Gay lobby fighting reparative therapy at the expense of our youth

[frobert]

I am for reparative therapy with the Bible, do you oppose that?

As far it not working their are plenty of people that have changed because of it. In fact, there are more ex homosexuals than homosexual in existence. Homosexuality is not innate and we should not tell our youths anything different. Paz.

God made people with same sex attraction. Everything God makes is perfect so there is no need to change anything God made.

If the bible explicitly says that homosexuals should under go reparitive therapy it is wrong but the bible doesn’t say that. Read what you want into the bible but it did not say that gays have to change. Catholic teaching today teaching SSA is not sinful.

If you advise a gay youth to undergo reparitve therapy and they can’t and they end up committing suicide would that be assisted suicide. You be the judge.

There are bi-sexuals and people who claim to have changed but still have gay sex. Orientation can be changed but it is rare. Read the literature.

 

[frobert]

Be prepared of being accused of liberal smear campaign.

As long as something sounds righteous, who cares about actual harm or (lack of) efficacy?

The Church teaches that having same-sex attraction but not acting upon it is not sin…yet saints of the past have taught that same-sex attraction is the worst possible unnatural proclivity to sin, even worse than any heterosexual sin because at least heterosexuals are natural.

I wonder why gay people end up depressed.

Pope Francis admits to a Vatican Gay caucus. He has also said some in the Church are ‘Obsessed’ With Gays, threads like this prove it.

There are pretty high estimates of the number of gay clergy. Gays have contributed much to the CC throughout the centuries. Let’s eliminate everything gays contributed because it is tainted with gayness and see how much we have given up.

Let all the non-homosexuals, non trained therapists, non parents of gays and those that do not have first hand knowledge of the damage they are advocating for smear me.

 

[EIF5A]

Pope Francis admits to a Vatican Gay caucus. He has also said some in the Church are ‘Obsessed’ With Gays, threads like this prove it.

There are pretty high estimates of the number of gay clergy. Gays have contributed much to the CC throughout the centuries.

Let all the non-homosexuals, non trained therapists, non parents of gays and those that do not have first hand knowledge of the damage they are advocating for smear me.

I believe the official Church teaching is correct in that homosexual acts are immoral and against God’s plan, but some individual Catholics go over and beyond to deal with a papercut by amputating the finger.

I don’t doubt their sincerity, but good intent is often not sufficient for a positive outcome.

Why is it such a hard concept to teach chastity regardless of orientation?
Gay: celibacy. Bisexual: celibacy or opposite-sex marriage.

Can one accept that one has deep-seated homosexual attraction but not act on it and still be in good standing?

What’s the difference between “having deep-seated homosexual tendencies” and “being gay”? Nothing. I don’t buy this **** about giving in to “identity” or “ideology”. One can be gay but not go around throwing glitter at parades.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I wonder if the higher rate of suicide is due to the, relatively, new position that this is a permanent condition and there’s no way “out”. For a young person who does not want to embrace the homosexual lifestyle but who does not have any resources available to help him/her overcome, despair and depression could result.

Having known chaste gay people I’d say that is quite doubtful, neither were ever sexually active AFAIK or even attempted to date. One of them gave up on trying to be “cured” after praying the rosary multiple times a day, daily Mass, Eucharistic Adoration, extensive corporal works of mercy, etc. and no lessening of the feelings. Of course the feelings themselves weren’t sexual, they were a desire to love, be loved and for intimacy.

Unnatural is not from God but the devil. You are ignoring the Bible passages referenced in the Catechism. Please review them.

Here is the study. mygenes.co.nz/summary.htm

Since we don’t know who (e.g., 100% homosexual, mostly homosexual, bisexual, mostly heterosexual with slight homosexual temptation) actually goes through with the unfortunate decision to end one’s own life, none of this speculation will ever be solved.

Homosexual inclinations are equated with disorder — but rarely do you hear about living a chaste lifestyle that is still acceptable to God. Mostly, people want/expect you to change orientation to be “good” because if you still have homosexual feelings, you’re not “healed” or “complete”.

