Gay Marriage in America

[TMC]

But your posts indicate you can oppose the Church have salvation. That’s patently false.
We’re not Catholics because it’s True (although it is). We’re Catholics because we’ve been given the incredible gift of spiritual adoption through Baptism, and are kept spiritually alive through the sacraments.

Meanwhile Pope Innocent III declared infallibly in 1208:

A person that leaves the Church for another faith because they believe that faith is true is not opposing the Church. The Church has spoken on this issue more recently than 800 years ago, and I think the Church’s teaching on the matter is clear.

 

[qui_est_ce]

And that’s all they are: stories.

Several years ago, my wife an I went to a hospital where a friend was dying. When we arrived, we said we were there to visit Mrs. So-and-So. Without asking if we were family, or any questions at all, we were immediately [if not sooner] escorted to Mrs. So-and-So’s room.

These are why I have trouble believing your “stories”. They are just fabricated hearsay with a political motive.

This has been my experience as well. I was able to go to intensive care to visit my dying next door neighbor.

Interestingly, when I went to visit my sister, who is married, in intensive care, who was not dying, I was not allowed in on husband’s orders. I refused to leave and insisted until they finally allowed me in.

 

[1234567890]

Unlike same sex unions, the infertile heterosexual couples who adopt children have no political agenda towards gender roles.

Actually, same sex couples just want to be married. The political agenda is forced on them. Let’s reverse the situation and say that heterosexual couples were denied their right to marry. Explain how they would be able to marry. You put the cart before the donkey with that one.

 

[sedonaman]

Yes, that’s an excellent thing to do.

Are you an attorney giving legal advice too?

 

[TMC]

If I have 300,000 purgatory-year credits saved up, can I carry those over to Islam? Do they expire if I don’t use them?

Sadly, I don’t think you can transfer them. I don’t think that Muslims believe in purgatory, per se. My understanding is that they do believe that a person can be redeemed from Hell if that person comes to accept God, which is not quite the same. Because redemption is based on acceptance of God, not past good works, I am not sure that they believe that you can earn credits toward that redemption in this life. Come to think of if, I am not sure I believe that either.

 

[TMC]

Why so defensive? You portray yourself as a Catholic theologian and spread heretical viewpoints, we should know what you mean by “theologian”. And when I asked what school, I was not asking what university you studied, but the school of theological formation. Thomist? Augustinian? Darwinian? Dawkinian?

Not to intrude, but can you set out what heretical viewpoints have been put forth by StAnastasia? I must’ve missed them, because I don’t recall any.

 

[StAnastasia]

My apologies. You have told me this in another thread. In the same thread you had also told me that teach in a Catholic Seminary.

My response to your post letting me know the above statistics about you was that I have an atheist friend who teaches (at least at the time of my post) theology at the local Jesuit university (ever hear of Rob Phoenix)? He’s also in my parish and attends mass regularly.

I tried googling various combinations of “Rob Phoenix” (got household burglaries in Phoenix) along with “atheist” and “Jesuit.” Came up empty.

It’s perhaps a curious thing to have an atheist teaching theology. Most non-evangelical (i.e. Dawkinsian) atheists I know just don’t care about religion. I find it curious that an atheist would be interested in teaching either theology or anti–theology. (But I do know of a young earth creationist who teaches straight geology).

Even odder is an atheist who is a regular Mass attendee (we do have agnostics in our parish who attend with their Catholic spouses and children). Could he perhaps be a lurker? A not-quite-convinced atheist who thinks maybe there is something worth checking into in Catholicism? Or who secretly hopes there is a God?

StAnastasia

 

[TMC]

Unlike same sex unions, the infertile heterosexual couples who adopt children have no political agenda towards gender roles.

None of the gay couples I know have any political agenda that I can discern towards gender roles. On the contrary, they seem just like the hetero couples I know – they are just trying their best to live their own lives.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Actually, I think the problem lies in the definition of mortal sin. Mortal sin is a knowing break with God that is serious enough to prevent the acceptance of saving grace. A person that leaves the Catholic Church for another faith because he believes that faith is true and therefore will bring him closer to God is not knowingly rejecting God, thus doing so would not be a mortal sin in that instance.

You are talking about invincible ignorance here, which is not the same thing. Arius, for example was a heretic. He should have known better. Martin Luther was also declared a heretic, his children not.

I have heard it said that Martin Luther confessed on his deathbed. Only God can know the state of his soul at death.

 

[StAnastasia]

Sadly, I don’t think you can transfer them. I don’t think that Muslims believe in purgatory, per se. My understanding is that they do believe that a person can be redeemed from Hell if that person comes to accept God, which is not quite the same. Because redemption is based on acceptance of God, not past good works, I am not sure that they believe that you can earn credits toward that redemption in this life. Come to think of if, I am not sure I believe that either.

