Gay Marriage and Freedom of Religion

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there must be a lot of underlying pain and the lack a properly formed conscience.
All my pain is gone, and I am now a happy bunny thanks to the wonders of medical science! Now I don’t have myself to worry about any more, I thought I would ‘lash out’ at the opressors who oppose our rights. 🙂
Relying solely on the votes of the states where voters, regardless of demographics, have made their will known, the redefinition of marriage is not desired.
Which is such a shame 😦 Which is why I’m here, to try to get people to realise that rights are universal.
 
All my pain is gone, and I am now a happy bunny thanks to the wonders of medical science! Now I don’t have myself to worry about any more, I thought I would ‘lash out’ at the opressors who oppose our rights. 🙂

I’m glad you feel you are not in pain. I will continue to pray for you.

Which is such a shame 😦 Which is why I’m here, to try to get people to realise that rights are universal.

My friend, if ever a statement went without saying, it is this one. Your agenda is transparent, your chances of changing the mind of a person with a fully formed conscience, nil.

“Rights are universal.” What does that mean, exactly? Who defines the rights?
 
But it’s the catholic position that homosexuality is immoral, not society. All of your arguments to prevent it in this country are still religious, no matter how much you try to make it seem like they are not.
Actually, I’d say it’s the Christian position. However, even Christian’s are changing and trying to become “modern” to stay “in tune with the times”. The Catholic Church has never changed it’s position on faith and morals. And it never will. There’s a reason for that: TRUTH…Once the truth is revealed, it’s there to stay. For us to hang on to whether we completely understand it or not. For us to believe in an authority higher than ourselves.

And weren’t our societies (I’m in Canada) based on Christian foundations? Why are they changing now? Because God is not in many peoples lives. If we allow gay marriage, then why not polygomy? If our views are based on our religious beliefs, is that not one’s right? Isn’t religion where one obtains one’s morals/ beliefs? Without religion, you can believe anything you want. And if we put our religious views/beliefs aside, why not allow euthanasia and abortion? After all, some can’t take suffering well (who can without God?). Some people just don’t want to have another baby. Some people didn’t “plan” it. Some people dont’ want to suffer through a baby with a disability, a disease, etc. Where do we draw the line?
Sorry for going on and on. That’s it for now.

Deanna
 
I’m glad you feel you are not in pain. I will continue to pray for you.
Thanks but that’s really not neccessary…
“Prayre: How to do nothing and still feel as though you are helping”
“Two hands working can achieve more than a million clasped in prayre”
Although I am interested… what exactly do you say to “God” when you “pray” for me?
My friend, if ever a statement went without saying, it is this one. Your agenda is transparent, your chances of changing the mind of a person with a fully formed conscience, nil.
If my agenda is transparent, grreat. I want everybody to know that I am for gay rights.
I don’t believe that my chances are nil. That would be like me telling you that there’s no point in having faith. I my not be changing minds, but I am making my voice heard, which is important.
“Rights are universal.” What does that mean, exactly? Who defines the rights?
“Rights are legal or moral entitlements or permissions.” Nobody “defines” them as such, Rights are part of an important base for society. Without rights, laws tend to loose their meaning. (As an example, we all have the right to decide if we want to engange in sexual activity or not, thus rape is illegal) Saying that “Rights are universal” means that everybody should have the same basic rights, regardless of arbitary things such as age, race, gender and indeed sexual orientation.
Of course, things do tend to get a little more complicated beyond basic rights but the same idea applies. If you want to withold the rights of a person, you need VERY good reason to do so. Sexual orientation is not good reason to prevent people from being granted the rights of married couples.
 
