Gay Marriage and Freedom of Religion

[eichenb2]

Christian Perfection? I wish I could count how many times I have been told by teachers and preists alike that Jesus was the only perfect person because he was the son of God. He died so that we could be forgiven for out imperfections. We pray and go to confessions for forgiveness for our imperfections. To tell someone to deny themselves as a person in order to be perfect is hypocrisy.

Christian perfection is the supernatural or spiritual union with God which is possible of attainment in this life, and which may be called relative perfection, compatible with the absence of beatitude, and the presence of human miseries, rebellious passions, and even venial sins to which a just man is liable without a special grace and privilege of God. This perfection consists in charity, in the degree in which it is attainable in this life (Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:14; 1 Corinthians 12:31, and 13:13). This is the universal teaching of the Fathers and of theologians. Charity unites the soul with God as its supernatural end, and removes from the soul all that is opposed to that union. “God is charity; and he that abideth in charity abideth in God, and God in him” (1 John 4:16). Francisco Suárez explains that perfection can be attributed to charity in three ways: (1) substantially or essentially, because the essence of union with God consists in charity for the habit as well as for the endeavour or pursuit of perfection; (2) principally, because it has the chief share in the process of perfection; (3) entirely, for all other virtues necessarily accompany charity and are ordained by it to the supreme end. It is true that faith and hope are prerequisites for perfection in this life, but they do not constitute it, for in heaven, where perfection is complete and absolute, faith and hope no longer remain. The other virtues therefore belong to perfection in a secondary and accidental manner, because charity cannot exist without them and their exercise, but they without charity do not unite the soul supernaturally to God. (Lib. I, De Statu Perfectionis, Cap. iii).

 

[NoMoreGames]

I am not sure where to begin with this one.

1. How could you conceivably know that kids raised by “gay parents” “end up with a wider, less biased view of the world than most kids”? Do you have statistics? Did you see a documentary? Or…are you making a general statment that you believe supports your views???

perhaps none exists, just as none exists for you to say it adds to confusion.

 

[eichenb2]

My dear friend in Christ,

You might be interested in knowing that “marriage” is an inaccurate ans inapproiate term to apply to what is only a “civil union.”

A “marriage” is and has always been defined as follows.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

“Main Entry: mar·riage
Pronunciation: \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century
1 a (1):** the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law **(2): the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage b: the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c: the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage”

My second point is that a “civil union” is not a religious act, it is not a religious sect, and it franky is anti-any-and all Catholic and Christian religions.

Friend, heaven and hell are real. But it’s not God that decides where we are going to spend eterinity, it is our own personal life decissions.

Every civil union that permits two gender equal partners, is a grave moral disorder. And is well into the slippery road of decadence.

Friend, please understand, that I have as a IPRC, a moral obligation to share the truth. I would have much preferred to have this conversation with you in private, but you chose to be on CAF…

CATHOLIC ANSWERS FORUM, God bless you!

Well said!

 

[NoMoreGames]

After thirteen pages of often sidetracked debate, I figured I should refocus.

The point of this thread was NOT to debate if homosexual marriage should be considered moral or if it should be accepted by Catholicism, we all know it is not. It was to provoke discussion on the grounds to which it is denied to a nation partially built on the separation of church and state.

Any discussions any personal orietation, advice to those you feel are going to hell, or why the church feels it is wrong should be kept to a minimum in an attempt to keep this on topic (i know i am probably guilty of this the most )

Also, if using “natural law” as grounds, perhaps explain further, because that is a VERY broad subject containing aspects of both religion and philosophy and can support either side.

 

[eichenb2]

perhaps none exists, just as none exists for you to say it adds to confusion.

Opposite of ORDER is CONFUSION
Homosexual activity is DISORDERED, hence CONFUSED and CONFUSING to young people who are trying to make sense of there own hormones and feelings. To me, if one has is to be a Catholic, one has to accept and teachings of the Catholic Church and surrender to them, even when they say we are wrong.

 

[whyallthefuss]

I am not sure where to begin with this one.

1. How could you conceivably know that kids raised by “gay parents” “end up with a wider, less biased view of the world than most kids”? Do you have statistics? Did you see a documentary? Or…are you making a general statment that you believe supports your views???
2. The Church does NOT and have NEVER supported discrimination based on a perception of same-sex attraction. If people in the society at-large do it, then it is wrong and should be prosecuted.
3. What is homophobia? How do you define it? If by “homophobia” you mean that I am afraid of homosexual behavior; I would say that objective sin is always a cause for consternation. Natural Law and Church teaching is that it is Objectively Disordered and, I understand, that there is a reason for this. I will not stand by idly as the society, where I am trying to raise children embraces objective evil.

