Gay Episcopal Bishop Says St. Paul Was Condemning Homosexual Acts by Heterosexuals

[Deconi]

A lot of Greeks and Romans were encouraged to practice homosexuality. For example, Spartans were encouraged to take lovers in the army, because they would protect their lover better than if he was just another solider. It was so they could trust each other, and Spartan warfare depended on the ability to work together. I think this is what the bishop is trying to convey

Fantasy!

Outside of ‘modern novelties’ there is not a shred of evidence from the period or close to the period to accept this!

 

[CMatt25]

I qualified the statement with, ‘The bishop should be loving Christ, above all things on this earth including desires of the flesh…’ That doesn’t mean he doesn’t love Christ. He is a bishop, a shepherd to His flock.

Not trying to be hostile, but twisting what I say, for what purpose? Seemingly to disagree…

We should all, Catholics and nons alike, probably be striving to love Christ beyond all things.

 

[Joe_5859]

Thanks, Joe.

Don’t mention it. I always figured Bishop Robinson was one of those media go-to guys when they are looking for some juicy quote to stir up controversy amongst Christians. It would be like going to Bishop Gumbleton and saying his views represent what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

 

[SonofMonica]

Don’t mention it. I always figured Bishop Robinson was one of those media go-to guys when they are looking for some juicy quote to stir up controversy amongst Christians. It would be like going to Bishop Gumbleton and saying his views represent what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

His favorite shtick is to portray himself as a persecuted figure, someone who just wants to be left alone to be a “simple country bishop.” It’s quite a hilarious bit, actually, considering he travels the country to speak exclusively about gay issues and publicizes his civil union ceremony and gives interviews about always having wanted to be a “June bride.” He even has delusions of grandeur such that he waxes on and on and about receiving death threats and needing to wear body armor. “Simple country bishop,” indeed.

 

[wmscott]

And that’s the point. Being a bishop is simply a different “job” for the Episcopalians. The laity, quite literally, have just as much of a say in the governance of the Episcopal Church as bishops. Hence my comment that I don’t see the point in paying their salary if they are not going to safeguard the Catholic/Christian faith as best as possible under the auspices of Anglicanism. And I will add that while +VGR’s view may not be the norm for Episcopalians by some measure, it is the norm such that the laity and the bishops and clergy of the Church have not mustered up enough support against him to do anything about it. Of course, many simply leave, as I have, concluding that the entire structure of the Episcopal Church is backward and upside down. I was fighting for an Anglican dream that did not exist. The Episcopal Church is full of these false shepherds. If you’re not intimately familiar with Episcopal Church polity and politics, imagine if we did not have faithful bishops in the Catholic Church and the laity of the Catholic Church who support women’s ordination and gay marriage were put in charge and allowed to vote on these matters. Due to recent trends in opinions among the laity, the Church would be in trouble, right? Well, there you have the Episcopal Church in a nutshell. A complete and total failure of orthodox Christian leadership in a church that was set up to fail and be tossed about by every whim of secular society from the beginning.

So at some point when does someone look at the Episcopal Church and say “has the gates of hell prevail against us, and if so, where has it not prevailed”. Seems to me that the evil one has deeply rooted himself in this Church, mostly in the form of complacency and the de-sensitive nature of its flock towards the Word of God.

 

[SonofMonica]

So at some point when does someone look at the Episcopal Church and say “has the gates of hell prevail against us, and if so, where has it not prevailed”. Seems to me that the evil one has deeply rooted himself in this Church, mostly in the form of complacency and the de-sensitive nature of its flock towards the Word of God.

Well, the sad part of it is what the orthodox in the Episcopal Church have to put up with. For instance, my parish across town was quite the Anglo-catholic parish, and its mode of survival was simply to pretend the rest of the Episcopal Church did not exist, and to go on about serving the poor and having mass every Sunday. We all winced every time someone asked us if we were the “gay church,” but simply returned to being the local congregation just like everyone else does. So, I think there is a deep attachment to buildings and local congregations, just as in the Catholic Church, and there is a refusal to acknowledge or accept what the national church is doing, for the most part. I think the faithful remnant in the Episcopal Church is actually desensitized to the “leadership.” And so, my point is, why not be rid of these leaders, who never believed the Word of God to begin with?