And weren’t our societies (I’m in Canada) based on Christian foundations? Why are they changing now?
Yes, but that was an obvious mistake in hindsight. People change, views change, their beliefs change, and of course we gain more knowledge & understanding about ourselves and our surroundings. Society changes to reflect that.
If we allow gay marriage, then why not polygomy?
If we allow marriage, why not gay marriage? Gay marriage is not the same as polygamy and the arguments are different. This discussion is on gay marriage, not polygamy. If you change the definition of marriage to include more than 2 people, then things get frightfully complicated. (Note that I’m not saying it’s wrong because it’s complicated, just that it is too complicated to discuss here). On the other hand, inclusion of homosexual couples won’t change it much at all from what it is already, since the ideas of marriage as it currently stands (in the legal sense at least) can be applied to homosexual couples without any confusion.
Isn’t religion where one obtains one’s morals/ beliefs?
Not always. My morals are based on what causes harm and what doesn’t.
Without religion, you can believe anything you want.
“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.”
  • David Stevens
 
All my pain is gone, and I am now a happy bunny thanks to the wonders of medical science! Now I don’t have myself to worry about any more, I thought I would ‘lash out’ at the opressors who oppose our rights. 🙂

Which is such a shame 😦 Which is why I’m here, to try to get people to realise that rights are universal.
please note I am only being offensive to make a point. Does the Klan have the right to insult leaders of the communities with which they are in colflict by making references between those leaders and lesser species? I hope you answer no. This conduct is a vile demonstration of hate and an insult. Gay activity is offensive and is likewise the same form of insult when used in association with terms dear to the hearts of us.
 
Although I am interested… what exactly do you say to “God” when you “pray” for me?

Prayers vary from moment to moment…Grant our conflicted, searching or angry brothers and sisters Your light and healing. Harden not their hearts and lead them to You. May they find comfort and joy in You and Your will.

If my agenda is transparent, grreat. I want everybody to know that I am for gay rights.
I don’t believe that my chances are nil. That would be like me telling you that there’s no point in having faith. I my not be changing minds, but I am making my voice heard, which is important.

Trumpet away, my friend. As you attempt to sway others, others will reciprocate to bring you to a readiness for the gift of faith.

“Rights are legal or moral entitlements or permissions.” Nobody “defines” them as such, Rights are part of an important base for society. Without rights, laws tend to loose their meaning. (As an example, we all have the right to decide if we want to engange in sexual activity or not, thus rape is illegal) Saying that “Rights are universal” means that everybody should have the same basic rights, regardless of arbitary things such as age, race, gender and indeed sexual orientation.
Of course, things do tend to get a little more complicated beyond basic rights but the same idea applies. If you want to withold the rights of a person, you need VERY good reason to do so. Sexual orientation is not good reason to prevent people from being granted the rights of married couples

Hmmmm. The voters are out, the individuals who gain are in…
So what you’re saying is that homosexual activists are the arbitrators of what is a right and what isn’t as it pertains to homosexual acts? Interesting view. Then it would be fair for NAMBLA to decide which “rights” they should have, based on their special status, too, if I follow your logic, correctly.

In many cultures, women are chattel and have no rights, sexual or otherwise. This may be abhorrent to us, but to them, it’s absolutely within the scope of rights. Rights, from what I infer from your statement, also vary by group. The deaf who wish to be crossing guards could lobby for it being their “right” to have employment of their choice.

Which leads me back to the question, who gets to arbitrate?
 
Yes, but that was an obvious mistake in hindsight. People change, views change, their beliefs change, and of course we gain more knowledge & understanding about ourselves and our surroundings. Society changes to reflect that.

If we allow marriage, why not gay marriage? Gay marriage is not the same as polygamy and the arguments are different. This discussion is on gay marriage, not polygamy. If you change the definition of marriage to include more than 2 people, then things get frightfully complicated. (Note that I’m not saying it’s wrong because it’s complicated, just that it is too complicated to discuss here). On the other hand, inclusion of homosexual couples won’t change it much at all from what it is already, since the ideas of marriage as it currently stands (in the legal sense at least) can be applied to homosexual couples without any confusion.

