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larkin31
Guest
Does this mean that you comment to other adults about their private consensual sexual practices or choices? Do you do this to, say, unmarried but sexually active adults?
Gay Episcopal Bishop Says St. Paul Was Condemning Homosexual Acts by Heterosexuals
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Well that’s just awesome. Best of luck to you! I respect English, History, and anything linguistically-related…I’m a Liberal Studies BA grad with a bilingual Spanish teaching credential. When I go back to Fresno State down the road, it’ll be for a Master’s in History for sure…Hang in there!
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Eris_Discordia
Guest
Nice! yeah, I need to hang in there, school is rough…
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Are you actually a believer in pagan religion? Are you into the Gregory Hill 1950’s pagan religion that worshipped Eris or is that just your screen name because you’re into mythology?
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I can’t speak for Choy, but I myself do. While I don’t do it at work for professional reasons, I have spoken to several folks who tell me they are cohabitating or having sex out of wedlock and try to witness my faith to them. Infidelity and cohabitation are equally as sinful as the sodomy of the gay community.
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
And do others witness to you about your sins? Do they point out where you are going wrong, and have you ever been singled out, or worse, accused of worse transgression and shunned by others?
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
Neither your Church or mine “endorse” any sin. Our Churches however, teach redemption… not defamation, misinformation, isolation or fear. I am glad that you have significantly amended you line and mode of argument in this thread since you began. I hope my contribution has assisted you in doing this
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larkin31
Guest
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
**Since my last post above at 2.24am in the Northern Hemisphere - but not here down under, I have been inundated with messages from Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant bretheren… pointing out that I have misrepresented the Roman Catholic Church on Homosexuality.
I apologise to all my Catholic bretheren for this misrepresentation - sincerely and in love.
I was reminded that many homosexual people are actively denied the sacrament of communion or the Holy Eucharist in the Roman Church.
This is sadly true.
We Eastern Orthodox believe that a sincere confession and repentance entitles any class of sinner to patrake in the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist.
We see the Eucharist as one of the most (perhaps the most) powerful scraments of the Church here on earth.
We believe in it’s restorative, healing and redemptive power - and given a sincere confession and repentance do not deny it to any human being who asks for it within our communion.
It is pointed out to me, that Roman Catholics do deny it (the Holy Eucharist) to homosexuals.
Whilst I am seddenned by this - I apologise to my Catholic bretheren here for misrepresenting Catholic teaching and practice vis a vis homosexual bretheren.
I was also reminded of the actions of Our Lord Jesus Christ - who when approached by a woman for healing who was a prostitute - allowed her to touch the hem of his garment on the basis that she, a sinner, believed in faith thet she would be healed by His Divine Grace and Mercy.
Our Lord allowed this, she touched his garment and was healed by Him. Only then, did he exhort her to “go now and sin no more”… This is his exhortation to all mankind. Not just to heterosexuals.
I rejoice in the fact that the Holy Orthodox Church adheres to the example of Our Lord Jesus Christ.**
I apologise to all my Catholic bretheren for this misrepresentation - sincerely and in love.
I was reminded that many homosexual people are actively denied the sacrament of communion or the Holy Eucharist in the Roman Church.
This is sadly true.
We Eastern Orthodox believe that a sincere confession and repentance entitles any class of sinner to patrake in the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist.
We see the Eucharist as one of the most (perhaps the most) powerful scraments of the Church here on earth.
We believe in it’s restorative, healing and redemptive power - and given a sincere confession and repentance do not deny it to any human being who asks for it within our communion.
It is pointed out to me, that Roman Catholics do deny it (the Holy Eucharist) to homosexuals.
Whilst I am seddenned by this - I apologise to my Catholic bretheren here for misrepresenting Catholic teaching and practice vis a vis homosexual bretheren.
I was also reminded of the actions of Our Lord Jesus Christ - who when approached by a woman for healing who was a prostitute - allowed her to touch the hem of his garment on the basis that she, a sinner, believed in faith thet she would be healed by His Divine Grace and Mercy.
Our Lord allowed this, she touched his garment and was healed by Him. Only then, did he exhort her to “go now and sin no more”… This is his exhortation to all mankind. Not just to heterosexuals.
I rejoice in the fact that the Holy Orthodox Church adheres to the example of Our Lord Jesus Christ.**
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choy
Guest
you always remind people of what is right, based on the teaching of Jesus and His Church
if one were to open up to you their private lives, then you should as a good Christian lead them to Christ in counsel.
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choy
Guest
are we only to do good when others do good?
no! we should do good and whats right regardless of what others do or say.
