church does what it can to speak up to prevent same sex marriage; they are sinful but also seriously detrimental to society. But, if you pay attention to CNN, you’ll see that the Catholic church is mainly in the news for it’s opposition to abortion, euthanasia and birth control. So, I don’t understand what the misunderstanding is. What exactly are you referring to when you say that the church spends too much time on the issue?

You weren’t in Florida this fall were you? I heard about gay marriage at every mass I attended here from September to November. I heard condemnation of politicians and others who did not support voting “yes” on our Amendment 2. I heard that anyone who did not vote Yes on Amendment 2 could no longer consider themselves Catholics, and were probably going to Hell. (and yes, this was ALL from the pulpit) I was shocked in a way, because I had never heard specific politicians names mentioned before. I heard plenty of sermons on gay marriage in NJ as well, but not as forceful. The Catholic church there also fought very hard against the NJ civil union law, and we heard a lot about how evil that was.

I have never, in my entire life heard a sermon against divorce,adultery, pornography or any other sexual sin. Not in NJ and not here. I’ve never heard one about the Pill, but I’ve heard plenty about abortion.

Obviously, your experience is different-but that doesn’t make mine or the OP’s invalid.

 

[jlhargus]

Lately I have been wondering why the gay issue seems to be such a big topic on this site. Coming out is one of the hardest things to do. You start to wonder what will happen to the friendships you have made, will people look at you differently, will they even talk to you anymore? If you still live at home are you going to be kicked out because of traditionalist parents that think your way of living is sinful? Is your mother going to cry because she somehow ‘messed up’ raising you? What about your siblings? Your younger brother that always looked up to you, is he going to hate you when he understands?
your mind starts swirling with all of these questions before you have even told anyone.
Just when you feel sick to your stomach and you need a place to go a place that understands, a place where you feel welcome anytime, anyday, a place that can provide a bit of comfort when all else fails. You go to chruch. You wish to seek some sort of comfort but even the church fails you.

I know the Catholic stance on homosexuality please don’t recite it. We are people too. I had a friend in college that when to a church seeking some understanding, some compassion from the one place that she always felt welcome. The priest listened, gave her a lecture about homosexuality and said “I’ll pray for you”. That is when she lost her faith.

We are not looking to be prayed for, just understood and accepted.
I don’t go to church anymore because I don’t feel welcome. Nobody at my church knows of my sexuality but I feel out of place, like a daisy among tulips. So please, before you go on long rants about grave sins and start quoteing things your the ones that make me feel unwelcome. I’m not trying to be mean, honestly, I don’t want to offend but some of the comments I read make me a bit uneasy about every attending church again.

There are many, who want to be faithful to our Lord. Yet many Catholics must struggle daily with their own sinful sexual desires. Some days may be a breeze some days a bear. but by the grace of God we pick up our cross and follow Christ. If we fail, then by God’s grace we repent go to confession and pick up the cross again. We all have a cross to carry, some crosses are heavier than others, so the reward will be greater.

There are all kinds of so called Churches out there who would accept you and your life style, if all you want is approval and not salvation. What good does it do for any Church to teach contrary to Christ’s teaching? It may make you feel good, welcome, accepted, and approved of and deceive you into thinking it’s OK, but in the end it will not save you. Is that love? As far as feeling unwelcome, that’s because you recognize the truth and feel out of place as you should. Just as a heterosexual who lives in adultery should feel out of place and unwelcome to receive communion, if he were trying to prove to everyone God approves his sin.

My advise live the way you must, continue to go to Church and pray. Don’t try to deceive yourself or others that God will accept sin, always remain humble before God admitting to yourself and others especially God you are a sinner who needs his help. God will give you the grace to see the light when he knows you are ready to receive it. Don’t take communion as this would not be to your good but to your detriment, unless of course you repent and go to confession.

 

[eichenb2]

How much energy is too much? Why not stop the downward spiral here and then work backward rather than misdirecting the argument away from this particular grave sin?

Not sure of your point but the Church is not against so-called “gays”. The Church teaches all persons, including homosexual persons, should be treated with dignity. That does not mean endorsing bad behavior.

Civil divorce is not always a moral offense as the CCC explains.

That would depend on the circumstance. As you know there such a thing as licit cooperation with evil. The culpability depends on how close one is to the source and what type of cooperation is involved. How does that relate to this topic?

Again, that depends on several factors. This is why we have a moral theology tradition.

I am sorry, but your arguments do not prove the Church should not speak the truth. What you seem to want is some form of moral equivalency where none really exists.

Buen Hecho!

