Gay Marriage in America

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RosaryFan said:
First, I want to address Catholicguy100’s assertion that our Country’s religious freedom isn’t in jeopardy. When schools will soon be forced to teach children that homosexual behavior is an “option”, and that our sexual preference is a matter of choice, where is your religious freedom then?
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We still have the freedom to send our kids to another school. I don’t agree with the public schools being used as a liberal training camp either, and that’s why I’m looking into private schools now. We have all the freedom in the world not to patronize the schools that do this!
RosaryFan said:
Now, I’ll address the issue of harm to society (I’m glad you asked)…

It distorts truth by taking an evil (homosexual marriage) and making it look like good; and by taking good (defense of marriage) and making it appear evil. Were we not strongly warned against this? Hmmm… now what clever entity could possibly be responsible for this distortion of truth? Let’s think…
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You are using your (our) theology and morality to make that argument. How is this not forcing our beliefs on other people? If we start doing this where does it stop? I don’t want to find myself in the minority someday. These freedoms belong to all of us, not just those that agree with us. As religious folks, it should be us that are fighting for them, because we benefit from them more than the atheists!
 
RosaryFan said:
???:confused: Didn’t you say this?
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I said using THEIR theology or morality… at the beginning of that statement.

If you have to use what we believe to base the argument on it, why would they agree with you? How is that not using our religion to force others to agree with us?

FYI…I do not use this argument in support of abortion. Abortion ends a human life and that is already illegal. The debate is about when life begins, and I think we have science on our side. I do make the case regarding all other forms of birth control though - that’s their business and on their conscience.
 
Catholicguy100 said:
We still have the freedom to send our kids to another school. I don’t agree with the public schools being used as a liberal training camp either, and that’s why I’m looking into private schools now. We have all the freedom in the world not to patronize the schools that do this!

You are using your (our) theology and morality to make that argument. How is this not forcing our beliefs on other people? If we start doing this where does it stop? I don’t want to find myself in the minority someday. These freedoms belong to all of us, not just those that agree with us. As religious folks, it should be us that are fighting for them, because we benefit from them more than the atheists!
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I could interpret for this post that you don’t think truth matters. Morality is about the truth of how humans ought to behave in order to by happy. Selling untruth (immorality) as truth cannot bring happiness nor freedom.
 
Catholicguy100 said:
We still have the freedom to send our kids to another school. I don’t agree with the public schools being used as a liberal training camp either, and that’s why I’m looking into private schools now. We have all the freedom in the world not to patronize the schools that do this!

You are using your (our) theology and morality to make that argument. How is this not forcing our beliefs on other people? If we start doing this where does it stop? I don’t want to find myself in the minority someday. These freedoms belong to all of us, not just those that agree with us. As religious folks, it should be us that are fighting for them, because we benefit from them more than the atheists!
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What other school? Before you know it, there will be no more Catholic schools, homeschooling will be illegal, and public schools will all be forced to add this garbage to the curriculum. Maybe I could move to the moon?

I’m not using my theology. What is wrong is wrong. It’s also wrong (theologically) to kill someone. Isn’t that forcing “Thou shalt not kill” on everyone else?

If you read all of my previous posts, I was adamant about opposing gay marriage for secular reasons which have nothing to do with religion. I’m afraid you are barking up the wrong tree, here. I’m the one saying it’s wrong for society for non-religious reasons, such as “The purpose of marriage in our society is to ensure a healthy environment for the continuation of our species, so if two members of the same sex cannot achieve this goal, then they shouldn’t be able to marry”. Where is religion in that statement? Read my past posts - that’s all I’ve been saying.
 
RosaryFan said:
First, I want to address Catholicguy100’s assertion that our Country’s religious freedom isn’t in jeopardy. When schools will soon be forced to teach children that homosexual behavior is an “option”, and that our sexual preference is a matter of choice, where is your religious freedom then?

Now, I’ll address the issue of harm to society (I’m glad you asked)…

It distorts truth by taking an evil (homosexual marriage) and making it look like good; and by taking good (defense of marriage) and making it appear evil. Were we not strongly warned against this? Hmmm… now what clever entity could possibly be responsible for this distortion of truth? Let’s think…

Last, but certainly not least, it is a blatant attack on the family, which is the backbone of society. Without the backbone, we won’t be able to stand. Without the strength of the family, where does that place society?

Again, think about the purpose of marriage in our society. To create a healthy environment for the continuation of our species. Once that is distorted and bastardized, then it is an attack on the very strength of our society.
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I think preventing two persons from loving each other or expressing this love is in somehow ‘evil’ , immorality is measured by how much harm you cause to others and homosexuels are not harming anyone, if you consider that they destroy the family, I see that accepting them and their rights might be a good lesson to our children of what love and acceptance truly are. Even homosexuality is not a choice, so why would God create them the way they are, then forbid them from expressing their love?!
 
