Gay Marriage and the Social Issues Surrounding It

[Patavium]

Bradski,

Tell me something if homosexuals were born this way, Why is it possible for some of them to become heterosexuals later on?. Do blacks become white?

 

[Bradski]

You’ve contradicted yourself, CC. First you say that heterosexuality is a choice:

You are heterosexual. This may be behavior. You have a choice about your behavior.

Then you say it’s not. That we have no choice:

Concerning being born heterosexual. All people are born heterosexual in my opinion…

But then we do have a choice if we want to change it:

…and I believe deviance is a choice.

Maybe you need to work out which you believe and confirm it one way or the other. If sexuality is not a choice, then gay people are born that way. If it is a choice, then you must have chosen yours.

 

[PRmerger]

Do homosexuals have a stronger claim to being “born this way” in comparison to let’s say pedophiles?

That is an interesting question, Patavium.

I think that the majority of folks, even who have no college degree but only a great deal of common sense (such as my mother), would rightfully conclude that pedophilia is created by some sort of deviant experience in the pedophile’s life. Most likely something that happened prior to puberty.

Same with homosexuality. My guess.

 

[stewstew03]

What issues am I no longer pondering Stew

Sarah x

I have no idea - I am just assuming that you are not open-minded to ideas such as pedophilia, abortion (assuming you are pro-life), etc. Being closed-minded isn’t always a bad thing once someone is convinced of the veracity of certain principles (like the value of life, what it means to ‘love’ a child or a spouse, etc…).

 

[Bradski]

Are you saying that everyone is born in this world with their sexual orientation?

Well, I was and I assume that you were as well. The gay people I know were as well.

Thus, pedophiles have a strong claim like homosexuals, too?

A claim to what? That they were born that way? Just as you and I and gay women were born to be sexually attracted to women who had reached sexual maturity, then there are men who are born who are sexually attracted to prepubescent girls. I don’t think people make an active choice to be sexually attracted to children.

But, and this is stating the bleedin’ obvious, sex between mature adults of whatever orientation is not illegal, whereas sex with a minor is.

The problem is that some Pedophiles claim they were born this way. So what do we do? Homosexuals claim they were born this way too?

As are heterosexuals. This is an extremely clumsy point you are trying to make notwithstanding that comparing homosexuality with paedophilia is not showing you in a good light.

Tell me something if homosexuals were born this way, Why is it possible for some of them to become heterosexuals later on?

To ‘become’ heterosexual? Do you mean to act in a heterosexual manner or to actually and physically change their sexual preferences?

 

[atheistgirl]

I have no idea - I am just assuming that you are not open-minded to ideas such as pedophilia, abortion (assuming you are pro-life), etc.

Ok, I’m with you - I was getting confused with another thread.

Being closed-minded isn’t always a bad thing once someone is convinced of the veracity of certain principles (like the value of life, what it means to ‘love’ a child or a spouse, etc…).

Certainly, but when someone, with a scientific background, ‘‘professes’’ and ‘‘declares’’ homosexuality is a choice, and ‘‘nothing will change my mind’’ that is very closed minded indeed, considering even the Catholic Church is open to review of scholarly study on the genesis of homosexuality, and there is much scientific study to be done.

I am not closed minded in that sense.

Sarah x

 

[Patavium]

To ‘become’ heterosexual? Do you mean to act in a heterosexual manner or to actually and physically change their sexual preferences?

I was not clear . An example may help: a lesbian deciding to marry a man, and abandon her previous sexual lifestyle.

 

[atheistgirl]

I was not clear . An example may help: a lesbian deciding to marry a man, and abandon her previous sexual lifestyle.

Wouldn’t she have to be bisexual, not a lesbian, to do this?

I could no more chose to have sex with a woman than I could chose to become a cat.

Meow!

Sarah x

 

[Patavium]

Wouldn’t she have to be bisexual, not a lesbian, to do this?

I could no more chose to have sex with a woman than I could chose to become a cat.

Meow!

Sarah x

Exactly, so Blacks couldn’t choose to be white, but we observe examples of homosexuals choosing the heterosexual lifestyle. Thus, why should we approve rights based on behavior?

 

[atheistgirl]

Exactly, so Blacks couldn’t choose to be white, but we observe examples of homosexuals choosing the heterosexual lifestyle. Thus, why should we approve rights based on behavior?

But you just agreed they’re bisexual.

They’re not chosing a heterosexual lifestyle over a homosexual lifestyle, they’re comfortable in both.

The lesbians and homosexual men I know are not bisexual.

They couldn’t chose to have a heterosexual sexual relationship if their life depended on them doing so. They just couldn’t.

Sarah x

 

[Acrossthedesert]

So, you are sexually attracted to men, and you are aware of this fact, but you ‘‘chose’’ not to act on those sexual inclinations?

Interesting.

Sarah x

Sarah, everyone at one time or another has desires contrary to God’s will. Some fall, some stand. When we fall we go to Reconciliation and then again recieve the Holy Eucharist in Communion. We try to avoid the near occasion of sin. It is an imperfect contrition to be sorry for offending God without actually feeling remorse for the act itslef, and this is sufficient for absolution.

Do you think jeffrey dahmer was born with his tendencies? Regardless he should have fought those desires prior to sin engulfing him and so many innocent lives.

 

[Bradski]

I was not clear . An example may help: a lesbian deciding to marry a man, and abandon her previous sexual lifestyle.

You said lesbian as opposed to Sarah’s suggestion that she could be bisexual. So if she’s born with a sexual preference for women, then she cannot choose to simply ‘switch that off’.

So she hasn’t become heterosexual. She is a lesbian who has married a man. She may have decided to do that for any number of reasons. Maybe it could be stigma in her social group in regard to being gay or perhaps she was a Catholic and decided to follow the church’s teachings on this.

