Gay gene: Real or fictitious?

[white_sheep]

Gender is not determined by hormones in utero, it is determined by whether you received an x or y chromosome from your father.

 

[Usige]

Not if the positive, masculinizing influences of one’s brothers make one feel perfectly manly despite one’s lack of a vigorous attraction to women. Such a young man would have all the necessary resources to have a successful marriage, and few people would ever know about his attraction to men.

Potentially. I am more or less pointing out the fact that while fraternal birth order may have an influence, it is still only a theory. I seem to remember there were some dissenting opinions on the research because of selection bias. The study, from what I remember, only included brothers where there was at least one brother that identified as gay. So if the families I’m thinking of truely do not have any homosexual brothers and they were excluded then it skews the purported strength of the correlation. I also seem to remember the study said it accounted for maybe only 1 in 8 gay men (no correlation for women). So long and short is that in utero antigens might play a small part in sexual preference, it is not this huge smoking gun some like to make it seem.

 

[Convert_in_99]

A *question *to learn more about a topic is not charitable???

Learning about a topic is fine, but in a forum setting these never turn out well. It usually becomes a heated debate and things start turning ugly quick, and often for the subjects involved.

 

[OraLabora]

Gender is not determined by hormones in utero, it is determined by whether you received an x or y chromosome from your father.

Not necessarily apparent gender (I’m not talking about transsexuals here). There are some in utero conditions, such as complete androgen insensitivity syndrome that can result in a genetic male being born with female external genitalia, as we all start out with female genitalia. This condition can lead to varying degrees of intersex from poorly developed male genitalia to completely indistinguishable from a girl.

 

[Nelka]

Fake!

 

[OraLabora]

Fake!

What are you responding to?

 

[Larry1700]

The Church has no interest in denying the evolutionary value of all sorts of habits, tendencies, urges, predispositions. It’s of course a fact that we all have many characteristics whose purpose is survival of us as individuals and as a species. BUT,** it doesn’t follow that the behaviors they encourage are all moral, or morally neutral** (use your imagination).

So of course, the Church isn’t likely to randomly start making proclamations like, “A man’s desire to sleep with many women who are not his wives, has a natural evolutionary value to it.”
Even less is the Church going to affirm unproven theories about the value of homosexuality.

Peace.
John

With the exception of your phrase “whose purpose is survival…,” this is my (current?) belief as well. I replied to my SIL something similar to your statement. We all have immoral/bad tendencies which we are supposed to try to overcome. For some it is anger, others gluttony, and still others (using an extreme example) cannibalism.

No, I’m not comparing homosexuality (or anger or gluttony, for that matter) to cannibalism. That’s for the Church and God to sort out, not me. But aren’t psychological abnormalities also influenced in part by things that happen prior to birth? I mean, even if a gene or hormones causes someone to have homosexual tendencies, then just like the other tendencies, the cause is irrelevant. What is important is that we strive to overcome the tendency.

Something, somewhere, caused me to have a sweet tooth the size of a saber-toothed tiger’s tooth. Did my mother eat a lot of desserts while she was carrying me? Is it a genetic defect? No matter what caused it, I can’t simply indulge it whenever I feel like it. I have to try to control it. Admittedly, I’m not as good at it as I’d like to be, but I definitely don’t eat what I want, whenever I want it. If I did so, I would reap the negative health (and spiritual?) consequences of my bad behavior.

 

[Midwest88]

So far there’s no such thing as a “gay” gene. According to my mother, a nurse, and her fellow doctors same-sex attraction – let alone exclusive same-sex attraction – is a phenomenon in a sense that there really isn’t any true account to it being innate.

 

[Midwest88]

This doesn’t seem to be very charitable to those who really do struggle with this most difficult issue. It is a huge cross for those who have to face its daily challenges. Whether it is genetic or environmental is beside the point. The point is they got it and now they have to learn to live a chaste single life with little or no support from fellow Christians.

“My feelings. They hurt.”

Well I burnt myself with hot cooking oil which left my right thumb with a patch of discolored skin. It hurt as heck when it happened. Then yesterday I was baking pie, took the glass dish out of the oven and a bit of my right pinkie caught the glass (was using a dish towel to get it out) and boy did it hurt.

Charitable? How about tell it like it is. Anal sex ain’t pretty. Guy on guy isn’t pretty, same thing with two girls making out and “doing it.”

