Gay marriage a 'Trojan horse', says Catholic cardinal

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We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. The church has a doctrine that treats one class of individuals as different/ inferior to others. In fact, as a matter of faith, the church has determined that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered” and “are contrary to natural law”. This is in the face of scientific findings to the contrary. This arbitrary treatment of your fellow man is either out of hatred or of ignorance. I would ask, where is YOUR evidence?
 
SWolf said:
Homosexual acts are condemned, yes. It’s not just the Church. If you look at the Red Cross, they don’t allow you to donate blood if you commit sodomy. I wonder why? They must be bigots, right?

Let’s start with fundamentals. What is the difference between fraternal brotherhood of two best friends, and two homosexuals who are ‘married’. What act differentiates the two?
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So, the Church, following the Red Cross’s lead, is also opposed to travel to Haiti? Is travel to Haiti intrinsically disordered? Or might there be another reason for the Red Cross’s procedure?
 
The Church didn’t determine that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. That was determined by the nature of man and woman and the anatomy of our reproductive systems. Every society has pretty much recognized that fact, up till now. Even those societies which had no problem with homosexual acts recognized that they were quite different from heterosexual acts, and did not treat them as marital, or same sex partners as eligible for marriage.

Human beings come in two kinds: man and woman. That the human race has continued relies on that fact. Feelings, proclivities, orientations, are just that–particular feelings that can not be the basis of marriage law.
 
JimG said:
The Church didn’t determine that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. That was determined by the nature of man and woman and the anatomy of our reproductive systems. Every society has pretty much recognized that fact, up till now. Even those societies which had no problem with homosexual acts recognized that they were quite different from heterosexual acts, and did not treat them as marital, or same sex partners as eligible for marriage.

Human beings come in two kinds: man and woman. That the human race has continued relies on that fact. Feelings, proclivities, orientations, are just that–particular feelings that can not be the basis of marriage law.
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So, what I’m hearing from you is that every society in human history has had homosexuality. Show me the science that confirms the church’s determination that it is “intrinsically disordered”. Show your evidence.
 
johnlal said:
So, what I’m hearing from you is that every society in human history has had homosexuality. Show me the science that confirms the church’s determination that it is “intrinsically disordered”. Show your evidence.
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The term “intrinsically disordered” is a moral judgement of an action based on Natural Law. Science has no say in what is and is not moral.

If you want, JPII’s Theology of the body goes over the proper role of reproduction very well.

Note:
Masturbation is also intrinsically disordered
Oral sex is also intrinsically disordered
Husband and wife mimicking two gay men is intrinsically disordered

What do these items have in common? They don’t fulfill the conjugal act properly.
 
SWolf said:
Science has no say in what is and is not moral.
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Ah, well then the poster who demanded evidence of me above, and yet has nothing to show for this bare ancient taboo should maybe make sure he has something to offer before he asks me to offer proof. A moral judgment based on absolutely no proof is prejudice. It is either made in ignorance or it is made with hatred.
I love that the current Pope is putting an end to this. I only wish my friend would have had a chance to see this pope before he took his life. He couldn’t reconcile the way God made him with the arbitrary hatred of the church he grew up to love. I think this pope would have made him feel wanted and loved.
 
johnlal said:
Ah, well then the poster who demanded evidence of me above, and yet has nothing to show for this bare ancient taboo should maybe make sure he has something to offer before he asks me to offer proof. A moral judgment based on absolutely no proof is prejudice. It is either made in ignorance or it is made with hatred.
I love that the current Pope is putting an end to this. I only wish my friend would have had a chance to see this pope before he took his life. He couldn’t reconcile the way God made him with the arbitrary hatred of the church he grew up to love. I think this pope would have made him feel wanted and loved.
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You seem to be under the impression that scientific proof is the only meaningful proof.

Prayers for your friend.
 
johnlal said:
Ah, well then the poster who demanded evidence of me above, and yet has nothing to show for this bare ancient taboo should maybe make sure he has something to offer before he asks me to offer proof. A moral judgment based on absolutely no proof is prejudice. It is either made in ignorance or it is made with hatred.
I love that the current Pope is putting an end to this. I only wish my friend would have had a chance to see this pope before he took his life. He couldn’t reconcile the way God made him with the arbitrary hatred of the church he grew up to love. I think this pope would have made him feel wanted and loved.
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Why is it that you object to Card Bagnasco saying gay marriage is a “trojan horse”, but not to Francis saying gay marriage is a “destructive attack on God’s plan”, a “total rejection of God’s law engraved on our hearts”, “an anthropological regression”, “a move of the Father of Lies to confuse and deceive the children of God”, etc?
 
McCall1981 said:
Why is it that you object to Card Bagnasco saying gay marriage is a “trojan horse”, but not to Francis saying gay marriage is a “destructive attack on God’s plan”, a “total rejection of God’s law engraved on our hearts”, “an anthropological regression”, “a move of the Father of Lies to confuse and deceive the children of God”, etc?
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I much prefer his more recent quotes. “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”
"A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: “Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?”
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context…We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.”
This gives me hope.
 
johnlal said:
I much prefer his more recent quotes. “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”
"A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: “Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?”
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context…We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.”
This gives me hope.
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Recent quotes like “marriage is between a man and a woman”?

Or the conference he organized (and gave the opening address at) a couple of weeks ago? It brought together leaders from all the major world religions to discuss and promote the complimentarity of men and women in marriage.

Kind of strange way to be “putting an end to” this, no?
 
DaddyGirl said:
Some of the same-sex couples I know are the least hedonistic, egotistical, selfish, ungodly people I’ve ever met.

.
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It still doesn’t make it any less ungodly and evil; or at the very least, disordered.
 
JackieO123 said:
It still doesn’t make it any less ungodly and evil; or at the very least, disordered.
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I must ask you to retract the slurs in this one. If the Pope is not one to judge, neither are you. Please be civil.
 
johnlal said:
I must ask you to retract the slurs in this one. If the Pope is not one to judge, neither are you. Please be civil.
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These are not slurs; it is a fact that homosexual relationships are at the very least disordered and against God’s plan. I am being plenty civil.
 
Please carefully read Fr. Jose’s testimony. He is a real priest in Florida.
First, the angel escorted me to hell. It was an awful sight! I saw Satan and the devils, an unquenchable fire of about 2,000 Fahrenheit degrees, worms crawling, people screaming and fighting, others being tortured by demons. The angel told me that all these sufferings were due to unrepented mortal sins. Then, I understood that there are seven degrees of suffering or levels according to the number and kinds of mortal sins committed in their earthly lives. The souls looked very ugly, cruel and horrific. It was a fearful experience. I saw people whom I knew but I am not allowed to reveal their identities. The sins that convicted them were mainly abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, hatefulness, unforgiveness and sacrilege.
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frmaniyangathealingministry.com/Content/viewcontent.aspx?linkId=41&linkLvl1Id=6
 
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