The fact that you define homosexuality as evil is homophobia. What do you think is going to happen? Your kids will see a gay person, become gay then go to hell? If you’re worried about your children why don’t you focus on existent threats rather than the personal choice of a group of people.
As for my opinion, I clearly said that I can not speak for everyone but I am only stating the opinions and outcomes of the the gay freinds and family members that I have. As for the rest of the world, if it makes you feel better I’ll call it wishful thinking.
Finally, there have been homosexual members of the catholic church who have been denied certain services simply because of their sexual orientation. Sure, publicly the church would deny this and though the pope himslef may not condone it (I would guess) its what happens in our communities that matter, not the overall view of an entire religion.

 

[whyallthefuss]

perhaps none exists, just as none exists for you to say it adds to confusion.

 

[NoMoreGames]

Opposite of ORDER is CONFUSION
Homosexual activity is DISORDERED, hence CONFUSED and CONFUSING to young people who are trying to make sense of there own hormones and feelings. To me, if one has is to be a Catholic, one has to accept and teachings of the Catholic Church and surrender to them, even when they say we are wrong.

The belief that it is disordered is a religious one, granted there are purely secular reasons for it as well, those are not very common.

Do you ever have the feeling that something you think is right, no matter how many people tell you that you’re wrong? Imagine that but times 100 and you basically have what, I would guess, is what Catholic gays feel. They love God, and are living their live for God, and their lover brings them close to God. For that standpoint, it is hard to see any logical reason that it is wrong with nothing evil or negative comes out of it.

Side note, the belief that you should blindly believe what you are told is what led the Catholic church to be infiltrated with corruption in eras past. Those wishing to do harm knew followers would believe them.

 

[whyallthefuss]

Christian perfection is the supernatural or spiritual union with God which is possible of attainment in this life, and which may be called relative perfection, compatible with the absence of beatitude, and the presence of human miseries, rebellious passions, and even venial sins to which a just man is liable without a special grace and privilege of God. This perfection consists in charity, in the degree in which it is attainable in this life (Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:14; 1 Corinthians 12:31, and 13:13). This is the universal teaching of the Fathers and of theologians. Charity unites the soul with God as its supernatural end, and removes from the soul all that is opposed to that union. “God is charity; and he that abideth in charity abideth in God, and God in him” (1 John 4:16). Francisco Suárez explains that perfection can be attributed to charity in three ways: (1) substantially or essentially, because the essence of union with God consists in charity for the habit as well as for the endeavour or pursuit of perfection; (2) principally, because it has the chief share in the process of perfection; (3) entirely, for all other virtues necessarily accompany charity and are ordained by it to the supreme end. It is true that faith and hope are prerequisites for perfection in this life, but they do not constitute it, for in heaven, where perfection is complete and absolute, faith and hope no longer remain. The other virtues therefore belong to perfection in a secondary and accidental manner, because charity cannot exist without them and their exercise, but they without charity do not unite the soul supernaturally to God. (Lib. I, De Statu Perfectionis, Cap. iii).

Ok…Research and quotes can be put to great use but im sorry to say its on the wrong topic.
Almost every religion requires a level of humanity that is humanly possible. However, my point was to say its wrong to say someone is especially not perfect because they are a non-celibate homosexual.

 

[eichenb2]

The fact that you define homosexuality as evil is homophobia. What do you think is going to happen? Your kids will see a gay person, become gay then go to hell? If you’re worried about your children why don’t you focus on existent threats rather than the personal choice of a group of people.
As for my opinion, I clearly said that I can not speak for everyone but I am only stating the opinions and outcomes of the the gay freinds and family members that I have. As for the rest of the world, if it makes you feel better I’ll call it wishful thinking.
Finally, there have been homosexual members of the catholic church who have been denied certain services simply because of their sexual orientation. Sure, publicly the church would deny this and though the pope himslef may not condone it (I would guess) its what happens in our communities that matter, not the overall view of an entire religion.

Let us cut to the chase! Do you know that the Catholic Church teaches that homosexual activity is objectively disordered? Also, it is classified as GRAVE MATTER and can be MORTAL SIN. If mortal sin, which can damn us, is not EVIL, I am not sure what is? So…by your reasoning the Catholic Church (the one that Christ established is teaching false doctrine and is homophobic???
I want my children to live in a society that “calls a spade a spade”. I already teach them it is wrong.

