Gay Episcopal Bishop Says St. Paul Was Condemning Homosexual Acts by Heterosexuals

[CMatt25]

How will their presence affect our children?

The safety of our children is a great concern; and it should be.

Keeping our children away from those of “same sex affection,” may protect them from the small percentage of homosexual pedophiles. Yet, keeping homosexuals out of our churches does not protect our children from heterosexual pedophiles.
Anna

How do we keep homosexuals away from our children in the greater society? They could be your neighbor who might save your children from a burning fire someday. Just a thought.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Wise to take your time! Have you considered an ACNA or TAC Anglican parish, something more in line with traditional morality and orthodox Christianity rather than TEC?

I do really like this particular Episcopal Church. I will keep asking questions.

I’m not planning on rushing into conversion, though. This will take prayerful consideration on many levels.

Anna

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

**What ever the viewpoints and arguments about sexual orientation in the Church, I think it is always a mistake to automatically associate these (heterosexual or homosexual) with paedophilia.

There is no evidence that either heterosexual or homosexual orientation leads to paedophilia by virtue of that sexual orientation.

There is however, abundant scientific evidence to show that complete abstinence from adult sexual relationships (homosexual and heterosexual) does often lead to paedophilia.

There fore, the concerns being expressed here about the “safety of children” in a Church environment, could apply to any Church - and not only Anglican or Episcopalian Churches.**

 

[Anna_Scott]

**What ever the viewpoints and arguments about sexual orientation in the Church, I think it is always a mistake to automatically associate these (heterosexual or homosexual) with paedophilia.

There is no evidence that either heterosexual or homosexual orientation leads to paedophilia by virtue of that sexual orientation.

There is however, abundant scientific evidence to show that complete abstinence from adult sexual relationships (homosexual and heterosexual) does often lead to paedophilia.

There fore, the concerns being expressed here about the “safety of children” in a Church environment, could apply to any Church - and not only Anglican or Episcopalian Churches.**

Yes, obviously the issues can apply to any church. I’ve looked at statistics on the percentages of homosexual pedophiles compared to heterosexual pedophiles. It seems to depend on who gathered the statistics. So, I’m not sure how you evaluate the risk. I’m sure there are homosexuals in most congregations, though many may not identify themselves as such. It is highly likely that pedophiles are also in congregations of any given church.

How do we keep homosexuals away from our children in the greater society? They could be your neighbor who might save your children from a burning fire someday. Just a thought.

You make a good point. My intention is not to condemn homosexuals, Matt. See my previous post below; and gurneyhalleck1’s response.

I’m a former Baptist, visiting the Episcopal Church–only attended a few services. Will attend a 4 hour class tomorrow for “newcomers”–hopefully to learn more about this particular EC–since there are some significant variations among Churches. I don’t know where this Church stands on the same-sex affection issue.

I was always taught that homosexuality is a sin.

But, I have to wonder: if genetics and other applicable scientific fields were to prove, without a doubt, that homosexuality is genetic/biological; then it would surely have some effect upon our religious beliefs. If God creates certain people with “same-sex affection”; how can it be a sin? I am just thinking out loud here. I don’t really have an answer. I just think it is something worth asking.

Anna

Just to get you thinking even harder, what if they come out with hard reserach that some men have brains that are hard-wired to pedophilia? What if pedophiles are predisposed in their genetic makeup or in their brains, etc. to rape little kids? Would that diminish the sinfulness? Whether or not we all have predispositions IMO isn’t the point. The Scriptures tell us that we all have the ability to overcome our demons through Christ. He gives us the strength and the way out. There’s always a way out given by God. It’s a cop-out to just surrender to nature and do what feels good as per the secular religion we’re being shoveled…I’d think long and hard before commiting to TEC…real long!

Anna

 

[peary1]

Oh really? How many heterosexuals do you know who burn with desire for another of the same sex? Not in my experience.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Just to get you thinking even harder, what if they come out with hard reserach that some men have brains that are hard-wired to pedophilia? What if pedophiles are predisposed in their genetic makeup or in their brains, etc. to rape little kids? Would that diminish the sinfulness? Whether or not we all have predispositions IMO isn’t the point. The Scriptures tell us that we all have the ability to overcome our demons through Christ. He gives us the strength and the way out. There’s always a way out given by God. It’s a cop-out to just surrender to nature and do what feels good as per the secular religion we’re being shoveled…I’d think long and hard before commiting to TEC…real long!