 

[CatholicBloke]

You weren’t in Florida this fall were you? I heard about gay marriage at every mass I attended here from September to November. I heard condemnation of politicians and others who did not support voting “yes” on our Amendment 2. I heard that anyone who did not vote Yes on Amendment 2 could no longer consider themselves Catholics, and were probably going to Hell. (and yes, this was ALL from the pulpit) I was shocked in a way, because I had never heard specific politicians names mentioned before. I heard plenty of sermons on gay marriage in NJ as well, but not as forceful. The Catholic church there also fought very hard against the NJ civil union law, and we heard a lot about how evil that was.

I have never, in my entire life heard a sermon against divorce,adultery, pornography or any other sexual sin. Not in NJ and not here. I’ve never heard one about the Pill, but I’ve heard plenty about abortion.

Obviously, your experience is different-but that doesn’t make mine or the OP’s invalid.

I did say that it is a church topic when it is on the ballet; and it should be. The church has a responsibility to promote a righteous society. As for people going to hell who support it, it is not like this is the only sinful thing someone would do and they end up going to hell for it. If someone votes to support something that is sooooo clearly contradictory to God’s teachings, then that is usually an indication that this person has made the decision to reject Jesus in other parts of their lives as well. So I agree. Someone who “could” support same sex marriage, probably is not setting themselves up for heaven.

I am now pretty confused about why you think that the sermons in your churches have not talked about impurity. Perhaps they were general about it? But battling against impurity and keeping the commandments touch specifically on divorce + remarriage, adultery, pornography and sexual sins. Impure acts = sexual sins. Surely, you have heard sermons about those topics.

As for the pill (or birth control in general), even if you never heard the church’s opposition in the masses you attend (which would be incredibly surprising), the church’s public opposition to birth control has been covered in the news time and time again. Within the last month, the pope made headlines for opposing condom distribution in Africa.

In any case, the fact remains that the church spends plenty of time on other topics, sexual or non-sexual.

 

[CatholicBloke]

I did say that it is a church topic when it is on the ballet; and it should be. .

Haha. I meant ballot. I wasn’t suggesting there is controversy caused by same sex marriage ballets… haha.

 

[Jack17]

well I just came out, and I guess my parents are fine with being gay. I was expecting more drama.

Well it’s a sin in the catholic church and cannot be change unless somehow the Virgin Mary makes an appearance in San Francisco saying gay actions and marriage is fine… With a rainbow gown included with a huge rainbow above her.

 

[St_Francis]

Lately I have been wondering why the gay issue seems to be such a big topic on this site. Coming out is one of the hardest things to do. You start to wonder what will happen to the friendships you have made, will people look at you differently, will they even talk to you anymore? If you still live at home are you going to be kicked out because of traditionalist parents that think your way of living is sinful? Is your mother going to cry because she somehow ‘messed up’ raising you? What about your siblings? Your younger brother that always looked up to you, is he going to hate you when he understands?
your mind starts swirling with all of these questions before you have even told anyone.
Just when you feel sick to your stomach and you need a place to go a place that understands, a place where you feel welcome anytime, anyday, a place that can provide a bit of comfort when all else fails. You go to chruch. You wish to seek some sort of comfort but even the church fails you.

I know the Catholic stance on homosexuality please don’t recite it. We are people too. I had a friend in college that when to a church seeking some understanding, some compassion from the one place that she always felt welcome. The priest listened, gave her a lecture about homosexuality and said “I’ll pray for you”. That is when she lost her faith.

We are not looking to be prayed for, just understood and accepted.
I don’t go to church anymore because I don’t feel welcome. Nobody at my church knows of my sexuality but I feel out of place, like a daisy among tulips. So please, before you go on long rants about grave sins and start quoteing things your the ones that make me feel unwelcome. I’m not trying to be mean, honestly, I don’t want to offend but some of the comments I read make me a bit uneasy about every attending church again.

You seem to have named yourself bi and blessed, which might indicate that your attraction is to members of either sex.

I don’t really understand the problem you are having. The fact that you are attracted to inappropriate people is not in and of itself a sin. You are certainly in a better position than someone who is attracted *only *to inappropriate people, no? All you really have to do is to treat your attraction to members of the same sex as yourself as temptations and not act on them.

I would say that many people who feel uncomfortable in church feel that way not because they are tempted, but because they are in a holy place and have been acting in a sinful manner, if only giving in to and entertaining sinful thoughts. This happens to all sinners who are not yet willing to renounce their sins. (I’m not saying that this applies to you, but that it often happens.)

