Gay Marriage in America

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Just look around, do you see him getting offended by homosexuels behavior? No, I see only people getting offended by it and people who are being less offended about major violent things. It’s all about the people.
Your comment makes no sense. I don’t see God giving the thumbs-up for homosexual behavior either. :confused:

And if you only see a bunch of people getting offended by homosexual behavior, then maybe that’s a sure sign that society shouldn’t allow their unions to become valid marriages.

Flyingg, you’re shooting yourself in the foot.
 
Muslims say the same thing, and want to pass the same sort of laws you do. How do you feel about that. There are more of them than us.

I’ll say it again - If you enjoy the right to debate religion and practice religion freely you should support the rights of everyone to do so without using the law to push their beliefs on others.
Just to let you know, we are not trying to pass any laws. We are trying to prevent certain ideals from becoming laws. Its the homosexuals that are trying to pass their ideals as laws. The current definition of marriage in this country at least in the majority of the states is man and woman. The way God intended it to be. By the way, the muslim nations law on homosexuality is death. God commanded me to spread his word. Gods word is not debatetable.
So I guess when it comes time for people to marry animals or inanimate objects, you’ll be all for it. After all as you say, its their right.
 
Homosexuality isn’t a choice, even homosexual behaviors exist in animals, you are giving me a lesson in morality, still you think it’s ok for a god who is supposed to be intelligent and all loving to destroy a whole city for some homosexuals in it! STRANGE!
Murder and rape exist in animals. There is hardly a behavior that cannot be found in nature, for that matter. Spiders conclude their nuptials by the bride killing and eating the groom! What animals do or don’t do is essentially irrelevant, then.

As for the intelligent and all-loving God destroying a city for some homosexuals in it, I think you need to actually read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Do not let anyone mislead you. This was not a select few of the town, and their crime against humanity was not that they were homosexual. They might not even have been homosexual, in terms of orientation. Rather, their crimes were like the “homosexuality” of men’s prisons. Not only were they violating the Middle Eastern rule of hospitality to travellers. As a town, they were gang-raping strangers:

The two angels reached Sodom in the evening, as Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he got up to greet them; and bowing down with his face to the ground, he said, “Please, my lords, come aside into your servant’s house for the night, and bathe your feet; you can get up early to continue your journey.” But they replied, “No, we will pass the night in the town square.” He urged them so strongly, however, that they turned aside to his place and entered his house. He prepared a banquet for them, baking unleavened bread, and they dined.

Before they went to bed, the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old—all the people to the last man—surrounded the house. They called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sexual relations with them.” Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him, he said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not do this wicked thing! I have two daughters who have never had sexual relations with men. Let me bring them out to you,* and you may do to them as you please. But do not do anything to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.”

They replied, “Stand back! This man,” they said, “came here as a resident alien, and now he dares to give orders! We will treat you worse than them!” With that, they pressed hard against Lot, moving in closer to break down the door. But his guests put out their hands, pulled Lot inside with them, and closed the door; they struck the men at the entrance of the house, small and great, with such a blinding light that they were utterly unable to find the doorway.

Then the guests said to Lot: “Who else belongs to you here? Sons-in-law, your sons, your daughters, all who belong to you in the city—take them away from this place! We are about to destroy this place, for the outcry reaching the LORD against those here is so great that the LORD has sent us to destroy it…" *Gen. 19:1-13
 
I have been reading a lot about the Catholic viewpoint that defense of the family is the real issue regarding gay marriage. I’m on board with that. In any Catholic group, institution, college, parish, etc. we have the right to call it as we see it.

How do I transfer that viewpoint to others in the USA? In other words, in the U.S. there is an expectation or view which holds that as long as one doesn’t harm another, he/she is allowed the freedom to do as they like. “It’s a free country.” Why should I try to enact a law that is restrictive of ANY behavior that doesn’t cause direct, obvious harm to another?


As a Catholic-American, do I have a duty to try to prevent legal gay-marriage?

Can anyone help me on this question?

Glennonite
It’s a free country is the catchcry of many who want liberalised laws on matters concerning morality and their catchcry is ussually appended with another catchcry, which says that what one person does is no-one elses’s business.