**Actually, this comment from gurneyhallek1 displays an enormous amount of ignorance on this subject.

The medical profession worldwide (Psychiatric & Psychological) has for many years treated paedophilia and bestiality as medical disorders - which are correctible with appropriate medication and therapy. These are not considered by the medical profession to be the natural state of men or women. These are considered to be illnesses to be treated and corrected.

Homosexuality does not fall into this category. The medical profession acknowledges it to be the natural orientation of some men and women, and not a disorder or illness. Psychiatry and Psychology do not therefore advocate and “corrective” treatment or therapy (or medication) administered in order to change a homosexual individual into a heterosexual individual.

Paedophilia and bestiality, and other sexual disorders - have nothing whatsoever to do with the natural sexual orientation of the individual - just as these have nothing whatsoever to do with the natural gender identity of individuals.**

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Yes, obviously the issues can apply to any church. I’ve looked at statistics on the percentages of homosexual pedophiles compared to heterosexual pedophiles. It seems to depend on who gathered the statistics. So, I’m not sure how you evaluate the risk. I’m sure there are homosexuals in most congregations, though many may not identify themselves as such. It is highly likely that pedophiles are also in congregations of any given church.

**Thanks Anna…

Collection of such statistics is extremely difficult because of the reluctance of individuals (both heterosexual and homosexual) to report paedophilic behaviour. However, medical science has often relied upon other statistics like convictions for paedophilia to estimate incidence of such within the two populations.

The vast majority of convictions for paedophilia (or under age sex) occur amongst heterosexuals - who comprise 90% - 95% of the human adult population. When extrapolated and weighted against these known population “norms” it is clear that the incidence of heterosexual paedophilia is greater than homosexual paedophilia - by a factor of 2:1.**

You make a good point. My intention is not to condemn homosexuals, Matt. See my previous post below; and gurneyhalleck1’s response.

Anna, it is extremely unfair to condemn homosexual people on the basis of known evidence re paedophilic behaviour amongst heterosexuals.

Anna

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Right. You think what you want.

**
What I think is what my Church actually teaches.

No generation of mankind is more “disordered” or prone to sin than any other - by virtue of our inheritance from Adam & Eve. (the world has changed, NOT our souls)…

This is because, the original sin of Adam and Eve did not change human nature in any way. We do NOT inherit a greater propensity to sin - we inherit the consequences of their sin.

I can understand that some Roman Catholics disagree with this… but the requirements for salvation that applied to Adam and Eve - evidenced by Christs descent into Hell to free them, are no different for us than for them.

So, you believe what you want to believe, but try to refrain from peddling untruths about the Orthodox Faith in this forum.**

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

What a condescending and nastily-put post, Andrew. I am ignorant and of course, you the enlightened Buddha on the subject? A genetic predisposition has not been established in any of these areas, for the same-sex attraction or the pedophilia angle. Yet there have been hacks who use pseudo-science to establish both hypotheses. Your post points toward an established, confident, concrete knowledge of these issues when they are still very much up in the air. The medical community can call homosexuality normal and not a disorder. That means nothing to me. You trust the same folks that consider abortion ethical and fetal stem cell research beneficial when there has been NO evidence that it is? Just because the medical folks agree on something (which I don’t think they do and see no evidence that they are in such harmony as you say) doesn’t mean something is so…Many physicians think gender reassignment/sex change surgery is a must, too. And I have indeed seen and read where some physicians think that pedophilia is hard-wired like homosexuality. I think both are disorders and I’m sticking to it. But thanks for your attempts to enlighten and open my eyes

Just to get you thinking even harder, what if they come out with hard reserach that some men have brains that are hard-wired to pedophilia? What if pedophiles are predisposed in their genetic makeup or in their brains, etc. to rape little kids? Would that diminish the sinfulness? Whether or not we all have predispositions IMO isn’t the point. The Scriptures tell us that we all have the ability to overcome our demons through Christ. He gives us the strength and the way out. There’s always a way out given by God. It’s a cop-out to just surrender to nature and do what feels good as per the secular religion we’re being shoveled…I’d think long and hard before commiting to TEC…real long!

**Actually, this comment from gurneyhallek1 displays an enormous amount of ignorance on this subject.

The medical profession worldwide (Psychiatric & Psychological) has for many years treated paedophilia and bestiality as medical disorders - which are correctible with appropriate medication and therapy. These are not considered by the medical profession to be the natural state of men or women. These are considered to be illnesses to be treated and corrected.

Homosexuality does not fall into this category. The medical profession acknowledges it to be the natural orientation of some men and women, and not a disorder or illness. Psychiatry and Psychology do not therefore advocate and “corrective” treatment or therapy (or medication) administered in order to change a homosexual individual into a heterosexual individual.