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Evolution is about the gene pool of the population, not the gene pool of a single person. If a reproductive trait results in one sibling being take out of reproduction duty, but allows more of that person’s nieces and nephews with that same genetic code to survive, it will be passed on.

I’m not saying that’s definitely the case here (although I think it is) I just hate how little understanding of the evolutionary process most people have.

Fair enough. So what would you say are those positive gene pool evolutionary characteristics are associated homosexual behavior?

 

[Rau]

It’s worth noting too that – if that line of research is correct – there’s a certain evolutionary value in homosexuality that I would love to see the church acknowledge someday. (It’s not so much disordered as differently ordered, serving a very important natural purpose in LIMITING procreation).

Take for example, the evidence that suggests men with a lot of older brothers are more likely to be gay, and the theory that this is due to higher in utero exposure to androgens built up from all those previous male pregnancies.

This could be like an evolutionary release valve: More male babies = more competition for mates, territory, etc. So you reach some critical mass and the hormones tip toward creating homosexual males to lesson the burden.(Similar to how maternal stress causes miscarriages, or how rabbits can actually re-absorb their fetuses when facing harsh conditions).

An amazing attempt to concoct a theory! The woman’s body retains memory of previous pregnancies and the sex of each?

Seems it would make just as much sense that men who evolution has determined should not procreate ought be born asexual or perhaps sterile.

 

[epan]

My SIL emailed me an ifunny video (sorry, can’t access my email from this computer), with a title something like “What NOT to say when your son tells you he’s gay.”

Without going into detail, the son seems to be arguing with his mother, father, and one or more other people. His parents are telling him they are cutting off his support. (Not relevant to my question, but I’m just providing a little context.)

Anyway, the son says he has learned in biology class and psychology class that your sexuality is formed by age ??? (I don’t remember the age mentioned). My response to my SIL included, among other things, that I’m not convinced yet that people are born gay. I seem to recall reading that the so-called “gay gene” was not actually what the PC folks said it was.

So, is the “gay gene” real, or fictitious?

I can’t imagine anyone finding this video funny. Be forewarned, there is profanity and violence near the end of the video, as tempers get out of hand:

youtube.com/watch?v=1df_i26wh-w

It’s estimated that up to 40% of homeless youth are gay in large cities like Los Angeles. Without intervention, these kids often turn to selling their bodies and using drugs, as the only way that can figure out how to survive. Among other problems, this behavior puts them at high risk for HIV infection. The suicide rate of these kids is more than four times higher than their peers who are not homeless. There is nothing humorous about what is happening in this video.

Nobody knows with certainty what determines a person’s sexual orientation. It’s clear that it is not a “choice” however. It’s also clear that it is largely determined at an early age.

 

[pensmama87]

An amazing attempt to concoct a theory!** The woman’s body retains memory of previous pregnancies and the sex of each? **

Seems it would make just as much sense that men who evolution has determined should not procreate ought be born asexual or perhaps sterile.

I do not at all agree with QuasiCatholic’s conclusions, but I remember reading - I will have to dig it up when I have the time - an article that stated that cells matching the DNA of her children can be found well after birth (in their blood, if I remember correctly.) So that might not be so far off of a conclusion.

I will look it up, because it was really, really fascinating.

 

[epan]

An amazing attempt to concoct a theory! The woman’s body retains memory of previous pregnancies and the sex of each?

Seems it would make just as much sense that men who evolution has determined should not procreate ought be born asexual or perhaps sterile.

Here are a few articles on the topic, from a variety of mainstream sources:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation
scitechdaily.com/homosexuality-might-develop-in-the-womb-due-to-epigenetic-changes/
berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2000/03/03-29-2000a.html

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Here are a couple of other studies.

The first if from the FDA (very pro homosexual administration) currently on their website.

*A history of male-to-male sex is associated with an increased risk for exposure to and transmission of certain infectious diseases, including HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. **Men who have had sex with other men represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet **are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2010, MSM accounted for at least 61% of all new HIV infections in the U.S. and an estimated 77% of diagnosed HIV infections among males were attributed to male-to-male sexual contact. **Between 2008 and 2010, the estimated overall incidence of HIV was stable in the U.S. However the incidence in MSM increased 12%, while it decreased in other populations. *The largest increase was a 22% increase in MSM aged 13 to 24 years. Since younger individuals are more likely to donate blood, the implications of this increase in incidence need to be further evaluated.
fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/BloodBloodProducts/QuestionsaboutBlood/ucm108186.htm

The second from the Family Research Council in 2007 (conservative family oriented group).