The fact that you say that you are homosexual or bi-sexual and that letting people know about this is important to you indicates that you are following the line of the licentious people in this country who want everyone to let everything hang out. The tone of your entire post indicates that you want to be able to give in to your temptations and have us accept that type of action. But that is not what the Church is about. What we are supposed to do is to work first toward our own salvation, and then to help those around us achieve salvation. It will not help anyone to achieve salvation if we accept their sin, will it? It will only give them a false sense of security.

I think that you need to decide whether you want to act out your temptations or decide to overcome them. The Church can help you with the latter, but would be hypocritical if helping you to do the former.

 

[YipYupYep]

We are not looking to be prayed for, just understood and accepted.

Thats a tough one. I already understand more than I need to know about same sex people sodomizing each other. I dont want to know any more.

That part about being accepted. I should except everyone as a human person. Gay straight or indifferent. However, gay sex. Sodomy, is something that I can not except. It’s against my religion.

Any Catholic that would accept your life style is in a real sense leading you astray.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I did say that it is a church topic when it is on the ballet; and it should be. The church has a responsibility to promote a righteous society. As for people going to hell who support it, it is not like this is the only sinful thing someone would do and they end up going to hell for it. If someone votes to support something that is sooooo clearly contradictory to God’s teachings, then that is usually an indication that this person has made the decision to reject Jesus in other parts of their lives as well. So I agree. Someone who “could” support same sex marriage, probably is not setting themselves up for heaven.

I am now pretty confused about why you think that the sermons in your churches have not talked about impurity. Perhaps they were general about it? But battling against impurity and keeping the commandments touch specifically on divorce + remarriage, adultery, pornography and sexual sins. Impure acts = sexual sins. Surely, you have heard sermons about those topics.

As for the pill (or birth control in general), even if you never heard the church’s opposition in the masses you attend (which would be incredibly surprising), the church’s public opposition to birth control has been covered in the news time and time again. Within the last month, the pope made headlines for opposing condom distribution in Africa.

In any case, the fact remains that the church spends plenty of time on other topics, sexual or non-sexual.

Your church may spend “plenty of time on other topics”, but that is not true everywhere. Other people have experienced a different environment in their parishes. I would never imply that you were not telling the truth or question your experience simply because it does not mirror my own.

I don’t believe that anyone here on earth should be stating that anyone else is “going to Hell”. I was taught that it was God’s decision who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell. To me, that’s taking upon ourselves a decision that belongs to God alone. God’s ways are not our ways, and to impose our decisions on who deserves to burn would be Pride in my book.

I was hoping that the anti-gay language would tone down after the election, but so far that has not been the case in the parish I’ve been attending. Frankly, listening to how evil gay people want to take over the world doesn’t really help me serve God better or treat the people in my life better.

 

[fix]

I never said the Church should not speak the truth. I simply asked if the Church was as active on other sexual sins as it has been recently regarding gay marriage. I wasn’t politically aware enough at 6 to know if there was the kind of energy expended against divorce and adultery. My mother said that there were discussions against the Pill, but she does not recall the clergy telling people that could not work for the drug companies in NJ that were producing the Pill. (I called her to ask, I was interested) She didn’t recall anything of the level of what we see against gay marriage in regard to adultery or divorce.

There has been a crisis in catechesis for decades. Our leaders have not always spoken out publicly as much as I would like, but now at least some are finally taking a stand. It is not that this one item is being blown out of proportion. It is that we as a culture are so immersed in moral relativism that any talk of correction is seen as over the top.

As for people working for corporations that produce medication that can be used for immoral purposes I would say that goes to my point about licit or illicit cooperation with evil. There is a big moral difference between a Catholic politician supporting laws that contradict the natural moral law and individuals working for a company that produces pills that could be used for contracepted sex.

Would you say a mail carrier is as morally responsible for delivering porn magazines as the man who takes the pics?

I’m not looking for moral equivalency, I’m only interested because there is this common perception that has developed regarding the Catholic Church and homosexuality and I wondered if the emphasis on this issue over other sexual sins has anything to do with that.

I would hazard a guess that if you did a poll, most Americans and probably a good portion of Catholics would say that the Catholic Church believes homosexuality itself is sinful.

Perception is always a problem.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

One of the reasons I asked about the stance on issues back in the 60’s was because I wondered if a stronger stance then would have changed anything now. If the response to the explosion of divorce had been as strong as the response to same sex marriage, would that have changed anything?

 

[fix]

One of the reasons I asked about the stance on issues back in the 60’s was because I wondered if a stronger stance then would have changed anything now. If the response to the explosion of divorce had been as strong as the response to same sex marriage, would that have changed anything?

