Gay Marriage and Freedom of Religion

[eichenb2]

Of course. They simply don’t love him. Well, they do for one brief moment at judgment when they have no choice but to love in the overwhelming presence of God, but then go to the other extreme and hate Him for eternity, not realizing their own actions sent them to Hell.

Grave matter, willful, with knowledge, and unrepentant will land them there.
May God protect us from falling into a heedless state!!!

 

[Florida_mom]

Adultery and fornication seem, to me, to be more analogous to homosexual sex. Adultery and fornication can be consentual. Does that mean the Church should condone?

I was answering from purely why is it not okay to be married and why it was included in the area of life or whatever the original post was about.

It had nothing to do with consent.

The church (as far as I can tell) does not rely soley on the litmus of consent in order to approve something.

 

[NoMoreGames]

My brother is getting committed in a church (non-Catholic–since they arent) in Key West this summer by a minister!

See my other post about your situation

On the note about marrying the one you love, legally…I often here L-O-V-E tossed around in conjunction with legalized marriage.

At least in my state–even under the new passed definition of marriage, that word does not appear anywhere.

Now I am not foolish to beleive that most folks dont marry for love, but that as an argument to why you legally should get to marry invalidates the argument because legalized love is not promised to anyone.

This is an interesting point. Just because the purpose is not explicitly stated in a law that means that it is not its reason?

And from a scientific standpoint, your union is not biologically correct.

it is not biologically correct because it cannot produce a child?

While it is great that you guys are abstaining, I am at a lost at how you can be very strong Catholics who are very much living counter to the church teachings. While you are abstaining, you are still in a relationship as a gay couple who intend to marry if you could.

You are not being silenced.

My belief in God, my love for Jesus, is not controlled by a relationship. I suppose goign to Catholic school for 9 years and hearing aoubt the two most important comandments, I beleived that is what Cathoocism is aobut. Love God. Love your neighbor. Celebrate the Eucharist. Those three things are hte centers of my live weather I believe that some of the petty bylaws are formed on soft foundations or not.

Silenced in reference to not being recognized by the government.

 

[Florida_mom]

You have to love your brother. However, homosexual sex is grave matter. If engaged willfully and with knowledge of its gravity, one will go to Hell (without repentance and the desire to stop). If you believe what the Church teaches, you will share this regularly with him. It would be extremely UNloving for you not to do so! As a new Catholic, I must say (with all due respect) that I find this attitude scandalous. Catholic teaching is clear! Please don’t try to complicate it.

I was asking another gay person of why I am considered wrong and was using the analogy of forcing a Hindu to eat a cow as a sign of acceptance.

My family is not Catholic and I am. They know where I stand.

Walking the walk is more important. Sometimes one can evangelize without words.

One of the commandemnts is Thou shalt not Judge. Catholic Teaching is clear on that. In asking my priest I asked where is the line in the sand between that commandment and the rest of the churches teachings.

 

[Florida_mom]

See my other post about your situation

This is an interesting point. Just because the purpose is not explicitly stated in a law that means that it is not its reason?

No, that one cannot argue that they are being treated unequally and then seek equality for something of which is not granted by law.

it is not biologically correct because it cannot produce a child?

Oh boy—lets see how I can explain myself and keep it safe for this site…

No–it is not biologically correct b/c you have to use an orifice whose biological function is not for that particular act. It is a–solution to allow you to have the act, but it is not the purpose. It’s purpose is to eliminate solid waste from the body.

And I will leave it at that.

My belief in God, my love for Jesus, is not controlled by a relationship. I suppose goign to Catholic school for 9 years and hearing aoubt the two most important comandments, I beleived that is what Cathoocism is aobut. Love God. Love your neighbor. Celebrate the Eucharist. Those three things are hte centers of my live weather I believe that some of the petty bylaws are formed on soft foundations or not.

2 questions–cause you sound like I know you from somewhere…do you live in New York and was your father in the military?

And on love God–we are back to a religious point but I assume this is in particular to the Church. They have a saying to love the sinner, but hate the sin. I find that most folks find this to be religion’s cop out.

