Gay Marriage and Freedom of Religion

[NoMoreGames]

Genesis also says a lot of things that aren’t strictly followed in current days.

Why do you think this has happened? Could it be that hu/mans have decided they are greater than God and can make up their own laws?

Not even the church follows them. Does that mean the church has decided they are greater than God? No, they just aren’t really applicable any more.

 

[elts1956]

Not even the church follows them. Does that mean the church has decided they are greater than God? No, they just aren’t really applicable any more.

Show me which Church you are talking about. The laws haven’t changed, just people’s Faith.

 

[NoMoreGames]

Show me which Church you are talking about. The laws haven’t changed, just people’s Faith.

Lev (not Gen, sorry) Chapter 11. Verse 12, essentially anything from the water that does not have fins or scales shall not be eaten. These are the words of God himself, but I’m guess ing you eaten a crab, or scallop. The church does not teach that those are wrong to eat, it’s not that people just don’t believe it.

 

[elts1956]

Lev (not Gen, sorry) Chapter 11. Verse 12, essentially anything from the water that does not have fins or scales shall not be eaten. These are the words of God himself, but I’m guess ing you eaten a crab, or scallop. The church does not teach that those are wrong to eat, it’s not that people just don’t believe it.

Yes, you are right. And St. Peter didn’t eat pork until Jesus told him it was okay. But where is it in the Bible, or other Church teaching that homosexual unions are acceptable?

 

[royal_archer]

There are indeed consequences to actions, part of freedom is the responsibility to accept the consequences of the actions you choose.

Honestly, I would be shocked if you could find a term to call me that is offensve to me.

Why do i insist on being insulting others? Making something legal that other people may not agree with is not insulting them. Atheists may find any church insulting to the collective scientific intelligence of humanity, yet they accept that people have to freedom to practice if they so desire. They realize that other peoples beliefs do not change what they are free to believe and let them practice as they wish.

Once again you highlight the double standard. If you notice the atheist get very upset when you want to introduce anything remotely associated with religion into the science class rooms. That is because the atheist have narrowly defined the term “science” in such a way as to exclude anything of a devine nature.

 

[NoMoreGames]

Yes, you are right. And St. Peter didn’t eat pork until Jesus told him it was okay. But where is it in the Bible, or other Church teaching that homosexual unions are acceptable?

Did jesus say it was ok to eat crab? I know this needs more of an explanation, but the homosexuality referred to in the bible is different. In biblical times, the term homosexuality referred to what we would now call “the gay lifestyle,” that is sleeping around with anyone and everyone. There is no mention of monogamous gay relationships as they exist today (which are the ones that have to do with marriage). I’m not saying what was called homosexuality then doesn’t exist now, it most definitely does at it remains as wrong as it did then (just as straight promiscuity). Jesus spoke out against so many sins (prostitution, dishonesty, selfishness), why do we have to wait till the letters to hear about homosexuality?

 

[royal_archer]

The church actually teaches that civil divorce is acceptable if it is the only viable option. (Something I wasn’t aware of until this topic) So apparently marriage CAN be broken.

Please provide the reference for that one. It is my understanding that a couple can get a divorce to break the civil union in extreme cases but never the marriage if it was a valid marriage.

 

[NoMoreGames]

Please provide the reference for that one. It is my understanding that a couple can get a divorce to break the civil union in extreme cases but never the marriage if it was a valid marriage.

Are you really going to make me search through 50+ pages?

So if a couple gets married in the church, lives 10 years together and has a family, then meets an extreme case and get divorced, how can it be argued that it wasn’t a valid marriage?

 

[Methodi]

Please provide the reference for that one. It is my understanding that a couple can get a divorce to break the civil union in extreme cases but never the marriage if it was a valid marriage.

The catholic Church does not recognize civil marriage between catholics as a valid marriage

 

[royal_archer]

Are you really going to make me search through 50+ pages?

So if a couple gets married in the church, lives 10 years together and has a family, then meets an extreme case and get divorced, how can it be argued that it wasn’t a valid marriage?

There can be a separation or civil divorce for extreme cases such as the safety of a spouse or the kids but that individual may not enter into another reationship. Anulment is a clearly undersood situation by catholics.

 

[magdelaine]

Did jesus say it was ok to eat crab? I know this needs more of an explanation, but the homosexuality referred to in the bible is different. In biblical times, the term homosexuality referred to what we would now call “the gay lifestyle,” that is sleeping around with anyone and everyone. There is no mention of monogamous gay relationships as they exist today (which are the ones that have to do with marriage). I’m not saying what was called homosexuality then doesn’t exist now, it most definitely does at it remains as wrong as it did then (just as straight promiscuity). Jesus spoke out against so many sins (prostitution, dishonesty, selfishness), why do we have to wait till the letters to hear about homosexuality?

Again, your knowledge of Natural Law, what the Church teaches on sexuality and why she teaches it is woefully lacking. May I recommend a book?

Theology of the Body for Beginners

Theology of the Body is Pope John Paul the Great’s intellectual gift to the Church. You could call it the culmination of the philosophy of Natural Law as it can only be explained with the guidance of Church doctrine and the Holy Spirit.