 

[NoMoreGames]

Let us cut to the chase! Do you know that the Catholic Church teaches that homosexual activity is objectively disordered? Also, it is classified as GRAVE MATTER and can be MORTAL SIN. If mortal sin, which can damn us, is not EVIL, I am not sure what is? So…by your reasoning the Catholic Church (the one that Christ established is teaching false doctrine and is homophobic???
I want my children to live in a society that “calls a spade a spade”. I already teach them it is wrong.

You 100% completely have the right to raise you kids to believe as you want them to, but that should not compromise what others have the right to do. If you teach that homosexuality is wrong, your child should grow up with that belief, but you should not make society conform to these desires.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Maybe under the Catholic view, those are what marriage is, but to some one of a different faith, or no faith at all (as protected by the Bill of Rights) those may not be crucial ingredients. If Muslims overtook the united states and demanded prayer to Allah at all the proper hours, you would be upset, right? Well in this case, those against allowing gay marriage in a legal aspect, not religious, are the Muslims from the example (nothing against Muslims, just the first example that came to mind)

As far as being against the natural law, what are non organic drugs, or machines that keep people breathing after their brains have stop functioning? Everything has to be brought into perspective.

And dkdempsey, if you’re going to be sarcastic and rude, please refrain from speaking. I’m looking for an honest debate.

I think you are quite right. Catholics and other denominations who appose gay rights do so because of a misreading of the Bible. They don’t realize that the type of behavior that was objected to in the bible, has nothing to do with the average loving homosexual relationship today. The idea of “natural law” is a stoic Greek invention. This was married to a dislike and abhorrance of the male temple prostitute and a desire to separate from all things pagan and ended up being an anti homosexual argument.

Paul, nor any of those of his time had a clue about what homosexuality really was. They moreover, had no name for it,the word homosexual being an invention of the 18th century. There was no idea that a person was born that way. The behavior was thought to be the result of as I said either temple prostitute where men “acted effeminately” against “natural law” and the proper power base of being a man, or they were acting out of unbounded lust that was so out of control that women were not enough anymore. They believed that such unbridled lust led to abuse of the other person, who by being overpowered was again acting against their sex, being womanish.

While those practices are to be probably thought of as wrong, they have nothing to do with today. And it is not at all clear that Paul would come to the same conclusion if given the proper information. He speaks in the same language of his day and clearly viewed homosexuality from the same limited manner as did the Greco-Roman world of his time.

 

[eichenb2]

The belief that it is disordered is a religious one, granted there are purely secular reasons for it as well, those are not very common.

Do you ever have the feeling that something you think is right, no matter how many people tell you that you’re wrong? Imagine that but times 100 and you basically have what, I would guess, is what Catholic gays feel. They love God, and are living their live for God, and their lover brings them close to God. For that standpoint, it is hard to see any logical reason that it is wrong with nothing evil or negative comes out of it.

Side note, the belief that you should blindly believe what you are told is what led the Catholic church to be infiltrated with corruption in eras past. Those wishing to do harm knew followers would believe them.

Natural Law also leads us to believe homosexual activity is wrong.
However, you feel about it, LOVE means sacrifice. We have to sacrifice sometimes. Sometimes we think we are right and even insist that we are correct (questioning Church teaching) only to find out that Church is right.

Christ said
15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

If you believe in Christ trust Him. First, that he knows what is best for you and second, that He will support you in avoiding Mortal Sin.
If not, do whatever you want and try to justify it. This ploy seems to be working for you so far.

 

[whyallthefuss]

Let us cut to the chase! Do you know that the Catholic Church teaches that homosexual activity is objectively disordered? Also, it is classified as GRAVE MATTER and can be MORTAL SIN. If mortal sin, which can damn us, is not EVIL, I am not sure what is? So…by your reasoning the Catholic Church (the one that Christ established is teaching false doctrine and is homophobic???
I want my children to live in a society that “calls a spade a spade”. I already teach them it is wrong.

Well the catholic church has taught and carried out many things since its beginning that are considered crimes today (and in some cases, when they were carried out). If I know anything, its to not trust blindly because anyone looking for an unquestioning following is not ready to learn or addapt even when they are wrong.
By the way, you said that gay parents would “confuse” their children, well from the sound of it, I’m ready to bet you haven’t taught you children the relationship side of homosexuality, am I right? You’ve told them that everything about a gay person is wrong. What if you child is gay? Congratulations you have just completely confused your child and are about to send him/her out into a world as a self hating homophobic (yes homophobic) person.