How many people actually go from one end of the spectrum to the other? How many have some degree of bisexuality and choose to marry the opposite sex?

The success stories you hear are mostly with people who are capable of having romantic/sexual feelings for either gender but choose to foster the one that is taught to be natural and ordered.

One is expected to become straight because if you’re not, then clearly, something is wrong with you, or you’re not praying enough, or you don’t have enough willpower.

Unless you’re gay and experience the aspersions cast from Christians, you will never understand the feeling of helplessness. It feels as though God Himself has abandoned you and sided with those nice heterosexual Christians.

The percent of people who commit suicide and are LGBT is not important, what is important is the percent of LGBT people who commit suicide is.

This whole need to “fix” people seems to be the result of some misguided belief that marriage is better than celibacy (which it isn’t by the way).

Some people seem to make a full switch, but when quite a number of them get caught cheating on their spouse with someone of the same sex.

The study is based on a compilation of more than 10,000 other studies by a biochemist/geneticist and statistician. Your credentials don’t compare I’m afraid.

Please answer my question - would you like the CC to accept homosexuality as normal?

He claims that many studies, but I don’t think there are even that many peer reviewed studies on homosexuality and closely related things, let alone ones that support his claims.

I don’t think that is within the Church’s domain anymore than proclaiming one color better than another.

Of course it is. Worse still is that homosexual sexual manifestations provoke not spiritual promise and fulfillment but despair and desolation. No wonder their is an epidemic, and our society is giving them the exact opposite of what they need.

No one is giving them what they need, the LGBT community cares, but doesn’t have the solution and conservative Christians don’t care enough to figure out how to apply a solution in a livable way

First of all I was sexually molested by an older friend that I considered a brother. Furthermore, I was small and shy and picked on and called homosexual in high school and wondered about my masculinity all the time to the point of having SSA. Jesus relieved that of me. I don’t believe in making fun of those that struggle with SSA because I was one of them, I want to help them. Not like you and the gay lobby who want to shackle them to hopelessness and despair by telling them they cannot change.

As far as your anecdotal comments, I prefer science.

If you tell people they are born with SSA and they cannot change, you give them no hope and can cause them to sin.

*Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe [in me] to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. *

So you deluded yourself into thinking you were gay and you psychosomatically experienced what you perceived to be same sex attraction, now you are claiming your extremely atypical experience is a universal thing because you want everyone to be saved like you were? That explains a lot and I think it is tragic.

 

[Brendan]

…and SSA is not a medical term, :

FYI, The term IS used in medical and psychological journals

archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=414368

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2835305/

eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ812194

sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100204144551.htm

 

[frobert]

FYI, The term IS used in medical and psychological journals

archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=414368

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2835305/

eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ812194

sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100204144551.htm

Brendan,

Because you find SSA used in professional literature does that mean that you approve of or are an advocate of (the least pejorative term I can use) questionable therapy that is not approved by any legitimate non-vested professional association?

 

[frobert]

I believe the official Church teaching is correct in that homosexual acts are immoral and against God’s plan, but some individual Catholics go over and beyond to deal with a papercut by amputating the finger.

I don’t doubt their sincerity, but good intent is often not sufficient for a positive outcome.

Why is it such a hard concept to teach chastity regardless of orientation?
Gay: celibacy. Bisexual: celibacy or opposite-sex marriage.

Can one accept that one has deep-seated homosexual attraction but not act on it and still be in good standing?

What’s the difference between “having deep-seated homosexual tendencies” and “being gay”? Nothing. I don’t buy this **** about giving in to “identity” or “ideology”. One can be gay but not go around throwing glitter at parades.

As a gay man I can attest to that. I have many friends and acquaintances who accept me for who I am and not my sexual orientation. I have no need or desire to push it in anyone’s face or do I have a need to hide it.