The question is, when does what someone else does become the business of others?

If we pay some regard to existing criminal and civil law, there is obviously regulation about the behaviour of other people, even their private behaviours, because even that has effects upon other people. Take, for example, the laws against bigamy. Should it be anyone’s business if someone decides to have multiple wives, or multiple husbands? Society says “yes, it does matter.” So, private behaviour is indeed regulated by public morality and a morality reflected in the laws of the land. The public’s attitude to incest is another example that comes to mind. There are plenty of other examples, but, due to space constraints, I will not list them all. However, these examples invoke the obvious conclusion that there is indeed such a thing as public morality. A society is not simply governed by laws proclaimed by a Parliament, or a Congress, but it also governed by shared ideals and shared conceptions of what is right and what is wrong. Those shared conceptions are a societies moral values. Some are enshrined in the Laws of the land, some are not, but are part of a societie’s accepted conventions.

The institution of Marriage is one convention that is not simply accepted by people in a society, it is also enshrined in legislation. It is a Christian view of Marriage and it is upon that view that western societies have been built. Marriage has always been accepted and legislated as being between one man and one woman. Obvious social benefits arose from this acepted institution and that is why governments fostered and encouraged it. The people demanded it be so. There are, of course, many who couldn’t care less about the institution of marriage, nor its obvious social benefits, but they have been required to accept it as being an integral part of the society into which they have been born. That’s how societies function and flourish. Now, there are those who wish to change the way in which marriage has always been defined and always been accepted and the question is, is the private behaviour of some, if allowed by new definitions of marriage, going to cause harm to society at large?

Some who have posted here have given very compelling reasons as to why and how the redefining of marriage to include same sex couples will cause harm to one of the foundational aspects of society. The “normalising” of homosexual behaviour through the notion of ‘tolerance’ means that the once shared common morality is being broken down. We have seen examples of this with the proliferation of the pornography business. The private behaviours of some and the private desires of some have now become so widespread, so accepted, that even sceptics and champions of the right to freedom of viewing has proliferated to such an extent that even they feel that society is being harmed. Pornography has become “normalised” and yet great harm is now recognised. Still, there are those who champion an individual’s right to indulge. In doing so, they are ignoring societal cost and harm caused by the extension of individual rights. Private behaviour in this matter has become so extensive that it is now of public concern.

Many years ago, a famous English jurist, Lord Patrick Devlin, asked does it matter if one man goes home from work each night and gets blind drunk? He then asked, does it matter if one hundred men go home each night and get blind drunk? Most would say “No, that’s their business.” Devlin then asked, would it matter if half the population went home each night and got blind drunk? The answer, of course, is rather obvious. If we release individuals from accepted norms of behaviour, we encourage society at large to fragment into self serving interest groups and society fractures. Lord Devlin called the shared morality of a society the “glue” which holds society together. If we loosen the grip of that “glue” we are no longer a common society, sharing common ideals.

In the 1960’s Lord Devlin took part in a famous debate with A. L.H Hart, a Philosopher and renowned Utilitarian. Hart championed the rights of the individual, as they are supported by utilitarianism. At the time, Hart was considered the winner of that debate. Today, most people think Devlin was right after all. Individual rights, taken to the extreme, results in little more than unbridled hedonism and allows for society to fracture into special interest groups who have little more in common that whatever laws are passed by the government of the day. That, I suggest, is a dangerous path for any society to take, for it also means that law makers are also unconstrained by any type of shared morality. We see evidence of this in politics today and history is full of examples of empires which have fallen because they lost the “glue” that bound them together.

As Devlin pointed out, even tolerance should have its limits.
 
Your comment makes no sense. I don’t see God giving the thumbs-up for homosexual behavior either. :confused:
The point was that there is no god giving thumbs up as much as there isn’t a god getting offended by homosexuals behavior, we are, People are getting offended.
And if you only see a bunch of people getting offended by homosexual behavior, then maybe that’s a sure sign that society shouldn’t allow their unions to become valid marriages.