Not always. My morals are based on what causes harm and what doesn’t.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.”
  • David Stevens
So, what you’re saying is that the whole world has been making a mistake about marriage since the beginning of time (i.e. thousands of years) and not just since the time of Christ? (i.e. the past 2000 years.)

*If you change the definition of marriage to include more than 2 people, then things get frightfully complicated.

The above (in stars) is your quote.
My question for you is: Who’s definition of marriage are you using?
Another question? Who invented marriage?

I’m also concerned about how you view yourself. Just from a couple of comments you’ve made, it seems that you were led to believe that you were your body was physically “mixed up” and that you were born “wrong” and that you needed to get the “right” body parts to fit with how you felt inside. Who told you that you were born “wrong”? You said you grew up in a “normal” family, but that you were made to do activities that were “masculine”. What kinds of masculine activities were you made to perform?
In another reply you indicated you thought you were “male” until you got older (early 20’s, I think). So, were you right or wrong for the first many years of your life?
 
It violates the rights of children to have parents of two different genders – not two different roles, not two different personalities. Men are not women. Children have a right to be given a chance at the outset to experience an actual father and an actual mother. There is no substitute for that experience. In the event of heterosexual divorce, most children are still not ultimately separated from the opposite gender, but maintain contact or shared custody. But a child without that will never experience a true mother plus a true father (not a fake “mother,” not a gay person who cutely calls the partner “wife” or “husband,” as if anyone, including a child, is deceived by pretentious verbal engineering.)

The way the law works in this country is that certain rights imply other rights. Certain rights govern other rights, and extend rights. I would only approve of gay “marriage” if it could be assured that, unlike heterosexual marriage, homosexual marriage conferred no rights of parenthood. That would never happen under our legal system.
This is where I pull the part of the New Testament that states : soon there will be no distinction between male and female" I’ll find the actual text and passage to validate this. but I have two dad’s and I would consider myself perfectly normal. In a society where people believe that protecting Britney Spears’ 15 minute white trash marriage (but she was on drugs and she is a little better now so no disrespect) is better than letting two men who have been together for 30+ years are evil. Anyway, my parents have totally different personalities. There also not “promiscuous” like many people say all gays are. They love me. They put food on the table. And you must be completely brain dead to think that a child will not have both male and female influence if his/her parents are both the same gender. Think school teachers, policemen, peers, coworkers, CCD teachers. They all come in different genders and will surely have a role in a child’s life so that they can distinguish between a male and a female, cause thats soooooo hard (sarcasm). I’m sorry because I think I’m being a tad bit mean and being carried away. What I believe is that if you hate gays or dislike gays, your saying that to Jesus and God too. You have failed to release yourself from the ignorance of the scriptures, which is ignorance of Christ. And people think that gay marriage is against “traditional values” when after Christ’s time there were Christian gay weddings and homosexual weddings and acts weren’t criminalized until way after. Surely Jesus would have said something against homosexuals when it was rampant during his time. But I believe a progay thing Jesus said was about the born eunuch. Anyway, I have two dad’s and I know the different personalities of men and women. I have had female and male witnesses in my life. I am Catholic. I am abstinent. I thank God that I have loving parents. I get good grades. I believe nobody is perfect, everyone has sinned. I believe in forgiveness. I believe in love. I believe in Jesus. And I apologize to those I have offended with my post, if I have offended anyone.
 