Jesus asked us to love one another. if you let someone remain in sin, is that loving that person?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
my God! my God! that is all i can say.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
so, were these men gays then?
what is difference between gays of that time and gays of our time?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
here i have a question: if the Bible is the sole authority of Faith for protestants, how come the Bible has no authority to stop these kind of thing?
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
Just as there are Catholics who ignore certain teachings of the RCC, there are Protestants (and Anglicans) who sometimes ignore or, in this case, re-interpret the Bible, stretching it so far that it snaps back on them. Too bad that, in this case, it is done by a bishop. As I have said earlier, I actually appreciate the bishop’s pushing the limits, because this helps us define what the limits are.
The RCC has had its own wayward bishop (actually an archbishop) who went back and forth between being Catholic and being Moonie. I think the break is more or less final now.
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aspirant
Guest
This is most certainly not true. Any Catholic who has repented and confessed his sins may approach and receive the Eucharist. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, among other Catholic documents, actively encourages homosexual persons to receive the grace of the sacraments, and I personally know homosexually inclined Catholics who do. (cf. the CDF’s “Letter on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons,” the USCCB’s “Always Our Children.”)
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larkin31
Guest
“open up to you”? I am not talking about friends seeking counsel–that case is easy.
Gays, who demonstrate affection for a partner in public in the same way that heteros do (holding hands, kissing goodbye), are publicly all around us. Do you proselytize to them or not?
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choy
Guest
are you talking about indiscriminately chastizing people just for the sake of it?
to properly evangelize people is to approach them in a manner effective. if i see two gays making out in a park and i come to them and tell them what they are committing is a sin, they will shun me and the my purpose will be all for naught. instead, i should approach those in sin in a manner that they will open their eyes and minds to God.
sometimes you lie in wait for the perfect opportunity. because a direct approach may lead them even further from God
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Wow, Andrew Phillip, where to begin. I will try to address your progressive rant in blue…
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1
When did I ever say that gays should leave a particular church? When did I promote fear of gays or hatred of them? And when did I equate them to rapists?
Sorry to point out the obvious GH, but you did… repeatedly in this thread.
There are predators of heterosexual and homosexual inclinations. I never said anyone should leave a church? Please show me where I said that.
Your words of advice to a forum member, worried about her children’s contact with homosexual people in the Church:
“…Wise to take your time! Have you considered an ACNA or TAC Anglican parish, something more in line with traditional morality and orthodox Christianity rather than TEC?”…
In another comment to her, in the same context, you advise her to think “long and hard” before committing to the TEC.
If all Christians did this… homosexual Christians would be isolated and shunned completely.
Proposterous and silly, all these comments. I NEVER implied that nobody should have contact with homosexuals. I merely said that one should think long and hard about entering a denomination that openly, proudly, and loudy TOUTS the gay lifestyle as normal and something to be encouraged. TEC endorses the gay lifestyle completely and sees it as God-given blessings. You also left out how I mentioned their accepting attitude toward abortion, cohabitation, remarriage after divorce, and other sins. You usually leave that stuff out…Why would you expect me, as a Roman Catholic, to go against my Church, the catechism, and deposit of faith and embrace a sin like homosexuality and recommend that a person join a denomination that supports the sin? I also never said gays should be shunned. that’s an inference you’re happy to draw. Homosexuals should receive the same love as any Catholic, just not acceptance of their sexual lifestyle. I would hope that any parish that is worth a darn would have ministries and counseling and outreach to gays, adultery recovery, drug addiction, pornography addiction, and other sins. I don’t single out being gay. But let’s think long and hard here, hmmm, what’s this thread about? HOMOSEXUALITY, right? We’re focused on this sin because that’s what the thread is about, correct? I never said gays should be put through an inquisition, I merely state that gays should be taught they are loved, but their sin is not. They should be taught with honesty and love. Honesty…honesty…and the truth is that actively gay living is sinful. You might not like to stomach that Biblical and ecclesiastical truth but it’s nevertheless the truth. I don’t want gays shunned. But if it makes you feel better to think me and anyone else who follows Catholic teaching a biggoted hate-monger, knock yourself out.
homosexuals should be celibate and remain Catholic. And if they fall off the wagon they should go immediately to confession and return to the sacraments. . Never in my life have I said they are all going to hell and should leave the Church and go kill themselves .
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1
When did I ever say that gays should leave a particular church? When did I promote fear of gays or hatred of them? And when did I equate them to rapists?
Sorry to point out the obvious GH, but you did… repeatedly in this thread.
There are predators of heterosexual and homosexual inclinations. I never said anyone should leave a church? Please show me where I said that.
Your words of advice to a forum member, worried about her children’s contact with homosexual people in the Church:
“…Wise to take your time! Have you considered an ACNA or TAC Anglican parish, something more in line with traditional morality and orthodox Christianity rather than TEC?”…
In another comment to her, in the same context, you advise her to think “long and hard” before committing to the TEC.
