Gay Marriage and Freedom of Religion

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Spankyg,
Good morning. I wonder if you would be so kind as to list the biblical references that establish that marriage is only for one male and one female. Thank you.:blessyou:
**1 Corinthians 6:9

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders**

The Bible speaks of a marriage between a woman and a man from the beginning to the end. Christ is seen as our Bridegroom and we are considered to be His wives. This is a spiritual connotation, not a literal view obviously. God made Adam and Eve. He never made 2 men or 2 women, otherwise how would we populate? Not only that, but it mentions that deacons should be the husband of 1 wife (1 Tim 3:12) and in various other places it states that He created a man and a woman for a union. (The 2 become one flesh.) (Matthew 19:5/Matthew 19:8) Matthew 19:4-6
 
DoubtingDaniel:

Arguing about what causes homosexuality is not going to change the minds of the committed Catholics here. The reason is that Catholic teaching on homosexuality and gay marriage doesn’t care where it comes from. It could be genetic. It could be purely learned. It could be a mix of genetic and environmental factors Regardless, the teachings of the Church on this issue do not change. So you might want to lay off a bit on what you’ve started in the last couple of posts.

Also consider that this thread was originally about gay marriage and freedom or religion. That is a much more interesting topic in my opinion. It makes for a more lively debate. Besides, although everyone can speculate about what causes homosexuality as much as they want, we don’t really know what does yet. There are many conflicting hypotheses. I do not think homosexuality is something one chooses, nor do I think it is something purely learned. I think we have a long way to go in figuring out where homosexuality comes from, and I don’t think we will ever be able to bring it down to one cause in the near future.

So yeah, the advice is: Arguing with Catholics about gay marriage and using the fact that it has a biological basis is going to get your nowhere. Zip. Gays are called to be chaste. Period. They can’t get married to a member of the same sex. Period. It doesn’t matter what causes the homosexuality. Period.
 
PureGrace, you demonstrate some wisdom! Faithful Catholics will not give in matters of obedience. The Lord has been very consistent and very clear about some issues; and this topic is one of them.
 
But the Lord has not been very specific (By Lord, I mean Jesus). What does he say is the sin of Sodom, not homosexuality but rather the failure to observe the laws of hospitality. Remeber when he curses Chorozain (pardon my spelling). It is easy to be a heterosexual and say that all homosexuals should remain celibate. No, the teaching of the Church will not change anytime soon if ever. But when all heterosexuals are called to marriage, then I can believe all homosexuals are called to celibacy. But that is not the case is it. Some are but surely all are not. But heterosexuals are quick to lay a burden on homosexuals that most would not accept for themselves. And to quote scripture without understanding the context in which it is written is to use the Bible as a weapon and not as a guide for teaching the love of God. There was no understanding of the nature of homosexuality. it was believed that all people were born heterosexuals and therefore homosexual behavior was ‘disordered’. But nature shows us that there is homosexuality in the natural world of animals. It is no more natural for a homosexual to function heterosexually than it is for a heterosexual to function homosexually, but that is what choice you give a homosexual who knows he is not called to celibacy and so marries unhappily. The church does not I believe even regard such a marriage as sacramental. Compassion is what is needed and not condemnation which it essentially is when you say all homosexuals should be celibate.
 
Gay marriage is not permitted by the church because it can’t lead to procreation. The point of marriage is to have children, if God willing of course.
 
To be absolutely correct, the reason is because a homosexual act is not open to life.
 
:amen:

If only everyone would just agree on things! We could/would be at peace at last!
 