This is where I pull the part of the New Testament that states : soon there will be no distinction between male and female" I’ll find the actual text and passage to validate this. but I have two dad’s and I would consider myself perfectly normal. In a society where people believe that protecting Britney Spears’ 15 minute white trash marriage (but she was on drugs and she is a little better now so no disrespect) is better than letting two men who have been together for 30+ years are evil. Anyway, my parents have totally different personalities. There also not “promiscuous” like many people say all gays are. They love me. They put food on the table. And you must be completely brain dead to think that a child will not have both male and female influence if his/her parents are both the same gender. Think school teachers, policemen, peers, coworkers, CCD teachers. They all come in different genders and will surely have a role in a child’s life so that they can distinguish between a male and a female, cause thats soooooo hard (sarcasm). I’m sorry because I think I’m being a tad bit mean and being carried away. What I believe is that if you hate gays or dislike gays, your saying that to Jesus and God too. You have failed to release yourself from the ignorance of the scriptures, which is ignorance of Christ. And people think that gay marriage is against “traditional values” when after Christ’s time there were Christian gay weddings and homosexual weddings and acts weren’t criminalized until way after. Surely Jesus would have said something against homosexuals when it was rampant during his time. But I believe a progay thing Jesus said was about the born eunuch. Anyway, I have two dad’s and I know the different personalities of men and women. I have had female and male witnesses in my life. I am Catholic. I am abstinent. I thank God that I have loving parents. I get good grades. I believe nobody is perfect, everyone has sinned. I believe in forgiveness. I believe in love. I believe in Jesus. And I apologize to those I have offended with my post, if I have offended anyone.
What I don’t understand is why people equate “discrimination” and “hatred” with the belief that are shared/discussed/preached about certain things being sinful.
Just because I or anybody else believes an act is sinful or evil doesn’t mean we are called to hate. We are called to love everybody. That is, be kind, gentle, etc. We are not called to hate. After all, we all suffer from sin. Pride, envy, jealousy. These, too are serious sins. Just because there is disagreement about beliefs doesn’t mean “hatred”. Get that out of your head! Everybody already!

By the way, who told you there were Gay Christian marriages after the time of Jesus? And if that’s true, what words of wisdom did the Fathers of the Church have for people?

And, the term “discrimination”. No one is stopping them from living the lifestyle they want to live.

Everyone knows science hasn’t proven whether or not someone is born “gay”. Noone seems able to prove it. Whatever the case, we are all called to live chaste lives., whether single or married. No fornication, no adultery, trying not to lust after our spouse and others…to not use people for our own pleasures…and that isn’t only limited to sexual pleasure, either.

By the way, what did Jesus say about the eunuch?
 
This is where I pull the part of the New Testament that states : soon there will be no distinction between male and female"
If you’re alluding to Paul’s Letter about the universality of Christ’s message and the seamlessness of his Mystical Body, wow do you misunderstand this passage. (Galatians 3:28?)

Paul was so NOT confused about gender. Nor was he referring to the obliteration, merging, or interchangeability of gender.

It would be so terrific if people referring to Scripture, or quoting it, would get educated about its contextual meaning. The love emanating from God, through Jesus, never included the love of immorality, and never will.
 
If you’re alluding to Paul’s Letter about the universality of Christ’s message and the seamlessness of his Mystical Body, wow do you misunderstand this passage. (Galatians 3:28?)

Paul was so NOT confused about gender. Nor was he referring to the obliteration, merging, or interchangeability of gender.

It would be so terrific if people referring to Scripture, or quoting it, would get educated about its contextual meaning. The love emanating from God, through Jesus, never included the love of immorality, and never will.
first off, an interpretation can’t be wrong, it’s an interpretation. Also, I know that it doesn’t mean there is no gender, we can all sleep with whoever, so why don’t you stop assuming, because you know what people who assume make themselves? Anyhows, what I meant is we are all God’s children,
 
What I don’t understand is why people equate “discrimination” and “hatred” with the belief that are shared/discussed/preached about certain things being sinful.
Just because I or anybody else believes an act is sinful or evil doesn’t mean we are called to hate. We are called to love everybody. That is, be kind, gentle, etc. We are not called to hate. After all, we all suffer from sin. Pride, envy, jealousy. These, too are serious sins. Just because there is disagreement about beliefs doesn’t mean “hatred”. Get that out of your head! Everybody already!

By the way, who told you there were Gay Christian marriages after the time of Jesus? And if that’s true, what words of wisdom did the Fathers of the Church have for people?