We cannot turn back time. All we have is what we have currently. We should work to turn things around now.

 

[CatholicBloke]

Your church may spend “plenty of time on other topics”, but that is not true everywhere. Other people have experienced a different environment in their parishes. I would never imply that you were not telling the truth or question your experience simply because it does not mirror my own.

I don’t believe that anyone here on earth should be stating that anyone else is “going to Hell”. I was taught that it was God’s decision who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell. To me, that’s taking upon ourselves a decision that belongs to God alone. God’s ways are not our ways, and to impose our decisions on who deserves to burn would be Pride in my book.

I was hoping that the anti-gay language would tone down after the election, but so far that has not been the case in the parish I’ve been attending. Frankly, listening to how evil gay people want to take over the world doesn’t really help me serve God better or treat the people in my life better.

Seriously, I have gone to a lot of churches. I move every 6 months. I have to look for a new parish each time, so I test different places out. Honestly, you must have a unique experience. Or perhaps Florida is unique, I don’t know… What I do know is that in the numerous sermons I have heard in the East and West of MI, TN, SC, GA and Tokyo, I have “never once” heard a sermon “centered” on homosexuality. I have heard it brought up in a few, but it was never a concentration. Maybe other people can shed some light on this. Has anyone else heard these “evil gay people want to take over the world” sermons? Maybe your priest sees a need to bring up homosexual impurity because of the high concentration of the sin in the area… Try a new church if you want to hear fresh sermons. Don’t blame the whole catholic society because of your priest’s personal messages. I am currently going to a Franciscan church and the priests are all brilliant! I have never seen so much talent in one church! And after 4 months, no talks of homosexuality. If they do though, I’ll come back on here and post about it.

And you are right! I always remind people that we never “truly” know who is going to hell and who is not going. But, you are wrong if you think that Jesus did not lay out exactly how we should act. So, if someone lives their life doing something that Jesus said will send them to hell and they don’t repent, they are going to hell. It is perfectly fine to discuss things in that manner. They are going to hell because Jesus said so, not because I decided. That is not Pride. However, I would never say “Joe Homo” is going to hell. Even Hitler could have had a change of heart and his suicide could have been staged, who knows? Only God.

I don’t know… I still don’t think this topic has any merit. I have heard awesome sermons centered on resistance to impurity and adultery and none that “center” on homosexuality. This is exactly this is exactly the opposite to what you are saying, so I don’t get it… Please someone give us some more opinions. It may just be that you need to have some experiences in other parishes.

Thank you for the discussion though!

 

[Luke_K]

Seriously, I have gone to a lot of churches. I move every 6 months. I have to look for a new parish each time, so I test different places out. Honestly, you must have a unique experience. Or perhaps Florida is unique, I don’t know… What I do know is that in the numerous sermons I have heard in the East and West of MI, TN, SC, GA and Tokyo, I have “never once” heard a sermon “centered” on homosexuality. I have heard it brought up in a few, but it was never a concentration. Maybe other people can shed some light on this. Has anyone else heard these “evil gay people want to take over the world” sermons? Maybe your priest sees a need to bring up homosexual impurity because of the high concentration of the sin in the area… Try a new church if you want to hear fresh sermons. Don’t blame the whole catholic society because of your priest’s personal messages. I am currently going to a Franciscan church and the priests are all brilliant! I have never seen so much talent in one church! And after 4 months, no talks of homosexuality. If they do though, I’ll come back on here and post about it.

I don’t know… I still don’t think this topic has any merit. I have heard awesome sermons centered on resistance to impurity and adultery and none that “center” on homosexuality. This is exactly this is exactly the opposite to what you are saying, so I don’t get it… Please someone give us some more opinions. It may just be that you need to have some experiences in other parishes.

Thank you for the discussion though!

In my whole life (19 years), attending about 13 different parishes (I don’t know if that’s a lot, I’m just saying), I don’t recall EVER hearing a homily about homosexuality. Not even now after my home-state of Iowa legalized same-sex marriage.

The priests I’ve experienced just talk about the day’s readings. I would actually like to hear a talk about current issues once in a while!