 

[SMGS127]

I believe the official Church teaching is correct in that homosexual acts are immoral and against God’s plan, but some individual Catholics go over and beyond to deal with a papercut by amputating the finger.

I don’t doubt their sincerity, but good intent is often not sufficient for a positive outcome.

Why is it such a hard concept to teach chastity regardless of orientation?
Gay: celibacy. Bisexual: celibacy or opposite-sex marriage.

Can one accept that one has deep-seated homosexual attraction but not act on it and still be in good standing?

What’s the difference between “having deep-seated homosexual tendencies” and “being gay”? Nothing. I don’t buy this **** about giving in to “identity” or “ideology”. One can be gay but not go around throwing glitter at parades.

To be fair, throwing glitter around is pretty fun .

But in all seriousness, I agree with you except I don’t think we should be excluding gay people from entering into Catholic marriages if they’re comfortable with it. I know some gays who couldn’t possibly stand the idea of marital relations with the opposite sex, but I, for an example, would be okay doing it out of love for my husband and God, even though I didn’t have that raw physical edge I have with girls. We definitely shouldn’t be making gay kids feel like they have to date the opposite sex, but it should for sure be an option if they and their partner are okay with it.

 

[EIF5A]

To be fair, throwing glitter around is pretty fun .

But in all seriousness, I agree with you except I don’t think we should be excluding gay people from entering into Catholic marriages if they’re comfortable with it. I know some gays who couldn’t possibly stand the idea of marital relations with the opposite sex, but I, for an example, would be okay doing it out of love for my husband and God, even though I didn’t have that raw physical edge I have with girls. We definitely shouldn’t be making gay kids feel like they have to date the opposite sex, but it should for sure be an option if they and their partner are okay with it.

I’m all for openness and honesty. Just not forced expectation of change and disappointment if it doesn’t happen.

If two people of the opposite sex are completely honest with each other about each others’ struggles and after pastoral counseling everyone is informed and content, then I hope they have happy lives.

 

[Catolico65]

Well, it’s a bit more complex than that. The majority view of the fathers was that sexuality is not even natural to humankind (St. Augustine, I should note, was a notable exception, and yet even he did not believe that we were meant to reproduce sexually as the result of sexual urges, but rather that we would do so in a manner which was stripped of any hint of being carnal, so that even for St. Augustine, sexual desire was not natural to man). Some like St. Maximus the Confessor even taught that God only created man with genders foreknowing that the fall would happen. They mostly taught that sexual reproduction was a product of the fall (believing that before the fall that we were to multiply and reproduce in a manner which was not carnal and sexual), and they believed therefore that sexuality was given to man after the fall as a type of condescension from God, that humans might continue to reproduce, albeit now in the base and carnal manner that beasts reproduce, which is why only under the specific context of a marriage did the fathers bless sexual conduct (and even then, only sexual conduct with procreation as its end: sodomy and other “unnatural” sex acts were considered by the fathers to be sinful in marriage as well). In fact, I would be inclined to say that the Fathers would not have understood heterosexuality as being something natural to man, because sexuality itself is not natural to man.

Sex and childbirth were created by God before the fall. In fact the Bible tells us women experienced pain during childbirth before the fall.

Homosexuality came after the fall and was not ordained by God.

 

[Catolico65]

As a biologist, I’d be fascinated to know how God had originally intended for humans to reproduce in an asexual manner. Is genetic diversity also a result of the fall? If the Church allows us to believe that God used the process of evolution to create humans, then there’s some…interesting…territory to jump into.

How much of the gender theology as taught by specific saints is binding to Catholics (or Orthodox in your case)?

What’s the Orthodox position on “deep-seated homosexual tendencies” and “reparative therapy”?

There is little to postulate, God created the sex and childbirth before the fall.

 

[Catolico65]

I never said it did. I also never said, “No homosexual was ever abused in the past”.

Therapy should not be false hope that after XYZ, the condition will go away. It shouldn’t be the expectation that if the condition remains, something is wrong with that person or that s/he didn’t have enough faith or didn’t work at it enough.