And, the term “discrimination”. No one is stopping them from living the lifestyle they want to live.

Everyone knows science hasn’t proven whether or not someone is born “gay”. Noone seems able to prove it. Whatever the case, we are all called to live chaste lives., whether single or married. No fornication, no adultery, trying not to lust after our spouse and others…to not use people for our own pleasures…and that isn’t only limited to sexual pleasure, either.

By the way, what did Jesus say about the eunuch?
I never mentioned that everyone who thinks something is a sin is full of hate, and I never mentioned discrimination. Born eunuchs is…Matthew 19:12 “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

And maybe this website might make you think : homosexualeunuchsandthebible.com/
 
The law is a teacher. For better, or for worse, it helps form consciences.
This expresses the heart of the matter I think. When we reshape law, especially law surrounding deeply rooted social structures like marriage and the family we are precasting the form that will shape the consiences of future generations.

The fact that new moral views are pressing the established models into shapes that conform to them rather than visa versa shows who’s morals are being forced onto who.

I don’t think the accusation of forcing morals onto others can be voiced by a group that is pushing for radica change.

Thanks fix
 
This is where I pull the part of the New Testament that states : soon there will be no distinction between male and female" I’ll find the actual text and passage to validate this. but I have two dad’s and I would consider myself perfectly normal. In a society where people believe that protecting Britney Spears’ 15 minute white trash marriage (but she was on drugs and she is a little better now so no disrespect) is better than letting two men who have been together for 30+ years are evil. Anyway, my parents have totally different personalities. There also not “promiscuous” like many people say all gays are. They love me. They put food on the table. And you must be completely brain dead to think that a child will not have both male and female influence if his/her parents are both the same gender. Think school teachers, policemen, peers, coworkers, CCD teachers. They all come in different genders and will surely have a role in a child’s life so that they can distinguish between a male and a female, cause thats soooooo hard (sarcasm). I’m sorry because I think I’m being a tad bit mean and being carried away. What I believe is that if you hate gays or dislike gays, your saying that to Jesus and God too. You have failed to release yourself from the ignorance of the scriptures, which is ignorance of Christ. And people think that gay marriage is against “traditional values” when after Christ’s time there were Christian gay weddings and homosexual weddings and acts weren’t criminalized until way after. Surely Jesus would have said something against homosexuals when it was rampant during his time. But I believe a progay thing Jesus said was about the born eunuch. Anyway, I have two dad’s and I know the different personalities of men and women. I have had female and male witnesses in my life. I am Catholic. I am abstinent. I thank God that I have loving parents. I get good grades. I believe nobody is perfect, everyone has sinned. I believe in forgiveness. I believe in love. I believe in Jesus. And I apologize to those I have offended with my post, if I have offended anyone.
You are assuming facts not in evidence, such as gay Christian marriages. Not all gays are promiscuous, just as all blacks are not promiscuous. But marriage has become an anomaly among blacks and it has always been one among homosexuals. Marriage was designed to curb the tendency of males to hit and run, to curb the sexual competition to which we are prone, and to cause them to take care of their progeny. Monogamous, life-long marriage is a Christian ideal that is at the heart of the marriage law of European nations. But it was a develoment of the Jewish experience, where the law defined women’s rights even as it subordinated them to males. And Jesus’s prohibition of divorce was central to his conception of marriage.

Men and women were made equal, which is why Mary is so important in the Tradition, why Mary and Martha are bought to the fore in relation to his greatest healing miracle. At the same time, virginity and the single state assume a place of great importance in the tradition. Mary and Martha were especially bereft, since their male protector Lazrarus was dead, and while we may assume they are persons of means–like Mary of Magdela, that was a precarious sitiation in Jewish life. We ought to assume that women were literally followers of Jesus, along with the Apostles and other disciples, for the Church has always provided a refuge for single women and widows.