 

[NoMoreGames]

Natural Law also leads us to believe homosexual activity is wrong.
However, you feel about it, LOVE means sacrifice. We have to sacrifice sometimes. Sometimes we think we are right and even insist that we are correct (questioning Church teaching) only to find out that Church is right.

Christ said
15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

If you believe in Christ trust Him. First, that he knows what is best for you and second, that He will support you in avoiding Mortal Sin.
If not, do whatever you want and try to justify it. This ploy seems to be working for you so far.

First off, how do you know that the spirit is not in me and I’m not following it? I’m not saying it is or is not, but this isn’t bout justifying actions, it is abot looking at all sides of an issue, not just ones you’re familar with.

But I state again, the purpose of this topic was not to discus the religious aspect, since we all know where the church stands, but instead why it should be denied in society without a religious basis.

 

[eichenb2]

You 100% completely have the right to raise you kids to believe as you want them to, but that should not compromise what others have the right to do. If you teach that homosexuality is wrong, your child should grow up with that belief, but you should not make society conform to these desires.

What??? I believe adultery is wrong and 100% support laws to punish adultery, like getting rid of no fault divorce. The same is true of abortion. A society has a right to banned those behaviors that it collectively finds descructive to the social morality. I am MANY other feel this way about homosexual ACTIVITY. Oh…and I vote!

 

[NoMoreGames]

Please explain, using natural law without a religious basis, on why homosexuality goes against natural law.

 

[NoMoreGames]

What??? I believe adultery is wrong and 100% support laws to punish adultery, like getting rid of no fault divorce. The same is true of abortion. A society has a right to banned those behaviors that it collectively finds descructive to the social morality. I am MANY other feel this way about homosexual ACTIVITY. Oh…and I vote!

So if gays were totally silent in society, as in no activity, you wouldn’t mind them marrying? Did i take activity the wrong way? Do you feel homosexuals should have the right to date, or should they be punished for that as well? (these are all honest, non sarcastic, questions). Also (side questions), should i assume you support divorce or not?

 

[eichenb2]

Well the catholic church has taught and carried out many things since its beginning that are considered crimes today (and in some cases, when they were carried out). If I know anything, its to not trust blindly because anyone looking for an unquestioning following is not ready to learn or addapt even when they are wrong.
By the way, you said that gay parents would “confuse” their children, well from the sound of it, I’m ready to bet you haven’t taught you children the relationship side of homosexuality, am I right? You’ve told them that everything about a gay person is wrong. What if you child is gay? Congratulations you have just completely confused your child and are about to send him/her out into a world as a self hating homophobic (yes homophobic) person.

Wow. you replies are complicated.

1. Name one thing that the Catholic held to be Grave Matter and, potentially, Mortal Sin in the past that She now consider OK?
2. Another mistake is to suggest that following the Church’s teaching whole-heartedly is blind. My following is by no means blind. If you stop from constantly listening to the morally relativistic “gay rights” crowd and read about Church history and theology, you could help your understanding greatly.
3. Are you suggesting 2000 years of Church Magisterium is, all of the sudden, wrong on this issue?
4. I teach my children that God created Man and Woman and made them compatable with each other, biologically, physically, and spiritually. Also, we teach them that the devil is an expert at asking, “did God really say…”. In short, we teach them the catechism.
5. I am a self-hating womanizer. I understand that this tendency of mine is disordered and, so trust the Lord and to go good and not do wrong. I am not perfect but that is why there is reconciliation.
6. Are Christian are to be gay…that is have the joy of the Lord. Homosexual is not who a person is. It is an attraction. Just like any disordered attraction, it must be handled with prayer.

 

[eichenb2]

First off, how do you know that the spirit is not in me and I’m not following it? I’m not saying it is or is not, but this isn’t bout justifying actions, it is abot looking at all sides of an issue, not just ones you’re familar with.

But I state again, the purpose of this topic was not to discus the religious aspect, since we all know where the church stands, but instead why it should be denied in society without a religious basis.

Not I, but Christ says it is disordered and objectively wrong. Please, for your own souls sake, understand that Hell is real. God even loves those who are sent to Hell. They choose it though, by there actions.