Flyingg, you’re shooting yourself in the foot.
There is also a bunch of people getting offended by seeing practicing Catholics/ Christians or a woman showing a cm of her body etc. in some societies and they call their behaviors the ‘‘absolute evil’’, if we want to apply what you are saying then there is no problem in forbiding these people from expressing their rights even if they are not hurting anyone simply because it’s socielly acceptable to do so and there is a bunch of people getting offended!
 
Murder and rape exist in animals. There is hardly a behavior that cannot be found in nature, for that matter. Spiders conclude their nuptials by the bride killing and eating the groom! What animals do or don’t do is essentially irrelevant, then.

As for the intelligent and all-loving God destroying a city for some homosexuals in it, I think you need to actually read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Do not let anyone mislead you.
What animals do is not irrelevent, it explains lot’s of the origin of our human behaviors, among them homosexuality, we are not seperated from nature, we are a part of it. Of course we have some differences but that doesn’t mean they are essientialy irrelevant.

If you think that earthquakes, volcanos, and hurricanes now are the reason of nature and not God’s anger, why you think that Sodom and Gomorah were not explained by primitives as God’s anger but in fact were only nature? Supposing the story is true it’s not even a good excuse, I fail to see that a loving intelligent being would do that.
 
Murder and rape exist in animals. There is hardly a behavior that cannot be found in nature, for that matter. Spiders conclude their nuptials by the bride killing and eating the groom! What animals do or don’t do is essentially irrelevant, then.

As for the intelligent and all-loving God destroying a city for some homosexuals in it, I think you need to actually read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Do not let anyone mislead you. This was not a select few of the town, and their crime against humanity was not that they were homosexual. They might not even have been homosexual, in terms of orientation. Rather, their crimes were like the “homosexuality” of men’s prisons. Not only were they violating the Middle Eastern rule of hospitality to travellers. As a town, they were gang-raping strangers:

The two angels reached Sodom in the evening, as Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he got up to greet them; and bowing down with his face to the ground, he said, “Please, my lords, come aside into your servant’s house for the night, and bathe your feet; you can get up early to continue your journey.” But they replied, “No, we will pass the night in the town square.” He urged them so strongly, however, that they turned aside to his place and entered his house. He prepared a banquet for them, baking unleavened bread, and they dined.

Before they went to bed, the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old—all the people to the last man—surrounded the house. They called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sexual relations with them.” Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him, he said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not do this wicked thing! I have two daughters who have never had sexual relations with men. Let me bring them out to you,* and you may do to them as you please. But do not do anything to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.”

They replied, “Stand back! This man,” they said, “came here as a resident alien, and now he dares to give orders! We will treat you worse than them!” With that, they pressed hard against Lot, moving in closer to break down the door. But his guests put out their hands, pulled Lot inside with them, and closed the door; they struck the men at the entrance of the house, small and great, with such a blinding light that they were utterly unable to find the doorway.

Then the guests said to Lot: “Who else belongs to you here? Sons-in-law, your sons, your daughters, all who belong to you in the city—take them away from this place! We are about to destroy this place, for the outcry reaching the LORD against those here is so great that the LORD has sent us to destroy it…" *Gen. 19:1-13
 
Homosexuality is not a religion. It is a perversion of nature.
Lots of things humans do might be regarded as “perversions of nature” (e.g., triple heart bypasses which frustrate the heart sufferer’s natural progression toward death), but that doesn’t make them immoral.
 
Lots of things humans do might be regarded as “perversions of nature” (e.g., triple heart bypasses which frustrate the heart sufferer’s natural progression toward death), but that doesn’t make them immoral.
 
Lots of things humans do might be regarded as “perversions of nature” (e.g., triple heart bypasses which frustrate the heart sufferer’s natural progression toward death), but that doesn’t make them immoral.
I really don’t think this is accurate at all. The need for a triple bypass is potentially a perversion of nature, the triple bypass itself is God’s presence being reveal to us and evidence of his continued creation.

BTW: your signature block about all creatures being derived from a single organism makes me wonder why this is such a “revelation”. You might as well have written, “Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust”.
 