If all Christians did this… homosexual Christians would be isolated and shunned completely.
Proposterous and silly, all these comments. I NEVER implied that nobody should have contact with homosexuals. I merely said that one should think long and hard about entering a denomination that openly, proudly, and loudy TOUTS the gay lifestyle as normal and something to be encouraged. TEC endorses the gay lifestyle completely and sees it as God-given blessings. You also left out how I mentioned their accepting attitude toward abortion, cohabitation, remarriage after divorce, and other sins. You usually leave that stuff out…Why would you expect me, as a Roman Catholic, to go against my Church, the catechism, and deposit of faith and embrace a sin like homosexuality and recommend that a person join a denomination that supports the sin? I also never said gays should be shunned. that’s an inference you’re happy to draw. Homosexuals should receive the same love as any Catholic, just not acceptance of their sexual lifestyle. I would hope that any parish that is worth a darn would have ministries and counseling and outreach to gays, adultery recovery, drug addiction, pornography addiction, and other sins. I don’t single out being gay. But let’s think long and hard here, hmmm, what’s this thread about? HOMOSEXUALITY, right? We’re focused on this sin because that’s what the thread is about, correct? I never said gays should be put through an inquisition, I merely state that gays should be taught they are loved, but their sin is not. They should be taught with honesty and love. Honesty…honesty…and the truth is that actively gay living is sinful. You might not like to stomach that Biblical and ecclesiastical truth but it’s nevertheless the truth. I don’t want gays shunned. But if it makes you feel better to think me and anyone else who follows Catholic teaching a biggoted hate-monger, knock yourself out.
homosexuals should be celibate and remain Catholic. And if they fall off the wagon they should go immediately to confession and return to the sacraments. . Never in my life have I said they are all going to hell and should leave the Church and go kill themselves .
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
This advice applies equally to all sinners… heterosexual and homosexual. Yet you continue to single out homosexuals. What theological basis do you have for doing this? It is hurtful to any sinner to have their sin elevated to such prominent status. You do not say heterosexuals should refrain from sin to remain Catholic
When did I say or imply otherwise? I’ve mentioned ad nauseum to you that adultery, porn addiction, drug abuse, and so many other sins are just as grave and objectionable to God. I’m not “singling out” homosexuals for pete’s sake, that’s what this thread is about, homosexuals…
Do you seriously think that I would endorse heterosexuals engaged in mortal sin to continue in their sins and take the sacraments? Do I even need to say that? Duh!? Anyone caught up in any serious sin should refrain from communion, use the Confessional, pray hard, grapple with their sin, and then approach the Blessed Eucharist, any sin, not just homosexuality…but again, that’s what the topic of this thread is…And what theological basis do I have for condemning homosexuality? Try Paul’s teaching on it, 2,000 years of Church theology teaching it is sinful, the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, and salvation history itself in Scripture showing us it is…
I also never said that any kid who comes in contact with gays will somehow pollute them.
Your words GH:
“…Just to get you thinking even harder, what if they come out with hard research that some men have brains that are hard-wired to pedophilia? What if pedophiles are predisposed in their genetic makeup or in their brains, etc. to rape little kids?”…
Here, you draw a direct and unambiguous comparison between homosexuality and paedophilia - and go as far as “child rape” when speaking to the same forum member.
You of course, refrain from any rational link between heterosexuality and the psychological disorder of heterosexual paedophilia… which is actually more prevalent in the population than homosexual paedophilia.
Wow-wee you draw inferences where there are none. I never once said a gay man is going to go rape a bunch of kids. Silliness. The poster stated an argument about genetic predisposition. The tired argument that being gay is ‘hard-wired’ and programmed, no free will, hardwired. I merely said what if we proved that pedophilia was ‘hard-wired,’ would we then sanction it as normal? Hard-wired could be used for anything, being a thief, being a gold-digger, being a glutton, you name it. I never said gays are rapists. You are indeed dramatic here. My argument, and I’m sticking to it, is that hard-wired DNA destiny-making is absurdity. We all have a thorn in our side and free will and plenty of grace to fight the good fight. But I know it makes you feel good to think I want to round up all the gays and have an inquisition.
But even worse than this - here you draw a line, which says that sexual orientation is morally and medically equivalent to the clear evidence that paedophilia is a psychological illness - and a crime. False and damaging.
What the Catholic Church teaches is that homosexuality is a struggle, a tough struggle, but it is DISORDERED and objectively sinful. Have you ever actually read the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church or are you reading Hans Kung and some off-the-wall liberal pamphlet from an Australian hippie commune from the 60’s?