 

[wmscott]

Well, that’s who Paul was preaching to, so looking at the historical context, he was trying to get his point across to pagans. Not saying they had to listen, but he can preach to them.

Also, how do you know that the bishop doesn’t love Christ? Are you privy to some knowledge into this man’s life? How do you know he hasn’t prayed about it, and talked to Christ? What if he is? How can you know for sure? I’m not trying to be hostile, but I think it’s a little much to say that he doesn’t love Christ.

I had to look up Discordianism. Discordianism recognizes chaos, discord, and dissent as valid and desirable qualities, in contrast with most religions, which idealize harmony and order. Eris, the Greek mythological goddess of discord, has also become the matron deity of the religion Discordianism. There is an encouragement to form schisms and cabals. Does this accurately reflect your views and beliefs?

 

[Joe_5859]

So at some point when does someone look at the Episcopal Church and say “has the gates of hell prevail against us, and if so, where has it not prevailed”. Seems to me that the evil one has deeply rooted himself in this Church, mostly in the form of complacency and the de-sensitive nature of its flock towards the Word of God.

Be careful what you say, though. There are plenty of Catholics that would fall into this category, too.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Well, that’s who Paul was preaching to, so looking at the historical context, he was trying to get his point across to pagans. Not saying they had to listen, but he can preach to them.

Also, how do you know that the bishop doesn’t love Christ? Are you privy to some knowledge into this man’s life? How do you know he hasn’t prayed about it, and talked to Christ? What if he is? How can you know for sure? I’m not trying to be hostile, but I think it’s a little much to say that he doesn’t love Christ.

**It is also true that the pagans who Paul preached to were commonly engaging in homosexual sex as part of pagan temple worship rites. These acts were part of idolatrous pagan worship - and were encouraged amongst heterosexuals.

I have also heard this argument put forward re Sodom and Gommorrah - all of those men just arriving at Lots house because they wanted to get it on with those Angel Guys??? It is more likely that they were wanting to practice an act of pagan worship via the sex act with the Angels… as they might have done in their temple.

If that is what the Bishop was referring to, maybe he has a point.

Given the HUGE issue that is made of homosexuality per se today by the Churches - I must say I am actually surprised that Christ said nothing about it at all. Surely, if we were supposed to make such a big deal of it - he would have said something.

Ofcourse, I am aware of all the Leviticus stuff, but frankly, i am not about to sell my daughter into slavery, or stop wearing poly cotton shirts etc…etc**

 

[CMatt25]

So at some point when does someone look at the Episcopal Church and say “has the gates of hell prevail against us, and if so, where has it not prevailed”. Seems to me that the evil one has deeply rooted himself in this Church, mostly in the form of complacency and the de-sensitive nature of its flock towards the Word of God.

Just because you disagree with an interpretation, what ever happened to cast not the first stone and pluck out your own eye before anothers? How much do you know about TEC beyond the gay issue? The gates have not prevailed against TEC any more than it has against the RCC. They both have good.

 

[aspirant]

I would also add that I am fairly certain that Bishop Robinson’s theological opinions are not indicative of the point of view of all Episcopalians.

As a former Episcopalian with many Episcopalian family members, I concur.

I am glad that this is not the norm for Episcopalians. However, why does the Episcopal Church continue to allow him to operate as a Bishop without any kind a censure?

The writings of Bishop John Shelby Spong were, I think, far far worse than what Gene Robinson said in this thread title. Spong openly denied even the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus.

Let’s just say that if you’re an Episcopal bishop, censure is unlikely.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

**I must agree with you here CMatt25… casting stones in judgement is very easy. Too easy in fact.

Pedophilia is also deeply rooted in the Churches, and we hardly hear a thing about it.

My understanding is that the Bible is completely silent on that issue - but does that make it less of a sin than any other?**

 

[wmscott]

Just because you disagree with an interpretation, what ever happened to cast not the first stone and pluck out your own eye before anothers? How much do you know about TEC beyond the gay issue? The gates have not prevailed against TEC any more than it has against the RCC. They both have good.