I dont think God will change his love for you, but from a religious perspective, the union would be contrary to his laws as well.

Silenced in reference to not being recognized by the government.

I think the lines of communication are blurring–I was answering based on the church in this point b/c you had mentioned church.

 

[elvisman]

I was asking another gay person of why I am considered wrong and was using the analogy of forcing a Hindu to eat a cow as a sign of acceptance.

My family is not Catholic and I am. They know where I stand.

Walking the walk is more important. Sometimes one can evangelize without words.

One of the commandemnts is Thou shalt not Judge. Catholic Teaching is clear on that. In asking my priest I asked where is the line in the sand between that commandment and the rest of the churches teachings.

Actually, Jesus said in John 7:24 that we ARE to judge - but to judge rightly. We must judge according to what is right - which is why you have apparently been judged wrongly.
**A good corresponding Scripture verse is Matthew 7:16 - **"You will know them by their fruits."

 

[RyanL]

Would anyone consider the use of the phrase “no longer forbidden” to suggest that it was at one time?

Yes, friar, at one time cremation was not licit. This is true.

in the very line you quote, it says that the pope said it was a serious scandal to cremate except in those specific times. If the church didn’t consider it a sin, why even preach against it in the first place? Isn’t everything the church teaches is wrong considered a sin?

No, NMG, your understanding of Church teaching is…again…woefully uninformed. Read your Bible. Meat sacrificed to idols was forbidden, and then it wasn’t. Prudential, pastoral judgments are one thing – defining what is and is not sinful, ontologically, is quite another.

I admit defeat on the crab sodomy entails far more than just promiscuous gay sex.

Exactly. That’s part of why the modern interpretation of Biblical passages is a-historical.

And likiwise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another."

I think what I said explains that was well. Lust is always wrong, regardless of who it’s between. That statement can just as easily be explained by the fast that rampant teenage sex with any and everyone was (rightfully) considered wrong. I don’t understand how that makes any statement to marriage.

Wrong verse. I was asking about the one in front of it…which is why I referenced the one in front of it. Specifically, Romans 1:26b “Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.” Say what you will, but there’s no way to read “yeah…but only if it’s VERY LUSTFUL” into that sentence unless you have a serious agenda coupled with a lack of reading skills.

obviously the main purpose is reproduction, but that doesn’t mean only function.

Ok. First, when I asked you the question I gave the two other functions – pleasure and bonding. It’s ok to assume that if I say them that I know they are components in the act. You can give me that much credit.

Second, I’m glad we agree that the MAIN purpose of the particular biological system at issue is reproduction.

Why did God put so many nerve ending on the surfaces of the ares if it was not also meant to feel good? I don’t understand what this has to do with denying social gay marriage.

I know you don’t understand. That’s why I’m trying to help you see. Also, try not to confuse the reproductive system with the nervous system. There’s a perfectly good biological/evolutionary reason for the nerve clusters, i.e., encouraging us to do it, but that’s not the reproductive system, strictly speaking. Please try to keep focus.

Why is bulimia wrong? It destroys your body, makes you wither away and die.

What if you only do it once? Or maybe twice? Or perhaps 10 times or so? You’re not going to die from it, and chances are there will be no lasting effects. Is it still wrong? Why?

Ok maybe i’m just tired, but i really don’t see the connection, or why you think I would have suddenly changed my perception of bulimia?

We’ll see in your response.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[NoMoreGames]

Okay-- I think i love you!

haha—I wish it were that easy. THis is how it was presented to me. My DH has spoken with his partner and we are mostly on the same page.

However–it seems folks talk around me versus checking in with me to see how I feel.

Right now I have the invitation, and I have been ifnormed that I may be asked to be an attendant at which my mother has voluntary said I shouldnt have a probelm.

It is growing inot a problem that it will be better not to go at all.

And my sister–thinks I am a bigot.

Reading in one of your future posts that your family is not Catholic makes this a very difficult situation.

Perhaps it would be better not to attend and to show your love for your brother in a different way? (I’m not trying to give you advise, just kinda thinking out loud).