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Seriously, I have gone to a lot of churches. I move every 6 months. I have to look for a new parish each time, so I test different places out. Honestly, you must have a unique experience. Or perhaps Florida is unique, I don’t know… What I do know is that in the numerous sermons I have heard in the East and West of MI, TN, SC, GA and Tokyo, I have “never once” heard a sermon “centered” on homosexuality. I have heard it brought up in a few, but it was never a concentration. Maybe other people can shed some light on this. Has anyone else heard these “evil gay people want to take over the world” sermons? Maybe your priest sees a need to bring up homosexual impurity because of the high concentration of the sin in the area… Try a new church if you want to hear fresh sermons. Don’t blame the whole catholic society because of your priest’s personal messages. I am currently going to a Franciscan church and the priests are all brilliant! I have never seen so much talent in one church! And after 4 months, no talks of homosexuality. If they do though, I’ll come back on here and post about it.

And you are right! I always remind people that we never “truly” know who is going to hell and who is not going. But, you are wrong if you think that Jesus did not lay out exactly how we should act. So, if someone lives their life doing something that Jesus said will send them to hell and they don’t repent, they are going to hell. It is perfectly fine to discuss things in that manner. They are going to hell because Jesus said so, not because I decided. That is not Pride. However, I would never say “Joe Homo” is going to hell. Even Hitler could have had a change of heart and his suicide could have been staged, who knows? Only God.

I don’t know… I still don’t think this topic has any merit. I have heard awesome sermons centered on resistance to impurity and adultery and none that “center” on homosexuality. This is exactly this is exactly the opposite to what you are saying, so I don’t get it… Please someone give us some more opinions. It may just be that you need to have some experiences in other parishes.

Thank you for the discussion though!

I am looking for another parish, and perhaps it is just that one place, but then I did have similar experiences in NJ when the civil union legislation was coming up.

There was also a push during a recruiting drive for the Catholic School. The point was made that Catholics should send their kids to that school to avoid the “gay agenda” in the public schools. When that is the main reason given-not the faith formation or academics, it’s a little odd, don’t you think?

To be honest, my favorite parish was a small place that said the Latin Mass. The sermons there were always about the readings. I miss that.

 

[edwest2]

One of the reasons I asked about the stance on issues back in the 60’s was because I wondered if a stronger stance then would have changed anything now. If the response to the explosion of divorce had been as strong as the response to same sex marriage, would that have changed anything?

In the 1960s, I was surrounded by many people who lived good lives. Lives of true Christian witness. The ACLU was not yet yelling about creches in front of public buildings and Christianity was given a lot of respect. However, once porn was legalized around 1970, followed by the promotion of adultery, now called ‘swinging.’ A lot of people became confused. Too many young people thought, “Hey. It’s legal so it must be OK.”

Between 1933 and 1973, there was a National Catholic Legion of Decency. And during the 1960s, there was zero talk about sex or sexual situations on TV. But once the Legion of Decency began to fade, Hollywood started promoting immorality. Artists and Intellectuals preferred “freedom.” The so-called “Sexual Revolution” of the late 1960s was not about love, it was about sex. Sex without love or, at least without marriage.

By 1978, Gloria Steinem and the National Organization for Women were denouncing all men as the enemy. Miss Steinem published Ms. Magazine, a version of Playboy for radical feminists that claimed to hate ‘male chauvenist pigs’ but appeared to want and promote ‘female chauvenist pigs.’ By promoting fear, suspicion and disrespect between men and women, those poor, scared, confused women began to view their husbands and boyfriends as the enemy. Motherhood was put down – women were told to get a career. You can still read about the ridiculous ‘glass ceiling’ that exists in corporations that prohibits women from gaining ‘power.’

So, yes. The Church had nothing good to say about divorce. Pope John Paul II wrote about the problems caused by that type of feminism that distorts the true meaning of the relationship between the sexes.

One other thing I need to point out. In the 1960s and early 1970s, most people, including Catholics, had a lot of respect for authority and the government. When some experts came on TV saying good things about questionable lifestyles, I think too many of us were willing to listen. It didn’t sound all that bad at first. Most of us were not looking for excuses to do immoral things. But as the 1970s turned into the 1980s, we began to notice more of our neighbors and coworkers divorcing. Hollywood began doing movies and TV shows where divorce became just ‘something that happens.’ So-called experts began putting out books with titles like How To Have a Healthy Divorce. I was confused. It was wrong. I was led to believe most of these divorces had to happen.

Between 1968 and 1988, I began to realize that the respect Christianity and morality once had, had given way to a totally dysfunctional culture. A shallow, selfish, it’s all about me reality. No, not everybody went along.

I think when people write about the Church taking a stronger stance they forget that Christ did not win converts by hitting them over the head. As a good friend told me, You can’t force someone to love you. God, and the Church which is called to imitate Him, does not force us to love Him or keep His commandments. We aren’t visited by the local priest if we miss Mass to get scolded.

Hope this helps,
Ed