I really don’t think this is accurate at all. The need for a triple bypass is potentially a perversion of nature, the triple bypass itself is God’s presence being reveal to us and evidence of his continued creation.
The progression toward death is natural. A triple heart bypass frustrates this natural progression. It is therefore unnatural. I am not arguing that “unnatural” human actions (like toothbrushing or trumpet playing) are wrong.
BTW: your signature block about all creatures being derived from a single organism makes me wonder why this is such a “revelation”. You might as well have written, “Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust”.
Take it up with Pope Benedict XVI - I’m quoting him.
 
This comment sounds like a prime example of someone who is only thinking the way popular media dictates is acceptable (i.e. “politically correct”). I once saw a bumper sticker that said “I’d rather be correct than politically correct”. How true! Have you taken the time to actually contemplate the purpose of marriage in society? By your disordered reasoning, a man should be allowed to marry his son or mother, too.

Society, regardless of religious affiliation, should not allow same sex marriage for the same reason it would not allow a woman to marry her son. No children can come of it; it’s a perversion of the natural order and is, therefore, harmful to society. No greater good can come of same sex marriage. There is no contribution to society, only a self-gratifying satisfaction of one’s own perverse pleasures. I don’t think society should be forced to accept a perversion of nature as “normal”.
You have a point. The incest taboo goes back a long way, though historically was not recognized everywhere. However, I don’t see a large group of people trying to legalize this; will wait until that happens before getting too excited about it. Same with bestiality and pedophilia. The issue at hand is between two adults; don’t complicate the issue by throwing in strawman arguments.
You would have a better argument saying that allowing gay marriage will lead to plural marriages; a good financial case could be made for it, but the reality of more than two adults working together in a marriage probably won’t result in large numbers of plural marriages;
I disagree that gay marriages offer no contribution to society; they get gay single people off the street and into a stable partnership; they can offer an alternative for orphans rather than foster homes or an orphanage; and pushing monogamous relationships should result in a reduction of AIDs cases.
Not too long ago (the 60’s) there were still laws on the books that made inter racial marriages illegal. And for similar reasons that you provide. I know a former Army officer married to a Japanese woman who was worried everytime they went off base in Georgia if they were going to be arrested; they were often threatened by others. Religious reasons were often given to justify these laws because they were against God’s will.
You live in a society where if 51% of the voters do vote to legalize gay marriage, then it will become law. You also live in a society where if this happens, you don’t have to approve of it or agree with it. The Church does not have to recognize gay marriages, but the courts will. We do not live in a theocracy, but in a society where atheists, agnostics, pagans, Christians, Jews, Muslims, druids, and everyone else is free to worship or not worship as they want. This is a good thing, not evil. Because it applys to you as well,
 
Lots of things humans do might be regarded as “perversions of nature” (e.g., triple heart bypasses which frustrate the heart sufferer’s natural progression toward death), but that doesn’t make them immoral.
Seriously? You are comparing homosexual behavior with bypass surgery? Bypass surgery does not twist the truth by claiming that something good (defense of marriage) is evil; and that something evil (same sex union) is good. Bypass surgery does not harm society by attacking the family and, therefore, breaking down the very fiber of society, the family unit. Bypass surgery doesn’t force schools to teach children what is against their religious beliefs (and not just Catholic, either).

The meaning of perverse is deviate; vice; wicked; depravity. Bypass surgery is none of those things.
 
Seriously? You are comparing homosexual behavior with bypass surgery? Bypass surgery does not twist the truth by claiming that something good (defense of marriage) is evil; and that something evil (same sex union) is good. Bypass surgery does not harm society by attacking the family and, therefore, breaking down the very fiber of society, the family unit. Bypass surgery doesn’t force schools to teach children what is against their religious beliefs (and not just Catholic, either).

The meaning of perverse is deviate; vice; wicked; depravity. Bypass surgery is none of those things.
My family will not break down or fall apart because two gay people get married, or even of all the gay people get married. Families break down because of internal issues, like infidelity, drinking, drugs, separations. These are the real problems that result in divorce, abandoned children, beaten wives. Your gay next door neighbor is not likely to be the cause of your family break up.
 