Paedophilia and bestiality, and other sexual disorders - have nothing whatsoever to do with the natural sexual orientation of the individual - just as these have nothing whatsoever to do with the natural gender identity of individuals.**

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

What a condescending and nastily-put post, Andrew. I am ignorant and of course, you the enlightened Buddha on the subject? A genetic predisposition has not been established in any of these areas, for the same-sex attraction or the pedophilia angle. Yet there have been hacks who use pseudo-science to establish both hypotheses. Your post points toward an established, confident, concrete knowledge of these issues when they are still very much up in the air. The medical community can call homosexuality normal and not a disorder. That means nothing to me. You trust the same folks that consider abortion ethical and fetal stem cell research beneficial when there has been NO evidence that it is? Just because the medical folks agree on something (which I don’t think they do and see no evidence that they are in such harmony as you say) doesn’t mean something is so…Many physicians think gender reassignment/sex change surgery is a must, too. And I have indeed seen and read where some physicians think that pedophilia is hard-wired like homosexuality. I think both are disorders and I’m sticking to it. But thanks for your attempts to enlighten and open my eyes

**I am a medical doctor and psychologist. I have been practicing psychiatry for 25 years.

What you say here is not only plain wrong… but also destructive to the lives of many human beings who are only different from you in their sexual orientation or gender identity.

I am assuming that you are heterosexual of course.

No matter what your personal status - you should grow up, and stop peddling such patently false beliefs.**

 

[larkin31]

How do we keep homosexuals away from our children in the greater society? They could be your neighbor who might save your children from a burning fire someday. Just a thought.

If you are concerned about child abuse, it is not homosexuals that you should be most concerned about. Child abuse is committed by the following people most often:

parents, relatives, neighbors, and other acquaintances

These are predominantly heterosexual. The problems and disorders that cause adults to abuse children–both sexually and otherwise–transcend sexual orientation lines.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Your 25 years in pychiatry doesn’t phase me a bit. Of course you’re going to be of the secular mentality that homosexuality is natural and normal. The Catholic Church teaches otherwise. It is objectively sinful and I’m sure your Orthodox faith would teach you the same reality. You can diagnose it and dress it up all you like. You can cherry pick what Orthodoxy has to say about the issue as well. And bravo with guessing that I was heterosexual, I’m sure your doctorate helped you deduce that one …and the “grow up” prescription does sound professional and like someone within the medical field indeed. What I say is not wrong and it destroys nobody. What you do in affirming deeply sinful behavior is lead souls to hell. You are the one who needs to re-think the moral stance and scandal you lead people toward, not myself. My personal status has nothing to do with it and I suppose we’re all peddlers, aren’t we? I peddle the Catholic teaching, you peddle sin. Good luck with that, doc.

**I am a medical doctor and psychologist. I have been practicing psychiatry for 25 years.

What you say here is not only plain wrong… but also destructive to the lives of many human beings who are only different from you in their sexual orientation or gender identity.

I am assuming that you are heterosexual of course.

No matter what your personal status - you should grow up, and stop peddling such patently false beliefs.**

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’re correct. Homosexual doesn’t necessarily equal pedophile.

If you are concerned about child abuse, it is not homosexuals that you should be most concerned about. Child abuse is committed by the following people most often:

parents, relatives, neighbors, and other acquaintances

These are predominantly heterosexual. The problems and disorders that cause adults to abuse children–both sexually and otherwise–transcend sexual orientation lines.

 

[CMatt25]

If you are concerned about child abuse, it is not homosexuals that you should be most concerned about. Child abuse is committed by the following people most often:

parents, relatives, neighbors, and other acquaintances

These are predominantly heterosexual. The problems and disorders that cause adults to abuse children–both sexually and otherwise–transcend sexual orientation lines.

I think you misunderstood my post. I was responding to a poster who said something about keeping our children away from homosexuals may help in protecting them from homosexual abuse. And I was just asking how can we keep our children away from homosexuals when they are part of the greater society and in fact could be our neighbors. And then could in fact save our children from a fire someday. I agree abuse transcends orientation.