I am a white, middle class male, politically conservative, aswell as a member of a conservative faith… I am no Hippie - but neither am I ignorant of these issues, and I do not advocate bigotted viewpoint upon them.
Bigot is your code word for anyone who disagrees with your assessments or opinions. I must be intolerant, hateful, evil, Darth Vader. Why? Because I don’t agree with Andrew Phillip!
Nowhere do I nor the Catholic Church advocate dumping gays into the fires of hell or labelling them as child predators or hating them. I never said I hated them?
You are right… neither the Catholic or Orthodox Churches argue as you have done in this forum.
they do indeed. Show me an Orthodox patriarch or Catholic cardinal or pope that says homosexuality is normal, something to be lauded and considered a blessing, and something that should be elevated to marriage…show me please…
Homosexuals are called to celibacy, prayer, overcoming their disorder, and hope for a new life in Christ. Their sin is a struggle much like pornography, adultery, greed, abortion, and all the other great sins plague the rest of us. They have a great challenge but also an exceedingly great reward with Our Lord if they stand victorious over this sin and are vigilant and faithful to the end. We all fall short of the glory of God, period.
When did I say or imply otherwise? I’ve mentioned ad nauseum to you that adultery, porn addiction, drug abuse, and so many other sins are just as grave and objectionable to God. I’m not “singling out” homosexuals for pete’s sake, that’s what this thread is about, homosexuals…
Do you seriously think that I would endorse heterosexuals engaged in mortal sin to continue in their sins and take the sacraments? Do I even need to say that? Duh!? Anyone caught up in any serious sin should refrain from communion, use the Confessional, pray hard, grapple with their sin, and then approach the Blessed Eucharist, any sin, not just homosexuality…but again, that’s what the topic of this thread is…And what theological basis do I have for condemning homosexuality? Try Paul’s teaching on it, 2,000 years of Church theology teaching it is sinful, the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, and salvation history itself in Scripture showing us it is…I also never said that any kid who comes in contact with gays will somehow pollute them.
Your words GH:
“…Just to get you thinking even harder, what if they come out with hard research that some men have brains that are hard-wired to pedophilia? What if pedophiles are predisposed in their genetic makeup or in their brains, etc. to rape little kids?”…
Here, you draw a direct and unambiguous comparison between homosexuality and paedophilia - and go as far as “child rape” when speaking to the same forum member.
You of course, refrain from any rational link between heterosexuality and the psychological disorder of heterosexual paedophilia… which is actually more prevalent in the population than homosexual paedophilia.
Wow-wee you draw inferences where there are none. I never once said a gay man is going to go rape a bunch of kids. Silliness. The poster stated an argument about genetic predisposition. The tired argument that being gay is ‘hard-wired’ and programmed, no free will, hardwired. I merely said what if we proved that pedophilia was ‘hard-wired,’ would we then sanction it as normal? Hard-wired could be used for anything, being a thief, being a gold-digger, being a glutton, you name it. I never said gays are rapists. You are indeed dramatic here. My argument, and I’m sticking to it, is that hard-wired DNA destiny-making is absurdity. We all have a thorn in our side and free will and plenty of grace to fight the good fight. But I know it makes you feel good to think I want to round up all the gays and have an inquisition.
But even worse than this - here you draw a line, which says that sexual orientation is morally and medically equivalent to the clear evidence that paedophilia is a psychological illness - and a crime. False and damaging.
What the Catholic Church teaches is that homosexuality is a struggle, a tough struggle, but it is DISORDERED and objectively sinful. Have you ever actually read the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church or are you reading Hans Kung and some off-the-wall liberal pamphlet from an Australian hippie commune from the 60’s?
I am a white, middle class male, politically conservative, aswell as a member of a conservative faith… I am no Hippie - but neither am I ignorant of these issues, and I do not advocate bigotted viewpoint upon them.
Bigot is your code word for anyone who disagrees with your assessments or opinions. I must be intolerant, hateful, evil, Darth Vader. Why? Because I don’t agree with Andrew Phillip!
Nowhere do I nor the Catholic Church advocate dumping gays into the fires of hell or labelling them as child predators or hating them. I never said I hated them?
You are right… neither the Catholic or Orthodox Churches argue as you have done in this forum.
they do indeed. Show me an Orthodox patriarch or Catholic cardinal or pope that says homosexuality is normal, something to be lauded and considered a blessing, and something that should be elevated to marriage…show me please…
Homosexuals are called to celibacy, prayer, overcoming their disorder, and hope for a new life in Christ. Their sin is a struggle much like pornography, adultery, greed, abortion, and all the other great sins plague the rest of us. They have a great challenge but also an exceedingly great reward with Our Lord if they stand victorious over this sin and are vigilant and faithful to the end. We all fall short of the glory of God, period.
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