Maybe a poor choice of a phrase, my bad, sorry. I guess I should follow Thumpers advice a little more often. As far as the TEC, I had thought they were fairly close in their beliefs and services. Were they not a part of the Anglican Church in England? I know that to an undiscerning eye there services are very close to the Catholic Mass, or am I mistaken?

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Maybe a poor choice of a phrase, my bad, sorry. I guess I should follow Thumpers advice a little more often. As far as the TEC, I had thought they were fairly close in their beliefs and services. Were they not a part of the Anglican Church in England? I know that to an undiscerning eye there services are very close to the Catholic Mass, or am I mistaken?

Not mistaken at all. You have a pretty good idea of what the Episcopal Church is about. In the Church of England there is a much more visible Evangelical wing, but in the US, the church is mostly either broad church or high church. The high church services rival in ceremony anything you find in the Roman church.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Interesting perspective. Can he at all support it?

 

[wmscott]

Interesting perspective. Can he at all support it?

In the link I provided in the first post it goes into detail but basically he is citingRomans (1:22-27) and states “We have to understand that the notion of a homosexual sexual orientation is a notion that’s only about 125 years old," and "That is to say, St. Paul was talking about people that he understood to be heterosexual engaging in same-sex acts. It never occurred to anyone in ancient times that a certain minority of us would be born being affectionally oriented to people of the same sex.”

 

[CMatt25]

Maybe a poor choice of a phrase, my bad, sorry. I guess I should follow Thumpers advice a little more often. As far as the TEC, I had thought they were fairly close in their beliefs and services. Were they not a part of the Anglican Church in England? I know that to an undiscerning eye there services are very close to the Catholic Mass, or am I mistaken?

wmscott, no you’re not bad. Just human. Like I am and we all are. TEC priest near me who also goes by “father”, was actually a former RC priest. And yes they believe in a lot of similar things. He tells me they believe in a literal physical RP. They just don’t attempt to define it as the RCC does with transubstantiation. They are simply satisfied with the mystery of faith in that regard. I haven’t been but from what I understand a Catholic might not see much difference between Catholic mass and an Episcopal traditional service. Actually I think they consider themselves Catholic in many ways too so prefer the Romans to call themselves **Roman **Catholics for that reason. They believe in Apostolic Succession but I know the RCC doesn’t agree they are in succession. Open Communion, women clergy, married priests, the gay issue, no Pope are a few differences. I’ve heard Romans refer to them as “Catholic Lite”, fairly close so you weren’t mistaken.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

I qualified the statement with, ‘The bishop should be loving Christ, above all things on this earth including desires of the flesh…’ That doesn’t mean he doesn’t love Christ. He is a bishop, a shepherd to His flock.

Not trying to be hostile, but twisting what I say, for what purpose? Seemingly to disagree…

I apologize if I came of as hostile, I was kind of rushing off to class when I posted Plus being sick has not helped my reading comprehension. So I do apologize. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

I had to look up Discordianism. Discordianism recognizes chaos, discord, and dissent as valid and desirable qualities, in contrast with most religions, which idealize harmony and order. Eris, the Greek mythological goddess of discord, has also become the matron deity of the religion Discordianism. There is an encouragement to form schisms and cabals. Does this accurately reflect your views and beliefs?

Somewhat. My beliefs more run along the lines of blurring the lines between everything perceived black and white. And yes, Eris is my deity.It does encourage all of those things but in the context of the religion itself. There are many individual schools of Discordianism, and I am the singular participant in my own sect of Discordianism. Also, above all things, I think the ability to dissent is very important. For those of us here in the US, we wouldn’t be the US if it wasn’t for dissent. However, if you are curious, I was formally a practicing Catholic. I am really not trying to troll and cause trouble, if that is why you are curious. Anything I say, I am serious about, and argue and debate in earnest. I want to learn the different sides of the arguments, as to educate myself on things I do not readily understand or agree with.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

Fantasy!

Outside of ‘modern novelties’ there is not a shred of evidence from the period or close to the period to accept this!

Hm, I’ll need to do some more research then. If I can ever find the time… Being an English major is not the easiest thing in the world.