For some, SSA IS permanent. “Deep-seated homosexual tendencies” is just a neutral phrase for it. And from the Catholic perspective, the goal is celibacy.

But apparently, that’s not enough for the good Catholics here because those with SSA will always have a mark of disgrace and sin.

With all due respect your statement that deep seated SSA is permanent is a LIE, many people have left an active homosexual lifestyle after many years to get married, FACT.

As far as SSA being worse than any other sin, it only is when it is used to mislead others, especially children such as the gay lobby and ANYONE that tells a confused youth his condition is permanent.

 

[Catolico65]

I think it really does make sense. We do have a culture of death in this country that I think contributes to suicidal thinking and even acceptance that may have been much more absent 50 years ago. Also, in many ways I think the level of acceptability is probably more superficial than many realize.

We live in times when a person can’t really state an opinion about anything without fear of censure, losing their job or being sued. So I have to wonder how accurate our notion of acceptance really is.

I had a friend for over 20 years that many people thought was gay. He was not, but had motor skill disabilities and was very “feminine” in his gestures that led people to think this. The trouble he had getting a simple job, including the recent past, in just ridiculous. At one time, for one job, he sent out over 200 resumes, had dozens of interviews based on credentials and took over two years to get a job. It all had to do with is “apparent” sexual orientation, not to do with reality.

We have become a godless society where we classify young supposed “effeminate” boys as “gay” even though God did not create them this way which has also had the effect of allowing the gay lobby to get a foothold.

 

[Catolico65]

God made people with same sex attraction. Everything God makes is perfect so there is no need to change anything God made.

If the bible explicitly says that homosexuals should under go reparitive therapy it is wrong but the bible doesn’t say that. Read what you want into the bible but it did not say that gays have to change. Catholic teaching today teaching SSA is not sinful.

If you advise a gay youth to undergo reparitve therapy and they can’t and they end up committing suicide would that be assisted suicide. You be the judge.

There are bi-sexuals and people who claim to have changed but still have gay sex. Orientation can be changed but it is rare. Read the literature.

God did not make people with SSA, that is in the Bible, Catechism and this is what science has shown us. The gay lobby doesn’t want you to know this.

Therefore, whoever tells a young person that God made them homosexual commits the sin of misleading a child.

 

[Catolico65]

Having known chaste gay people I’d say that is quite doubtful, neither were ever sexually active AFAIK or even attempted to date. One of them gave up on trying to be “cured” after praying the rosary multiple times a day, daily Mass, Eucharistic Adoration, extensive corporal works of mercy, etc. and no lessening of the feelings. Of course the feelings themselves weren’t sexual, they were a desire to love, be loved and for intimacy.



The percent of people who commit suicide and are LGBT is not important, what is important is the percent of LGBT people who commit suicide is.

This whole need to “fix” people seems to be the result of some misguided belief that marriage is better than celibacy (which it isn’t by the way).

Some people seem to make a full switch, but when quite a number of them get caught cheating on their spouse with someone of the same sex.

He claims that many studies, but I don’t think there are even that many peer reviewed studies on homosexuality and closely related things, let alone ones that support his claims.

I don’t think that is within the Church’s domain anymore than proclaiming one color better than another.

No one is giving them what they need, the LGBT community cares, but doesn’t have the solution and conservative Christians don’t care enough to figure out how to apply a solution in a livable way

So you deluded yourself into thinking you were gay and you psychosomatically experienced what you perceived to be same sex attraction, now you are claiming your extremely atypical experience is a universal thing because you want everyone to be saved like you were? That explains a lot and I think it is tragic.

Your attempt to discredit the report I posted is a failure. It is also clear your point of partaking in these thread is to promote homosexuality as normal given that you will not respond to my questions about homosexuality in the CC.

I think you should contemplate what it means to submit to the Word of God, He loves you.