Flyingg said:
I think preventing two persons from loving each other or expressing this love is in somehow ‘evil’ , immorality is measured by how much harm you cause to others and homosexuels are not harming anyone, if you consider that they destroy the family, I see that accepting them and their rights might be a good lesson to our children of what love and acceptance truly are. Even homosexuality is not a choice, so why would God create them the way they are, then forbid them from expressing their love?!
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Case in point.
 
davidv said:
I could interpret for this post that you don’t think truth matters. Morality is about the truth of how humans ought to behave in order to by happy. Selling untruth (immorality) as truth cannot bring happiness nor freedom.
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You would be absolutely wrong in that interpretation.

There are tens of thousands of different religions and sects within religions in the world. I think that all have their own form of truth that they believe in. I happen to agree with you regarding truth, but why should “our” truth be the one that an entire nation follows?

What if our nation does pass laws regarding people’s personal belief in “truth” and it’s not our version that is passed? What then?

Shouldn’t everyone be free to believe what they want?
 
RosaryFan said:
I’m not using my theology. What is wrong is wrong. It’s also wrong (theologically) to kill someone. Isn’t that forcing “Thou shalt not kill” on everyone else?
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Nobody is debating that it’s wrong to kill people. I am saying that if you ask a homosexual what truth is or what wrong is they will invariably give a different answer than you just provided. Why is your opinion more valid than theirs? Are they second class citizens somehow?
 
Catholicguy100 said:
Nobody is debating that it’s wrong to kill people. I am saying that if you ask a homosexual what truth is or what wrong is they will invariably give a different answer than you just provided. Why is your opinion more valid than theirs? Are they second class citizens somehow?
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Opinions don’t define the truth.

With respect to murder and same sex unions, the truth comes for the objective nature of the human being. Both are an affront against the human person and are grievious offenses against God.

The Church’s teaching on these matters is not an opinion, it is objective truth.

How does warning someone about an agregious sin, and preventing it from being legal, make then second class citizens? There is nothing second class about how the Church expects us to treat those with SSA.
 
davidv said:
How does warning someone about an agregious sin, and preventing it from being legal…
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This has been tried before, by the Catholic Church no less. Do I need to remind you how it worked last time?
 
@Glennonite I see this all too often in america. You are putting america above God. Plain and simple. Our job of evangelization means calling out to one another and keeping them strong in Christ and for those who do not know Him, sharing the Truth of His Word. To take the stance that “in america” everyone is free to do what they want and if two gay men want to live together, so what? If they want to get married and adopt kids? So what? You know it is a sin. And you are, in effect, turning your back on them. In allowing them to sin you may very well be taking a sin in on yourself by seeing someone so desperately calling out to Christ through their actions, and simply looking the other way because it’s what americans do. Freedom to do anything your sinful hearts could ever desire. This is why we should fight back on every issue raised for the spreading of the gay agenda. This country is spiraling down the toilet, not because of the countless financial and political issues, but because its society and culture has become a parasitic cancer that is infecting and slowly killing the rest of the world with its influence. There needs to be accountability for ALL of us. We can’t say, “republicans did this” or “democrats are doing that” It starts with each one of us. WE have to start doing what’s right. Then helping those around us who want to make the same appropriate changes in their own lives to grow closer with Christ. This country can still be salvaged through God’s grace, but the longer americans deny God by accepting or simply tolerating abortions and homosexuality and everything else in the way of sin, the further down the toilet america swirls until its too late and by our own hands do we find our destruction. Well I should say “your” as I’ve long since abandoned the notion of life in this country. I’m moving to Ireland and I’ll be praying for you all and rooting you on 😉 God Bless
 
davidv said:
Both are an affront against the human person and are grievious offenses against God.
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Why do you think that a God gets offended so quickly about two homosexuals having a relation? Maybe it would be better if he gets offended more on major things as wars, diseases, starvation, injustice and cruelties.
 
Catholicguy100 said:
Nobody is debating that it’s wrong to kill people. I am saying that if you ask a homosexual what truth is or what wrong is they will invariably give a different answer than you just provided. Why is your opinion more valid than theirs? Are they second class citizens somehow?
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This is CRAZY!!! All of these Catholics arguing about politics within a society. Are we here to serve man or God. As a Catholic, my job is to take Gods word and share it with everyone. It wasn’t a request when Jesus told the apostles to make diciples of EVERY NATION. He commanded us to do so. Gods will is spelled out in the bible. This bible that has been protected and handed down by his church is the TRUTH. Thats the only truth that matters. I hear talks in this forum about different denominations. Jesus built on church (singular not plural.) We choose whether to accept this or reject it. Thats what the free will is for. You either accept Jesus Christ and ALL his teachings, or reject Jesus Christ and ALL his teachings. You can’t pick and choose what to accept and call it freewill and think thats ok with God. Don’t get me wrong accepting God and everything it comes with is not easy. If it was everyone would do it with no problem. Its a work in progress. The more we learn about him the easier it gets to see the truth.
 