But the Lord has not been very specific (By Lord, I mean Jesus). What does he say is the sin of Sodom, not homosexuality but rather the failure to observe the laws of hospitality. Remeber when he curses Chorozain (pardon my spelling). It is easy to be a heterosexual and say that all homosexuals should remain celibate. No, the teaching of the Church will not change anytime soon if ever. But when all heterosexuals are called to marriage, then I can believe all homosexuals are called to celibacy. But that is not the case is it. Some are but surely all are not. But heterosexuals are quick to lay a burden on homosexuals that most would not accept for themselves. And to quote scripture without understanding the context in which it is written is to use the Bible as a weapon and not as a guide for teaching the love of God. There was no understanding of the nature of homosexuality. it was believed that all people were born heterosexuals and therefore homosexual behavior was ‘disordered’. But nature shows us that there is homosexuality in the natural world of animals. It is no more natural for a homosexual to function heterosexually than it is for a heterosexual to function homosexually, but that is what choice you give a homosexual who knows he is not called to celibacy and so marries unhappily. The church does not I believe even regard such a marriage as sacramental. Compassion is what is needed and not condemnation which it essentially is when you say all homosexuals should be celibate.
It is God himself who is quoted in the Bible saying you shall not lay with a man as a man does with a woman; it is an abomination. So how do you marginalize that in your version of biblical exegisis?
 
First of all I don’t intend to ‘maginalize’ scripture but your view of scripture is apparently fundamentalist and I do not accept that interpretation as it is flawed. Scripture is not exact quotations by God. It is filtered through the the cultural and personal world view of the human author. Do you cover your hair when you go to church? Paul says you should and by your interpretaion he is quoting God. Do you observe all the prohibitions of Leviticus? Do wear clothing of mixed fiber? Do you eat pork or shell fish? Based on your interpretaion of scripture you are in violation of God’s law as quoted by the human writer of Leviticus. I see that you are Catholic but the Catholic Chruch does not hold to the literal sense of the Bible in all instances (e.g.women ar no longer required to cover their heads in church.)
 
alan1941. First, your assumption that there have been misstranslations of the bible is simply off base. You don’t point to any example and claim a specific misstranslation. You only declare what the bible say is presumtively incorrect.Overall, biblical experts have determined that the texts we have today at more than 99% accurate.
(See Habermas, “Recent Perspectives on the Reliability of the Gospels”at garyhabermas.com/articles/crj_recentperspectives/crj_recentperspectives.htm citing John Wenham, Christ and the Bible (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1984), 186-187.)
The homosexual conduct prohibition is repeated quite a few times in the OT and the new. Jesus himself affirmed “the law.” There has been more scrutinization of the bible than any other text, I dare say, in human history. Saying the texts are probably messed up so the homosexual life style is probably oK is like wishful thinking. It’s unfounded. So, your premise is erroneous. Citing these many verses isn’t “interpretation” at all.

Regarding old rules, many were superceded. Circumcision was an absolute mandate for the ancient Jews but after Christ gave Peter the authority as the Rock to continue his church with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, the early chruch decided circumcision was unnecessary for Gentiles. The Levitical dietary prohibitions Christ declared as not pertaining to morality. (Acts 10:13-17) Christ specifically stated marriage was not to be put asunder, despite Moses allowed divorce). Christ never addressed homosexual conduct specifically but he affirmed the law. There is nothing in scripture which could even tend to view homosexual conduct as OK.

see also the Catholic Catechism, sections 2357-2359. These are harsh facts, indeed. Those who point to these responses to the homosexual movement are interpreted as hateful. It’s not hateful. It’s just the way it is and the community doesn’t like it so they shout in response. The homosexual movement is in extreme denial, an outgrowth of the feel good 60’s I think. It is an incredible burden to “be” homosexual and come to terms with these facts. I would also point you to read the stories of formerly active homosexuals and how they talk about their conversions. There was a fascinating one on the “Journey Home” TV program some time ago. They’re all available online too. I coudn’t find it but there are many out there. It took years for the one man to see that the homosexual life style is emotionally and spiritually empty.

It is a complex thing to discuss. It’s a moral issue, a religious issue (Christianity and natural law), a legal issue, an historical issue. The movement response to any claim that homosexual conduct is immoral is immediate dismissal. This is strikingly similar to how militant the pro-choice people were and some still are. You couldn’t even have a discussion at all which included the possibility that abortion should be made illegal. Now many years later, with advanced science and technology, many see that upon the joining of male and female cells there is a human life begun with human DNA. You don’t hear the argument any more that it’s just a lump of tissue. That was a main argument 30 years ago. There is an ackowledgment of life, although, they still claim a right to abort. The homosexuality issue, is similar. I think there will be gay marriage, lots of gay adoption and I won’t live long enough to see the beginning of the roll back of it all in about 30-50 years. If the world is still here, I think there will be a return to nuclear families. This is not to diss gay people. Sorry, for carrying on so long. Points needed to be made.
 