And let me make sure I understand. You’re brother and partner are ok with you not attending but it is your sister that wrongfully labels you a bigot and will not talk to you if you do not attend? If you would rather talk about this in a PM, feel free to send me one. You’re in my prayers

 

[RyanL]

One of the commandemnts is Thou shalt not Judge. Catholic Teaching is clear on that.

…erm…that’s not one of the Commandments, and, taken as a blanket statement, is just plain wrong. See John 7:24. We should most certainly judge acts. Sins are sins, and we ourselves are guilty of sin if we don’t point out where our brothers stumble. It’s hearts we are forbidden to judge. I think this is what you meant, but since I don’t know I figured it would be best to say something.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[NoMoreGames]

No, that one cannot argue that they are being treated unequally and then seek equality for something of which is not granted by law.

ok. in most states, a gay couple could not file taxes jointly. Is this proof of inequality? Yes yes, i know that is a purely financial reason but this is, after all, about legal marriage. Perhaps it would be surprising how many small things that are recognized by the government make life together for a married couple easier.

Oh boy—lets see how I can explain myself and keep it safe for this site…

No–it is not biologically correct b/c you have to use an orifice whose biological function is not for that particular act. It is a–solution to allow you to have the act, but it is not the purpose. It’s purpose is to eliminate solid waste from the body.

And I will leave it at that.

anal sex is neither universally practiced in the gay community nor exclusive to it.

2 questions–cause you sound like I know you from somewhere…do you live in New York and was your father in the military?

And on love God–we are back to a religious point but I assume this is in particular to the Church. They have a saying to love the sinner, but hate the sin. I find that most folks find this to be religion’s cop out.

I dont think God will change his love for you, but from a religious perspective, the union would be contrary to his laws as well.

Nope, not even close.

Love the sinner hate the sin is a very true statement, something you family probably needs to try to understand

Contrary to what man has proclaimed as Gods law, but i honestly believe otherwise. This doesn’t mean I love God any less.

I think the lines of communication are blurring–I was answering based on the church in this point b/c you had mentioned church.

I think they are. I originally started this to discuss the social reasons for denying gay marriage in terms of governmental law, but you know us Catholics, never can not bring religion into it I meant that the state is not allowing gay marriages because of a religious belief, in effect religion silencing even those who do not follow it.

 

[Florida_mom]

Actually, Jesus said in John 7:24 that we ARE to judge - but to judge rightly. We must judge according to what is right - which is why you have apparently been judged wrongly.
A good corresponding Scripture verse is Matthew 7:16 - "You will know them by their fruits."

Interesting quote, I would suggest you read the entire chapter to gain judgement.

Jesus was being misjudged by the Jews, he was telling them that they had to judge more on what they were physically seeing and listen to his messages.

Unless my brother is Jesus, you cannot take one line and say that is instructing us to do opposite of God’s law.

And on that last quote, once again look at the whole chapter–the beginning of which point blank tells us to NOT JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE:

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"(A)Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and (B)by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you (C)look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

4"(D)Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?

5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

6"(E)Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Prayer and the Golden Rule
7"(F)Ask, and (G)it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

9"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?

10"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?

11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, (H)how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

12"In everything, (I)therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for (J)this is the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13"(K)Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Beware of the (L)false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are (M)ravenous wolves.
16"You will (N)know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

And specifically on verse 16 of which you sited by itself–my brother is not forcing me to accept his ways.

He’s just asking me to not judge them.

The not speaking that was mentioned–would be if I didnt come at all.
We are still working on where the line will be drawn.

But there are some members who feel that this is inappropriate of me to do. They are the wolves whom I need to beware of. I cannot base my decisions based on what they think.

That is counter to the teachings of the church and would have me caving so that I appear to ENDORSE this event which is different than not judging the participants.

And lastly, I am not a biblical scholar, but I have lectored for the past decade or so. And often, scripture cannot be picked apart as one liners.

Often that is what non-Catholics use to invalidate our faith. We must look at everything in the Bible within context.

The quotes you quoted more support what I said and do not require me to preach the Catholic faith to my brother relentlessly to change his ways.

Prayer would go much farther–and as it stands–it complicates our faith to use one liners to justify being righteous to our non-catholic family and peers.