 

[Catolico65]

As a gay man I can attest to that. I have many friends and acquaintances who accept me for who I am and not my sexual orientation. I have no need or desire to push it in anyone’s face or do I have a need to hide it.

With all due respect I believe your objectivity in this matter is in question. Paz.

 

[frobert]

With all due respect your statement that deep seated SSA is permanent is a LIE, many people have left an active homosexual lifestyle after many years to get married, FACT.
.

I respect your passion and am delighted to know that there are people like you but please review legitimate literature before you make such a statement. There are rare reports in early psychoanalytical studies of people who have changed orientations but outside of therapists vested in christian therapies I would am hard pressed to find any recent ones. Even the Catholic church admits that it is quite possible that SSA is inherent.

I do not disagree that many gays are not actively involved in same sex involvement and some get married. I have seen the results of some who got married and reverted to gay sex on the side. One family that I treated and has haunted for over 30 years is that of a bi-sexual who married to avoid being gay but reverted to homosexual activity, was infected with AIDS and passed it on to his wife. This was in the early 80s. Please advocate for celebrancy especially among bisexuals and gays who are married.

I do not believe that this was God’s revenge but rather it was due to human nature.

 

[Catolico65]

I respect your passion and am delighted to know that there are people like you but please review legitimate literature before you make such a statement. There are rare reports in early psychoanalytical studies of people who have changed orientations but outside of therapists vested in christian therapies I would am hard pressed to find any. Even the Catholic church admits that it is quite possible that SSA is inherent.

I do not disagree that many gays are not actively involved in same sex involvement and some get married. I have seen the results of some who got married. One family that I treated and has haunted for 40 years is a bi-sexual who married to avoid being gay but reverted to homosexual activity, was infected with AIDS and passed it on to his wife. This was in the early 80s. Please advocate for celebrancy especially among bisexuals who are married.

What you state is propaganda. I read the Catholic Churches official web pages in English and Spanish and there are always plenty of examples of people leaving the homosexual lifestyle behind. Furthermore, from a compilation of more than 10,000 studies we know SSA is for the majority of people and as such there are more ex homosexuals in existence than homosexuals. FACT.

The Catholic Church has not stated that SSA is inherent. Furthermore, with more studies coming out and debunking the biological genesis of homosexuality I expect the Catechism to be revised to reflect this.

Finally, what you should know if the gay lobby is diabolic and will do whatever they can to mislead people. You as a Catholic should suspect anything they say but rather defer to the CC regarding these matters. You should also give precedence to other Christians in the scientific field over known liars, the gay lobby, after all they are your brothers in Christ.

 

[frobert]

What you state is propaganda. I read the Catholic Churches official web pages in English and Spanish and there are always plenty of examples of people leaving the homosexual lifestyle behind.

The Catholic Church has not stated that SSA is inherent. Furthermore, with more studies coming out and debunking the biological genesis of homosexuality I expect the Catechism to be revised to reflect this.

Finally, what you should know if the gay lobby is diabolic and will do whatever they can to mislead people. You as a Catholic should suspect anything they say but ratehr defer to the CC regarding these matter and real science.

Whether the gay lobby is diabolic or not is not the issure. The issue is the damage, from first hand informatives, of the damage these people are doing.

Whatever you say you can not get over the fact that outside of the vested interests you read that no legitimate therapists are publishing such rubbish (chosen word). Catholic teachings do not tell or direct you in any way to advocate for questionable therapies. Do not use the catholic church as an excuse. You are doing it for your own reasons. Please you are a good person look into your motives.

 

[Catolico65]

Whatever you say you can not get over the fact that outside of the vested interests you read that no legitimate therapists are publishing such rubbish (chosen word). Catholic teachings do not tell or direct you in any way to advocate for questionable therapies. Do not use the catholic church as an excuse.

The Catholic Church states homosexuality is unnatural(not ordained by God) and psychological in genesis, FACT.

That means it can change. It did for me and millions of others. FACT.

Homosexuality is diabolic, it serves no purpose but to destroy.