*“On average, in Norway and Denmark – where same-sex marriage is legal – married lesbians lived to age 56 and married gay men to age 52,” said one of the study’s presenters, Dr. Paul Cameron of the conservative Colorado-based think tank Family Research Institute, in a press statement.

In the study, Denmark, a country with the longest history of gay marriages, reportedly recorded that **men in heterosexual marriages between the years 1990 and 2002 died at a median age of 74 while the 561 gay-partnered men documented a median age of death of 51. **In Norway, men married to women died at a median age of 77 while the gay-partnered men died at a median age of 52.

• christianpost.com/news/new-study-finds-early-death-in-gay-marriages-26558/
  It is interesting that this takes account of “married” (presumably monogamous?) homosexual relationships and has significant difference.

So while we need to have compassion with those in our community who identify as something other than heterosexual, we also need to acknowledge living that lifestyle will have pretty significant negative effect on the person.

Pax.

 

[Larry1700]

So far there’s no such thing as a “gay” gene. According to my mother, a nurse, and her fellow doctors same-sex attraction – let alone exclusive same-sex attraction – is a phenomenon in a sense that there really isn’t any true account to it being innate.

Thanks. Your answer was more in line with my original questions than the other comments.

Not complaining about the other comments, because they’ve been enlightening in other ways, but yours is the first answer that directly answers my original question.

 

[Larry1700]

I can’t imagine anyone finding this video funny. Be forewarned, there is profanity and violence near the end of the video, as tempers get out of hand:

No, it’s not a funny video. Two others thought I was saying that, as well, so in post #15 I said:

To Convert in 99 and BruisedReed:

It just dawned on me that when you (and perhaps others) viewed my original post, you might have missed the “i” in front of “funny,” and thus thought that I was saying that my SIL sent me a “funny” video.

My apologies…
I should have somehow emphasized the “i” or made a point to indicate that it was from the ifunny.com website.

It certainly is NOT a funny video!

Sorry about that!

Nobody knows with certainty what determines a person’s sexual orientation. It’s clear that it is not a “choice” however. It’s also clear that it is largely determined at an early age.

“Clear” that’s it’s not a choice? How do you know that? And even if we stipulate that the **tendency **towards homosexuality is not a choice, the **act **certainly **is **a choice. That is certainly clear, because they’re not being forced to perform the act (with the obvious exception of rape, of course).

 

[Larry1700]

I’m bipolar. My doctor has said that I was probably born with the possibility of developing this disorder and life events/upbringing likely triggered it. I think that this line of thinking could possibly be applied to people who are gay. Not necessarily a “gay gene.”

It needs to be noted that I can do very sinful things because of my disorder and I am still held accountable for it. For an example, in a manic cycle I crave sex. That doesn’t give me the right to go out and have sex.

Correct. You don’t have the right, and you are accountable, as long as you are able to control your actions. I applaud you for recognizing the disorder and being strong enough to resist.

 

[Rau]

Here are a few articles on the topic, from a variety of mainstream sources:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation
scitechdaily.com/homosexuality-might-develop-in-the-womb-due-to-epigenetic-changes/
berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2000/03/03-29-2000a.html

I was familiar with the role of inutero hormonal conditions, though not the accumulative effect of multiple male-child pregnancies. The evolutionary dimension (homosexuality is a response to population “concerns”) however is not part of that theory, and the arising of such a defect in one family (of many sons) would be hit and miss in so far as its relevance to the actual circumstances of the population. Over population is typically recognized by its effect on the environment.

Same sex attraction arises in families with few sons too, so the multiple sons theory appears to be at best a small piece in a complex puzzle. The evolutionary/population control proposition seems to be speculative.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I do not at all agree with QuasiCatholic’s conclusions, but I remember reading - I will have to dig it up when I have the time - an article that stated that cells matching the DNA of her children can be found well after birth (in their blood, if I remember correctly.) So that might not be so far off of a conclusion.

I will look it up, because it was really, really fascinating.

Not just in the blood, in the brain too.