That bit me in the butt when I pulled that stunt early on in my conversion. It is judgemental to do that.

 

[Florida_mom]

ok. in most states, a gay couple could not file taxes jointly. Is this proof of inequality? Yes yes, i know that is a purely financial reason but this is, after all, about legal marriage. Perhaps it would be surprising how many small things that are recognized by the government make life together for a married couple easier.

anal sex is neither universally practiced in the gay community nor exclusive to it.
Nope, not even close.

Love the sinner hate the sin is a very true statement, something you family probably needs to try to understand

Contrary to what man has proclaimed as Gods law, but i honestly believe otherwise. This doesn’t mean I love God any less.

I think they are. I originally started this to discuss the social reasons for denying gay marriage in terms of governmental law, but you know us Catholics, never can not bring religion into it I meant that the state is not allowing gay marriages because of a religious belief, in effect religion silencing even those who do not follow it.

Okay–way too much sex talk–so leaving it at that.

Filing taxes jointly–you got me there. But there is a marriage penalty. Taxes go up.

A Nice healthy discussion.

thank you so much for the provided information.

 

[Florida_mom]

…erm…that’s not one of the Commandments, and, taken as a blanket statement, is just plain wrong. See John 7:24. We should most certainly judge acts. Sins are sins, and we ourselves are guilty of sin if we don’t point out where our brothers stumble. It’s hearts we are forbidden to judge. I think this is what you meant, but since I don’t know I figured it would be best to say something.

God Bless,
RyanL

You are correct ,my apologies. But I do believe that we are commanded by God to not judge others.

I also refer you to Matthew 7.

I judge my brothers act, in fact I have a big ol’ disapproving opinion of it.

I refuse to judge him the person and that is of which I speak. God and Jesus do not want me to judge HIM. Much like Jesus did not want the Jews to not judge him based on what he was doing–but to look rightly at the act that he was doing.

I do not look rightly or approvingly at what my brother is doing,but I will treat him as I wish to be treated–the Golden rule mentioned in Chapter 7 of Matthew.

I dont wish to be excommunicted and judged for being Catholic even though my family is sometimes vocal about it (and to that I do respond with what I know on the Catholic faith. I am looking to get more solid Catholic answers so that I can better articulate in hopes to…change some minds.).

Sometimes, I do not articulate my thoughts well as my hands don’t travel as quicly as my thoughts.

 

[RyanL]

… often, scripture cannot be picked apart as one liners.

Often that is what non-Catholics use to invalidate our faith. We must look at everything in the Bible within context.

You’re right. Would you please provide the context for the following?

2 Timothy 3:16-17: “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, **correcting **and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

2 Timothy 4:2 : “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, **rebuke **and encourage- with great patience and careful instruction.” Notice that in this verse we are told to rebuke and encourage; so we should not correct if we do not encourage.

Titus 2:15: “These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and **rebuke **with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.”

Ephesians 5:11: “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”

1 Corinthians 2:15-16: “The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

Or maybe this Church teaching…

From the catechism:

**1861 **Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Judge acts. Do not judge hearts.

The quotes you quoted more support what I said and do not require me to preach the Catholic faith to my brother relentlessly to change his ways.

Prayer would go much farther

I entirely agree.

–and as it stands–it complicates our faith to use one liners to justify being righteous to our non-catholic family and peers.

That’s a pastoral decision. Sometimes it’s best, sometimes it’s not.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

FL Mom,

Looks like we’re saying the same thing. :thumbsup:

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[NoMoreGames]

Okay–way too much sex talk–so leaving it at that.

sorry, just trying to say that all gays go against biology, nor do all straights exclusively follow it. Excuse my lack of discretion.

Filing taxes jointly–you got me there. But there is a marriage penalty. Taxes go up.

in the civil rights movement had a quote, “with equality comes disrespect.” Higher taxes are a small price to pay for equality, after all, freedom doesn’t come free (especially in a recession)

A Nice healthy discussion.

thank you so much for the provided information.

Completely agree It’s nice to not be personally attacked over the subject and my thoughts on it

 

[RyanL]

Okay–way too much sex talk–so leaving it at that.