You call yourself Catholic. You say you attend Mass. At least do us all the courtesy of learning the **what **and **why **of Church teaching before you insist you know better.

 

[NoMoreGames]

Again, your knowledge of Natural Law, what the Church teaches on sexuality and why she teaches it is woefully lacking. May I recommend a book?

Theology of the Body for Beginners

Theology of the Body is Pope John Paul the Great’s intellectual gift to the Church. You could call it the culmination of the philosophy of Natural Law as it can only be explained with the guidance of Church doctrine and the Holy Spirit.

You call yourself Catholic. You say you attend Mass. At least do us all the courtesy of learning the **what **and **why **of Church teaching before you insist you know better.

I’ll look into to but that quote had nothing of natural law.

and before you tell me i know nothing about the catholic church, realize this started out as a discussion of the reasons is should be forbidden in society but it was those who know the church so well that were unable to give any other reasons than religious, hence taking it off topic.

 

[royal_archer]

The catholic Church does not recognize civil marriage between catholics as a valid marriage

You are correct but there is normally a civil aspect of a marriage betwen catholics. While a couple could get a civil devorse they are still spiritually married.

 

[NoMoreGames]

There can be a separation or civil divorce for extreme cases such as the safety of a spouse or the kids but that individual may not enter into another reationship. Anulment is a clearly undersood situation by catholics.

I’ve asked many people about annulments (because the concept makes me head spin) and how they work but i’ve never gotten an answer. Can you help me out?

 

[NoMoreGames]

You are correct but there is normally a civil aspect of a marriage betwen catholics. While a couple could get a civil devorse they are still spiritually married.

Ok, if you acknowledge that there is a civil aspect of marriage (civil meaning controlled by the state), why can’t that aspect of marriage be changed?

 

[magdelaine]

I’ll look into to but that quote had nothing of natural law.

and before you tell me i know nothing about the catholic church, realize this started out as a discussion of the reasons is should be forbidden in society but it was those who know the church so well that were unable to give any other reasons than religious, hence taking it off topic.

Ummm, it was you that brought religion back into the conversation. You were implying the the homosexuality that is discussed in the Bible is somehow not like monogamous homosexuality; that monogamous homosexuality would not be condemned.

I’m sorry, but if you understood Natural Law, you would never make such a claim.

On a personal note, I was once just as confused about contraception as you are about same sex sexual relationships. I finally found that Church teaching in this area to be the most beautiful and liberating moral philosophies I’ve ever had the pleasure to learn; but not after a lot of struggle. I’m praying for you in this journey!

By the way, did you ever check out Eve Tushnet or John Heard?

 

[elts1956]

Did jesus say it was ok to eat crab? I know this needs more of an explanation, but the homosexuality referred to in the bible is different. In biblical times, the term homosexuality referred to what we would now call “the gay lifestyle,” that is sleeping around with anyone and everyone. There is no mention of monogamous gay relationships as they exist today (which are the ones that have to do with marriage). I’m not saying what was called homosexuality then doesn’t exist now, it most definitely does at it remains as wrong as it did then (just as straight promiscuity). Jesus spoke out against so many sins (prostitution, dishonesty, selfishness), why do we have to wait till the letters to hear about homosexuality?

How do you know it was different. The Bible doesn’t get into specifics, just says it’s wrong…

 

[NoMoreGames]

Ummm, it was you that brought religion back into the conversation. You were implying the the homosexuality that is discussed in the Bible is somehow not like monogamous homosexuality; that monogamous homosexuality would not be condemned.

I’m sorry, but if you understood Natural Law, you would never make such a claim.

On a personal note, I was once just as confused about contraception as you are about same sex sexual relationships. I finally found that Church teaching in this area to be the most beautiful and liberating moral philosophies I’ve ever had the pleasure to learn; but not after a lot of struggle. I’m praying for you in this journey!

By the way, did you ever check out Eve Tushnet or John Heard?

Prayers are always appreciated

I completely unerstand the church’s teaching on contraception. In fact, I had that position before I looked into what the chruch taught. It prevents life. How does entering a gay marriage prevent life any more than living as a celibate gay?

People have made so much mention of natural law, and I’ve tried so hard to see how it says homosexuality is immoral but I really just don’t see the connection. And that really could be the root of my lack of understanding of what it says in the first place. Wanna give it another go?

 

[royal_archer]

I’ve asked many people about annulments (because the concept makes me head spin) and how they work but i’ve never gotten an answer. Can you help me out?

A marriage can never be dissolved. The appearance of a union and the recognition of that union may cease if it is later determined that a valid marriage never existed.

 

[NoMoreGames]

How do you know it was different. The Bible doesn’t get into specifics, just says it’s wrong…

yes this is true. What I meant was that the meaning of the term homosexual/ity was different in biblical times than it is today. Sure being attracted to the same sex was included, but the part the jewish community looked down on was the greek concept of teenagers sleeping with everyone and every ones (which is how same sex is included). This is why even the greeks did not have homosexual marriage. That’s like saying promiscuous marriage, which is different that the current concept of homosexual marriage.