Nowe about homosexuality. Even gay apologists admit that Jews abhored homosexuality, which was one thing they hated about the Greek way of like, not only because they cherished children but because it was a constant aspect of pagan worship, going back to the time of Abraham. But even among the Greeks, homosexuals did not marry, and even pederasty was subject to cultural restraints. Modern, politically organized homsexuality was not possible, because it would have meant the death of society in an age of high mortality rates among children.
 
first off, an interpretation can’t be wrong, it’s an interpretation. Also, I know that it doesn’t mean there is no gender, we can all sleep with whoever, so why don’t you stop assuming, because you know what people who assume make themselves? Anyhows, what I meant is we are all God’s children,
Where in the world do you get your information? An interpretation can indeed by objectively wrong. Scriptural interpretation as to textual meaning (vs. scripture as prayer, or scripture as having some historical content) is based on certain principles, just as is true for other kinds of literature. I’m leaving faith outside of it for a minute. Just literary interpretation. Valid interpretative tools include anthropology, genre, and more. Do not fool yourself that because interpreters arrive at different conclusions about the same scriptural passages, that no systematic approach is involved, or that it’s all “personal” and subjective.

Shakespeare’s Macbeth has been interpreted with a similar variety of tools throughout the centuries, being similarly a classic of literature. However, there would be no validity to a claim that the play is a comedy. It is always interpreted through the lens of dramatic tragedy, which follows a certain formula.

There’s no credibility to claiming whatever the heck one wants to from a passage in scripture. Most passages, even seemingly ambiguous ones, have a narrow range of possible meanings, again even without the element of faith, doctrine, dogma, or other religious “prejudice.”
 
Where in the world do you get your information? An interpretation can indeed by objectively wrong. Scriptural interpretation as to textual meaning (vs. scripture as prayer, or scripture as having some historical content) is based on certain principles, just as is true for other kinds of literature. I’m leaving faith outside of it for a minute. Just literary interpretation. Valid interpretative tools include anthropology, genre, and more. Do not fool yourself that because interpreters arrive at different conclusions about the same scriptural passages, that no systematic approach is involved, or that it’s all “personal” and subjective.

Shakespeare’s Macbeth has been interpreted with a similar variety of tools throughout the centuries, being similarly a classic of literature. However, there would be no validity to a claim that the play is a comedy. It is always interpreted through the lens of dramatic tragedy, which follows a certain formula.

There’s no credibility to claiming whatever the heck one wants to from a passage in scripture. Most passages, even seemingly ambiguous ones, have a narrow range of possible meanings, again even without the element of faith, doctrine, dogma, or other religious “prejudice.”
Hence exogesis and eisogesis.
 
I never mentioned that everyone who thinks something is a sin is full of hate, and I never mentioned discrimination. Born eunuchs is…Matthew 19:12 “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

And maybe this website might make you think : homosexualeunuchsandthebible.com/
Do you know what a eunuch is? It’s someone born without genitals. It has nothing to do without them being homosexual. Look “eunuch” up in the dictionary…
 
Do you know what a eunuch is? It’s someone born without genitals. It has nothing to do without them being homosexual. Look “eunuch” up in the dictionary…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch#Non-castrated_.22eunuchs.22

A eunuch (IPA: /ˈjuː.nək/) is a castrated man, in particular one castrated early enough to have major hormonal consequences; the term usually refers to those castrated in order to perform a specific social function, as was common in many societies of the past. The earliest records for intentional castration to produce eunuchs are from the Sumerian city of Lagash in the twenty first century BC.[citation needed] Over the millennia since, they have performed a wide variety of functions in many different cultures such as courtiers or equivalent domestics, treble singers, religious specialists, government officials, military commanders, and guardians of women or harem servants. In some translations of ancient texts, individuals identified as eunuchs seem to include men who were impotent with women, and those who were celibate.

Thesis: Eunuchs are Gay Men
 
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