How many times am I going to have to say this. Homosexuality is an inherited trait! It is not some choice. Its not some psychological disorder. Its simply a gene that causes you to be sexually attracted towards the same sex.
Pedophilia is an inherited trait. It’s not some psychological disorder. It’s simply a gene that causes one to be attracted towards pre-pubescent children.

Discuss.
 
To start of, I’m not being sarcastic. That being said, are those who are against gay marriage also against the freedom of religion? I don’t like how the emails this site sends out places it in the same category as things like abortion, and euthanasia. Those two violate human life, which is universal to all humans. Gay marriage, on the other hand, does not take away life nor limit the rights of others. I’m curious as to why people believe that gay marriage should not be allowed in the country when it falls more so under the category of freedom of religion. 🤷
Freedom of religion is a two-way street. If you want to argue that freedom of religion requires acceptance of gay marriage, then, at the same time, your belief in freedom of religion requires acceptance of those religions that are working hard to eliminate gay marriage. Therefore, you should not be here trying to convince us to abandon our views, if you truly believe in freedom of religion.

That said, I’m still trying to find evidence that there is freedom of religion in this country. We’ve enjoyed nothing more than freedom from persecution. That’s changing, however. The state is turning the screws on the private sector and moving towards elimination of healthcare conscience clauses and financial punishment of those who do not fall in line…
 
But heterosexuals are quick to lay a burden on homosexuals that most would not accept for themselves. And to quote scripture without understanding the context in which it is written is to use the Bible as a weapon and not as a guide for teaching the love of God. There was no understanding of the nature of homosexuality. it was believed that all people were born heterosexuals and therefore homosexual behavior was ‘disordered’. . Compassion is what is needed and not condemnation which it essentially is when you say all homosexuals should be celibate.
Alan, The Catholic Church is the one place you will get Sacred Scripture within its proper context. There is enormous compassion within the Church for those with SSA. However, as the act of homosexual intimacy is (according to Scripture) morally unacceptable, it is not heterosexuals who place this burden but God Himself. The fact that we have learned more about the human genome (remember that the expression of that genome is very complex and the jury is still out on the combination of nature vs nurture with respect to SSA) does not change the truth of the inspired word of God. There is no error in scripture. The fulfillment of the new covenant did change some things (as Alicia pointed out) however,the changes were to ceremonial law. There has been no change in moral requirements. Murder is still forbidden, as is stealing, adultery, etc. and…homosexual sex. The sinful nature of homosexual sexual acts is reinforced in the new testament. Further, please recognize that there are many heterosexual christians who are called to celibacy but would rather not be. My personal example is in my conversion, through study, to the Catholic Church. My protestant church had no issue with my remarriage. However, in following Christ’s call; if my annullment isn’t approved, my husband of 15 years and I will need to live chastely for the rest of our lives. Neither of us would choose that. It’s simply obedience; a burden God gives us for our good.

Please read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Romans 1:18-27 for clear new testament statement.

Finally, accusations of lack of compassion, intolerance and homophobia are a very common method of ending rational conversation. I cared for most of the county’s LGBT population before moving to my new position. My faith was never a secret, but my patients made it clear that they chose my clinic because of my compassion and caring. One need not agree with the lifestyle to be caring and compassionate.
 
First of all I don’t intend to ‘maginalize’ scripture but your view of scripture is apparently fundamentalist and I do not accept that interpretation as it is flawed. Scripture is not exact quotations by God. It is filtered through the the cultural and personal world view of the human author. Do you cover your hair when you go to church? Paul says you should and by your interpretaion he is quoting God. Do you observe all the prohibitions of Leviticus? Do wear clothing of mixed fiber? Do you eat pork or shell fish? Based on your interpretaion of scripture you are in violation of God’s law as quoted by the human writer of Leviticus. I see that you are Catholic but the Catholic Chruch does not hold to the literal sense of the Bible in all instances (e.g.women ar no longer required to cover their heads in church.)
You need to read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” so that you understand why we believe what we do.
 