You’re right about your initial statement. The various parts of our bodies have particular functions. Objectively, it would make as much sense, biologically speaking, to stick it in an ear.

Filing taxes jointly–you got me there. But there is a marriage penalty. Taxes go up.

Actually, the so-called “marriage penalty” only happens if both spouses earn an income. It’s most noticeable when both spouses earn the same amount. It’s pretty much unavoidable in any conceivable progressive tax structure that recognizes joint filing.

However…

If only one earns an income, there’s a huge tax break when the two get married. A benefit of this structure is that it provides a favorable monetary incentive allowing one spouse to stay home all the time and not work. Want to guess why that’s been very acceptable from the government’s standpoint, historically?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Florida_mom]

Reading in one of your future posts that your family is not Catholic makes this a very difficult situation.

Perhaps it would be better not to attend and to show your love for your brother in a different way? (I’m not trying to give you advise, just kinda thinking out loud).

And let me make sure I understand. You’re brother and partner are ok with you not attending but it is your sister that wrongfully labels you a bigot and will not talk to you if you do not attend? If you would rather talk about this in a PM, feel free to send me one. You’re in my prayers

And my sister is Catholic!!! Hahahaha! Thats the irony. I often forget as she is very much not practicing except when taking communion and my childrens baptisms.

My brother would be very defeated if I did not attend AT ALL in that he would feel it is a judgement on him. His partner is much more understanding–but hes wayyy more stable.

But in any case–thank you so much for the thoughts!

 

[RyanL]

sorry, just trying to say that all gays go against biology, nor do all straights exclusively follow it.

In one relationship, there is no “biologically correct” way of coupling.

In the other relationship, there is a “biologically correct” way of coupling, though sometimes folks in these relationships *also *engage in other activities.

How does that refute the initial position?

in the civil rights movement had a quote, “with equality comes disrespect.” Higher taxes are a small price to pay for equality, after all, freedom doesn’t come free (especially in a recession)

So this is about equality now? You’re not free to marry someone of the opposite sex? Am I, a heterosexual, allowed to marry someone of the same sex? How is that not equal? Is it because you can’t marry whoever you want? I couldn’t marry a sister, even though we’d be of opposite sexes – so I can’t marry whoever I please, either.

What’s the inequality again?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[elvisman]

Interesting quote, I would suggest you read the entire chapter to gain judgement.

Jesus was being misjudged by the Jews, he was telling them that they had to judge more on what they were physically seeing and listen to his messages.

Unless my brother is Jesus, you cannot take one line and say that is instructing us to do opposite of God’s law.

And on that last quote, once again look at the whole chapter–the beginning of which point blank tells us to NOT JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE:

And specifically on verse 16 of which you sited by itself–my brother is not forcing me to accept his ways.

He’s just asking me to not judge them.

The not speaking that was mentioned–would be if I didnt come at all.
We are still working on where the line will be drawn.

But there are some members who feel that this is inappropriate of me to do. They are the wolves whom I need to beware of. I cannot base my decisions based on what they think.

That is counter to the teachings of the church and would have me caving so that I appear to ENDORSE this event which is different than not judging the participants.

And lastly, I am not a biblical scholar, but I have lectored for the past decade or so. And often, scripture cannot be picked apart as one liners.

Often that is what non-Catholics use to invalidate our faith. We must look at everything in the Bible within context.

The quotes you quoted more support what I said and do not require me to preach the Catholic faith to my brother relentlessly to change his ways.

Prayer would go much farther–and as it stands–it complicates our faith to use one liners to justify being righteous to our non-catholic family and peers.

That bit me in the butt when I pulled that stunt early on in my conversion. It is judgemental to do that.

**I was providing you with these verses to support you - not to attack you.

As for Matt. 7 - in this chapter, Jesus isn’t condemning judging others. He is saying they we shouldn’t judge wrongly because we’ll be judged by the same measuring stick by which we judge. That’s why he uses the hyperbole about the splinter and the beam.

That’s why he says in John 7:24 that we are to judge rightly. If we can differentiate, we are supposed to judge. **
What we are not to do is judge somebody’s heart. Only God sees what’s in the heart.