My family will not break down or fall apart because two gay people get married, or even of all the gay people get married. Families break down because of internal issues, like infidelity, drinking, drugs, separations. These are the real problems that result in divorce, abandoned children, beaten wives. Your gay next door neighbor is not likely to be the cause of your family break up.
Gays getting married might not affect YOUR family, alone, but the act of allowing homosexual union is an attack on the structure of the family and the importance of its role in society IN GENERAL. To belittle the very backbone of our society (the family unit) and to demote it to the downgraded position of equality with same sex unions does a grave injustice to our society. Do you want applause because you are not bothered by civil unions (even though you are “Catholic”:confused::confused::confused::confused:)? You won’t get applause from me - I say SHAME on you for not defending the truth and being fooled into thinking the evil is the good, and vice-versa.
 
Gays getting married might not affect YOUR family, alone, but the act of allowing homosexual union is an attack on the structure of the family and the importance of its role in society IN GENERAL. To belittle the very backbone of our society (the family unit) and to demote it to the downgraded position of equality with same sex unions does a grave injustice to our society. Do you want applause because you are not bothered by civil unions (even though you are “Catholic”:confused::confused::confused::confused:)? You won’t get applause from me - I say SHAME on you for not defending the truth and being fooled into thinking the evil is the good, and vice-versa.
I was not llooking for applause from anyone.
I think it boils down to are you a Catholic American or an American Catholic.
This may sound like a strange question, but it is the same one we are asking Muslims.
Are they Muslim Americans, or American Muslims? Do they support the Jihad, or do they support the American Consitution.
I support the Consitution, because it allows me to be Catholic. It may not meet your definition of Catholic, but I don’t worry too much about that.
And the Constitution applies to gays as much as it applies to me.
 
We do not live in a theocracy, but in a society where atheists, agnostics, pagans, Christians, Jews, Muslims, druids, and everyone else is free to worship or not worship as they want. This is a good thing, not evil. Because it applys to you as well,
Wardog, personally I agree with you, but to listen to their campaign rhetoric about the “Christian nation,” I suspect that a number of the Republican candidates do hanker after a theocracy. And not a just theocracy in general that would recognize the God worshipped by other peoples, but a Protestant Christian capitalist theocracy.

StAnastasia
 
Wardog, personally I agree with you, but to listen to their campaign rhetoric about the “Christian nation,” I suspect that a number of the Republican candidates do hanker after a theocracy. And not a just theocracy in general that would recognize the God worshipped by other peoples, but a Protestant Christian capitalist theocracy.

StAnastasia
You may be right, but I think that it is really more of a response to what they perceive as the Anti-Christian left, so it comes across more strong than it should. But fortunately if I am wrong, the First Amendment would prevent anyone from trying to put a theocracy in place.
 
Seriously? You are comparing homosexual behavior with bypass surgery? Bypass surgery does not twist the truth by claiming that something good (defense of marriage) is evil; and that something evil (same sex union) is good.
Rosary, I pointed out that bypass surgery is unnatural. In the state of nature people with coronary arterial obstructions naturally die. Bypass surgery interferes with this natural process. But that does not make it bad.
Bypass surgery does not harm society by attacking the family
Neither do gay unions. More people wanting to be families does not mean less marriage, any more than more people wanting to exercise means a less healthy population. For the record, I am opposed to gay marriage. I think the state should get out of the marriage business altogether and simply grant civil unions. Let the churches and synagogues do the marrying or not marrying.
and, therefore, breaking down the very fiber of society, the family unit.
You have yet to prove that this is the result.
Bypass surgery doesn’t force schools to teach children what is against their religious beliefs (and not just Catholic, either).
I said nothing about schools.
 
Many years ago, a famous English jurist, Lord Patrick Devlin, asked does it matter if one man goes home from work each night and gets blind drunk? He then asked, does it matter if one hundred men go home each night and get blind drunk? Most would say “No, that’s their business.” Devlin then asked, would it matter if half the population went home each night and got blind drunk? The answer, of course, is rather obvious. If we release individuals from accepted norms of behaviour, we encourage society at large to fragment into self serving interest groups and society fractures. Lord Devlin called the shared morality of a society the “glue” which holds society together. If we loosen the grip of that “glue” we are no longer a common society, sharing common ideals.
Most compelling; all of it. Thanks for bringing reason back to the table. 🙂

Glennonite
 
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