You can’t convert someone from being gay to being straight any more than you could be converted to being gay.

 

[Acrossthedesert]

Across,

I am saved, being saved, hope to be saved…to be saved is Protestant.

Let’s get on the same page…in your salvation process you sin and when you sin…the gospel is that you are a child of God, participating in the family of God, by grace, through Faith working in Love, so that you paricipate in the divine Sonship by virtue of the sacrifice of the one Son…We are called children of God and so we are…

This is in contrast to the Protestant Gospel of some that declare

We are declared righteous, not truly righteous, but seen as righteous by the glory of the Son…

Ok…

Thanks CopticChristian… using the term saved can have a loaded meaning. We are being saved by God’s Grace is certainly more accurate.

As Catholics, we’re vaguely familiar with “saved” language. We don’t usually ask someone, “Are you saved?” and when someone asks us this question, we often stutter and fumble for an answer. So how should we answer: “Are you saved?” Constantly. We are constantly being saved by the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why? Because salvation is dynamic, ongoing. It’s a past, present, and future reality. Let me explain.

Salvation is a past reality: We have been saved by the death of Jesus Christ. While we were still sinners, Jesus’ death canceled the bond that stood against us (Col. 2:14). In other words, the guilt of original sin has been wiped away. God pardoned our sins. But being pardoned isn’t the same as being holy. Being pardoned gives us back our freedom to choose the road to holiness, to walk the narrow path. Right now, today, we are being saved. Grace is wooing us down the narrow path. We are becoming holy. Salvation is an ongoing event.

 

[Patavium]

You said lesbian as opposed to Sarah’s suggestion that she could be bisexual. So if she’s born with a sexual preference for women, then she cannot choose to simply ‘switch that off’.

So she hasn’t become heterosexual. She is a lesbian who has married a man. She may have decided to do that for any number of reasons. Maybe it could be stigma in her social group in regard to being gay or perhaps she was a Catholic and decided to follow the church’s teachings on this.

You can’t convert someone from being gay to being straight any more than you could be converted to being gay.

I see, so pedophiles cannot be converted as well just as I cannot be converted. We must accept pedophiles too, they have no choice.

 

[Bradski]

When we fall we go to Reconciliation and then again recieve the Holy Eucharist in Communion. We try to avoid the near occasion of sin. It is an imperfect contrition to be sorry for offending God without actually feeling remorse for the act itslef, and this is sufficient for absolution.

Across, you have to believe it’s a sin before you feel remorse.

 

[Bradski]

I see, so pedophiles cannot be converted as well just as I cannot be converted. We must accept pedophiles too, they have no choice.

Your argument isn’t getting any less clumsy is it? But yes, we must accept that paedophiles cannot be converted in the sense that you mean.

As paedophilia is rightly regarded as abhorrent (as opposed to just plain ol’ sex between consenting adults), then apart from jailing men (rarely women) who prey on children, they can be physically prevented from acting on their impulses by means such as chemical castration.

We could always try strapping them into a chair, forcing them to watch scenes of young children at play and then giving them electric shocks, but that might come under ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ (I believe they have to agree to chemical castration). Maybe you’ve seen ‘Clockwork Orange’, in which case you’d know how it works.

Are you going to take this analogy any further?

 

[stewstew03]

But you just agreed they’re bisexual.

They’re not chosing a heterosexual lifestyle over a homosexual lifestyle, they’re comfortable in both.

The lesbians and homosexual men I know are not bisexual.

They couldn’t chose to have a heterosexual sexual relationship if their life depended on them doing so. They just couldn’t.

Sarah x

What do you make of men/women who enter prison and “choose” a homosexual lifestyle. I know a woman, for example, married with kids (was married with kids). Started serving a 20-year sentence and suddenly she was in several relationships with women – even referred to them (occasionally) as wives. I hear the same thing can happen with men.

 

[PRmerger]

I have no idea - I am just assuming that you are not open-minded to ideas such as pedophilia, abortion (assuming you are pro-life), etc. Being closed-minded isn’t always a bad thing once someone is convinced of the veracity of certain principles (like the value of life, what it means to ‘love’ a child or a spouse, etc…).

Indeed. Paraphrasing GK Chesterton: the purpose of an open-mind is to close it on something solid.

Having an open mind is similar to having an open mouth. Unless you close it on something you look like a fool.
http://images.buddytv.com/articles/RHONYS4reunion1.jpg

 

[Patavium]

Your argument isn’t getting any less clumsy is it? But yes, we must accept that paedophiles cannot be converted in the sense that you mean.

As paedophilia is rightly regarded as abhorrent (as opposed to just plain ol’ sex between consenting adults), then apart from jailing men (rarely women) who prey on children, they can be physically prevented from acting on their impulses by means such as chemical castration.

We could always try strapping them into a chair, forcing them to watch scenes of young children at play and then giving them electric shocks, but that might come under ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ (I believe they have to agree to chemical castration). Maybe you’ve seen ‘Clockwork Orange’, in which case you’d know how it works.

Are you going to take this analogy any further?

No, the point is made. We cannot give rights based on behavior. It is different than gender, and race. Behavior can change.

 

[PRmerger]

As paedophilia is rightly regarded as abhorrent (as opposed to just plain ol’ sex between consenting adults),

I always find this criterion of “consenting adults” to be a curious one.

You don’t really believe that’s all that’s required for sex to not be “abhorrent”, do you, Bradski?

Surely you believe there must be some other things that must be met for sex to be “moral”?

Like your claim that you are a moral relativist (which, it turns out, you are not, at least as it applies to Free Speech for all), I am highly skeptical that you truly believe that it’s just “2 consenting adults” that’s required.