 

[CMatt25]

You trust the same folks that consider… fetal stem cell research beneficial

Not everything is so black and white. There are good people who may have watched a loved one succumb to a disease like Alzheimers for instance who might wonder if stem cell research might be better than simply discarding leftover frozen embryos. I’m just saying we need to be careful in our judging.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Your 25 years in pychiatry doesn’t phase me a bit. Of course you’re going to be of the secular mentality that homosexuality is natural and normal. The Catholic Church teaches otherwise. It is objectively sinful and I’m sure your Orthodox faith would teach you the same reality. You can diagnose it and dress it up all you like. You can cherry pick what Orthodoxy has to say about the issue as well. And bravo with guessing that I was heterosexual, I’m sure your doctorate helped you deduce that one …and the “grow up” prescription does sound professional and like someone within the medical field indeed. What I say is not wrong and it destroys nobody. What you do in affirming deeply sinful behavior is lead souls to hell. You are the one who needs to re-think the moral stance and scandal you lead people toward, not myself. My personal status has nothing to do with it and I suppose we’re all peddlers, aren’t we? I peddle the Catholic teaching, you peddle sin. Good luck with that, doc.

**Neither your Church or mine teaches what you have been pushing in this forum relating to homosexuality. What you have been doing encourages ostracision, fear and hatred of human beings.

Encouraging someone to leave a particular Church or congregation on the basis that their children may come into contact with homosexuals is disgusting.

Equating homosexuals with paedophiles or rapists, or trying to argue a moral equivalence (or medical equivalence) is wrong and offensive.

Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches teach salvation from sin - through repentance and the sacraments… something I firmly believe in. You are happy to consign homosexuals to Hell with no chance of forgiveness or salvation. Wrong theology.

You peddle fear, lies, discrimination, hatred and condemnation of homosexuals and those with gender dysphoria.

I think you need to seek counselling from a spiritual adviser from within the Catholic Church - because what you argue and believe, is hateful & destructive towards other human beings, and works to push them further away from the Church and repentance. I know that this is NOT your Church’s approach to these issues.

Your hate mongering, is itself a serious sin, and you need to address that.
**

 

[Nine_Two]

**Neither your Church or mine teaches what you have been pushing in this forum relating to homosexuality. What you have been doing encourages ostracision, fear and hatred of human beings.

Encouraging someone to leave a particular Church or congregation on the basis that their children may come into contact with homosexuals is disgusting.

Equating homosexuals with paedophiles or rapists, or trying to argue a moral equivalence (or medical equivalence) is wrong and offensive.

Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches teach salvation from sin - through repentance and the sacraments… something I firmly believe in. You are happy to consign homosexuals to Hell with no chance of forgiveness or salvation. Wrong theology.

You peddle fear, lies, discrimination, hatred and condemnation of homosexuals and those with gender dysphoria.

I think you need to seek counselling from a spiritual adviser from within the Catholic Church - because what you argue and believe, is hateful & destructive towards other human beings, and works to push them further away from the Church and repentance. I know that this is NOT your Church’s approach to these issues.

Your hate mongering, is itself a serious sin, and you need to address that.
**

The Churches may not teach that homosexuality on its own leads to damnation, they do teach that it is sinful behaviour which should not be encouraged, and must be confessed.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

The Churches may not teach that homosexuality on its own leads to damnation, they do teach that it is sinful behaviour which should not be encouraged, and must be confessed.

**Yes Nine Two,

That is also my understanding of what we teach.

Achieving sincere repentance and confession of any sin (including this one) is not assisted by ostracision, isolation, rejection, defamation or fear mongering.

All that does, is push the sinner further away from the arms of the Church, treats them a second class Christians and leads them into further error and sin.

Ignorant and intolerant treatment of any issue of sin, including homosexuality is counterproductive to the legitimate mission of the Church.

In my professional experience, those who are able to display the most understanding, compassion, support and inclusion of homosexuals are those who are themselves secure and happy in their own lives and sexual identity or orientation.

Those who are the most violently vitriolic, judgemental, defamatory and condemnatory of homosexual people, are usually insecure about their own sexual identity, and have serious unresolved issues themselves.

I have seen this countless times, and I have seen the damage it causes to homosexual people’s state of mind, physical well being - and importantly, spiritual well being as they are often forced away from redemption and the Church.

This is very sad.**

 

[Nine_Two]

**Yes Nine Two,

That is also my understanding of what we teach.

Achieving sincere repentance and confession of any sin (including this one) is not assisted by ostracision, isolation, rejection, defamation or fear mongering.

All that does, is push the sinner further away from the arms of the Church, treats them a second class Christians and leads them into further error and sin.
**

All members of the church must be treated as sinners, for that is what they are. Be merciful to them, as one wishes God to be merciful to themselves. It is true that this is something which is forgotten far too often.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

All members of the church must be treated as sinners, for that is what they are. Be merciful to them, as one wishes God to be merciful to themselves. It is true that this is something which is forgotten far too often.

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