You need to read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” so that you understand why we believe what we do.
spankyg, alan is a Catholic. I’m sure he’s acquainted with the CCC.

That doesn’t mean I agree with his position on this topic, only a correction on the background.

The difference of opinion here is I believe based on his assumption that SSA = identity = determinant behavior (which is the secular argument also), whereas the Church believes that SSA may or may not be a permanent condition and that even if/when it is, both acting on it and institutionalizing any such partnership is ‘disordered.’
 
But the Lord has not been very specific (By Lord, I mean Jesus). What does he say is the sin of Sodom, not homosexuality but rather the failure to observe the laws of hospitality.

***4 But before they went to bed, the men ***of the city beset the house both young and old, all the people together. 5 And they called Lot, and said to him: Where are the men that came in to thee at night? bring them out hither that we may know them:

It is indeed very inhospitable to welcome strangers to satisfy lustfull needs. The men of the city are commiting this sin the only women mentioned are lots daughters who have husbands yet Lot say’s this about them:

8 I have two daughters who as yet have not known man: I will bring them out to you, and abuse you them as it shall please you, so that you do no evil to these men,

Lot was offering a means to satisfy their lust for flesh knowing they would refuse but hoping that it would show them the gravity of their sin and turn some away in shame.
And to quote scripture without understanding the context in which it is written is to use the Bible as a weapon and not as a guide for teaching the love of God. There was no understanding of the nature of homosexuality.
 
spankyg, alan is a Catholic. I’m sure he’s acquainted with the CCC.

That doesn’t mean I agree with his position on this topic, only a correction on the background.

The difference of opinion here is I believe based on his assumption that SSA = identity = determinant behavior (which is the secular argument also), whereas the Church believes that SSA may or may not be a permanent condition and that even if/when it is, both acting on it and institutionalizing any such partnership is ‘disordered.’
From what he is saying, he needs to become more “involved” within the faith. All i can gather from what he’s said is that he has doubts and blatant disregard for what is painfully obvious. Homosexuality is wrong. It is not biblically right, nor is it scientifically right. If a relationship cannot produce life, then how on this earth can it be right?

And, with great help from the man upstairs, i have found a verse which puts the final nail in the coffin.

Romans 1:26-27:

** 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.**
 
To start of, I’m not being sarcastic. That being said, are those who are against gay marriage also against the freedom of religion? I don’t like how the emails this site sends out places it in the same category as things like abortion, and euthanasia. Those two violate human life, which is universal to all humans. Gay marriage, on the other hand, does not take away life nor limit the rights of others. I’m curious as to why people believe that gay marriage should not be allowed in the country when it falls more so under the category of freedom of religion. 🤷
homosexual sexual actions do not promote life. A form of contraception? It resolves into a life issue as does abortion, euthanasia and other life issues. Sexual relations were meant by God, according to the Bible, to help humanity procreate. This is a basis for the Church to say artificial contraception is not acceptable to the will of God. Homosexual sexual activity falls under the Natural Law. Homosexuality is not a natural state of physical or spiritual being. Acted upon, it is also a subversion of what is naturally the tendencies of humans in the area of sexuality.
 
**Romans 1:26-27:

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. **
 
Pedophilia is an inherited trait. It’s not some psychological disorder. It’s simply a gene that causes one to be attracted towards pre-pubescent children.

Discuss.
There is no conclusive scientific proof that homosexuality or pedephelia is genetic. It wouldn’t matter if there were evidence. Homosexual acts and pedophelia are morally wrong. And pedephelia is still recognized as a psychological diagnosis. The fact that you even raised this shows how the distortion creeps into society. Particularly in the legal analysis, once gay marriage is legalized by virture of the 14th Amendment’s equal protection clause it knocks down the hurdle of moral objection to pedephelia, polygamy, necrophelia, beastiality, etc. I went online to check if pedophelia were still in the DMS-IV (the psyciatric diagnostic manual). I found it was but also saw a plethora of web sites dedicated to the so-called reconsideration of whether pedophelia should still be considered as a disorder. I don’t get surprised much any more but that was a shocker. It is literally madness that society should even be discussing that question. It is just this sort of twisted lust that led to the horror of the sex scandal among priests. Even the holocaust started out with some simply annoying propoganda.
 
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