Flyingg said:
Why do you think that a God gets offended so quickly about two homosexuals having a relation? Maybe it would be better if he gets offended more on major things as wars, diseases, starvation, injustice and cruelties.
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Who says he doesn’t get offended by major things as wars, diseases, starvation, injustice and cruelties?
Man has created war, diseases, starvation, injustice and cruelties. The man leaves God out the more war, diseases, starvation, injustice and cruelties happen. If we all would follow his word, we would be in a better place. Man chooses to know more than God.
 
I think you need to come down from the mountain, the thin air is making you loopy.

Your argument is unequivocally, So What?

So what if homosexuals die in a state of mortal sin?
So what if homosexual activity is an abomination in the sight of the Lord and a stench in his nostrils?
So what if the homosexual agenda is fostering sin?
So what if homosexual activity is expressly identified as death in the New Testament?

This list goes on and on, I guess, as long as you don’t think, don’t feel, don’t care, don’t develope a conscience everything goes. Let me know how that works out for you.

Peace, g.
 
Catholicguy100 said:
Bottom line for me is that we live in a free country. It’s a rare place in the world that allows us to practice our religion without government influence. This is a great thing!!

In order to protect that we must rebuff any effort from an individual, regardless of the source; to push religion and religious beliefs on other people. Homosexuality is one of those circumstances. I don’t like it, don’t condone it, and don’t want to be near it. But I do believe that the alternative is risking the very rights that allow us to practice our religion. Not everyone shares our views, and we all have the right to the pursuit of happiness.

Using their morality and/or theology - does homosexuality hurt anybody? If the answer is no, then we have no right to use our theology to tell them not to.
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While I can appreciate where this sentiment is coming from, this is very dangerous.

What you are saying in essence is that your duty to God (which includes not only not sinning but also not endorsing the sins of others) cannot be reconciled with your duties as an American citizen – and, moreover, that you value your duties as an American above your duties as a subject of God.

Now I am not of the opinion that a good American cannot oppose gay marriage – the church’s case against it is entirely philosophical, after all, and at any rate there is no reason why laws should not be promulgated on a religious basis (separation of church and state merely requires that laws be made by secular lawmaking bodies). But *to the extent it is true *that being a good American conflicts with being a good Catholic, I would hope you would prefer to be a good Catholic. It is God, after all, who is the father of your being and the Lord of your soul, not the President.
Catholicguy100 said:
You are using your (our) theology and morality to make that argument. How is this not forcing our beliefs on other people?
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What’s wrong with this? Is the Catholic Church in the business of promoting subjective value judgments or absolute truths?
Flyingg said:
I think preventing two persons from loving each other or expressing this love is in somehow ‘evil’ , immorality is measured by how much harm you cause to others and homosexuels are not harming anyone, if you consider that they destroy the family, I see that accepting them and their rights might be a good lesson to our children of what love and acceptance truly are. Even homosexuality is not a choice, so why would God create them the way they are, then forbid them from expressing their love?!
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Recognizing that marriage is the union of man and woman hardly prevents “two persons from loving each other or exprtessing this love.” By contrast, gays’ demand that marriage be rewritten to include their perversions is a demand for more than just tolerance – it is a demand that society POSITIVELY ENDORSE their behaviors with legal and financial benefits. Why should we do this?
Catholicguy100 said:
You would be absolutely wrong in that interpretation.

There are tens of thousands of different religions and sects within religions in the world. I think that all have their own form of truth that they believe in. I happen to agree with you regarding truth, but why should “our” truth be the one that an entire nation follows?
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This is as good as saying that there are no truths at all!

There are no such things as perspectival truths. What is true is NECESSARILY true for everyone. And anyone who doesn’t accept such a truth is NECESSARILY promulgating a falsehood.

Now are Catholic moral theological teachings true, or not?
Catholicguy100 said:
Nobody is debating that it’s wrong to kill people. I am saying that if you ask a homosexual what truth is or what wrong is they will invariably give a different answer than you just provided. Why is your opinion more valid than theirs? Are they second class citizens somehow?
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Our “opinion” is objective truth, that’s what makes it more valid than their vapid, self-serving emoting.
Catholicguy100 said:
This has been tried before, by the Catholic Church no less. Do I need to remind you how it worked last time?
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I’m curious as to what it is you’re referring to here, so please, do remind me.
Flyingg said:
Why do you think that a God gets offended so quickly about two homosexuals having a relation? Maybe it would be better if he gets offended more on major things as wars, diseases, starvation, injustice and cruelties.
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Whether or not rampant sexual immorality constitutes a “major” or “minor” “thing” is precisely what is at question here.
 
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