Thanks, TMC. It was an attempt at a joke, based on my bitter discovery that United Airlines has betrayed me, and will not honor my hundreds of thousands of frequent flier miles that I earned by faithfulness to United, sacrificing getting cheaper flights on other carriers. I wanted to redeem some miles for a ticket to an upcoming theology conference.

Do you see the religious language employed even in in the transportation industry? “Honor”, “redemption,” “sacrifice,” “fidelity,” “betrayal,” “faithfulness,”
unity"?

 

[sedonaman]

Actually, same sex couples just want to be married.

Not true. Here is what they have said: 365gay.com/features/082908-corvino

The political agenda is forced on them.

By whom?

Let’s reverse the situation and say that heterosexual couples were denied their right to marry. Explain how they would be able to marry. …

There would be no society, man would revert to his feral state, and there would be no law for homosexuals to appeal their case to.

 

[Nate13]

None of the gay couples I know have any political agenda that I can discern towards gender roles. On the contrary, they seem just like the hetero couples I know – they are just trying their best to live their own lives.

That statement says a lot about nothing. Who doesn’t “try their best to live their own life”? There is nobody who doesn’t do this, because those who don’t commit suicide. So basically you just said they are alive and continue to try and live… This is not a bad thing but I think we should require more of someone who is going to adopt other than they wish to be alive.

 

[StAnastasia]

Martin Luther was also declared a heretic…I have heard it said that Martin Luther confessed on his deathbed. Only God can know the state of his soul at death.

So what? Luther was a sincere Catholic whose calls for reform were rejected by Rome. It was a tragedy on all sides, and regrettably, by the time Rome finally called a council, the issues had hardened on both sides. Although Luther had justifiable issues with the arrogance of Rome, he never turned his back on God.

Certainly Luther and Calvin and other had their faults, just like their Catholic contemporaries. Faults can be forgiven, and no doubt will be in eternity. I would be honored to spend quality “time” (whatever “time” may mean in an afterlife) with Martin Luther.

StAnastasia

 

[qui_est_ce]

I tried googling various combinations of “Rob Phoenix” (got household burglaries in Phoenix) along with “atheist” and “Jesuit.” Came up empty.

It’s perhaps a curious thing to have an atheist teaching theology. Most non-evangelical (i.e. Dawkinsian) atheists I know just don’t care about religion. I find it curious that an atheist would be interested in teaching either theology or anti–theology. (But I do know of a young earth creationist who teaches straight geology).

Even odder is an atheist who is a regular Mass attendee (we do have agnostics in our parish who attend with their Catholic spouses and children). Could he perhaps be a lurker? A not-quite-convinced atheist who thinks maybe there is something worth checking into in Catholicism? Or who secretly hopes there is a God?

StAnastasia

I don’t think it’s curious at all. He’s very interested in studying ancient cultures, texts and languages.
syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol6No1/HV6N1PRPhenixHorn.html

Hugoye in Syriac
HUGOYE: JOURNAL OF SYRIAC STUDIES

BOOK REVIEW

Christoph Luxenberg (ps.) Die syro-aramaeische Lesart des Koran; Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Qur’ānsprache. Berlin, Germany: Das Arabische Buch, First Edition, 2000. Pp. ix + 306, bibliography on pp. 307-311, no index. Paperback, Euros 29.70, no price available in US Dollars. ISBN 3-86093-274-8.

Robert R. PHENIX Jr. and Cornelia B. HORN

University of St. Thomas
Department of Theology
John Roach Center 153
2115 Summit Avenue
St. Paul, MN 55107

He goes to mass out of respect for his family.

My point is, just because one has a degree in Theology, teaches at a Catholic University, and goes to mass on Sundays does not mean one is orthodox in their belief.

 

[Santi2]

Actually, same sex couples just want to be married. The political agenda is forced on them. Let’s reverse the situation and say that heterosexual couples were denied their right to marry. Explain how they would be able to marry. You put the cart before the donkey with that one.

Please refer to my post #498 in reference to the GLF’s manifesto.

 

[TMC]

You are talking about invincible ignorance here, which is not the same thing. Arius, for example was a heretic. He should have known better. Martin Luther was also declared a heretic, his children not.

I have heard it said that Martin Luther confessed on his deathbed. Only God can know the state of his soul at death.

“Should have known better” is not the standard. “Actually does know better” is the standard. The Church says that anyone that would join the Church if they knew that doing so is necessary for salvation is invincibly ignorant. So those that join other Churches believing that those Churches are a path to salvation are necessarily invincibly ignorant. That does not mean they have a free pass to salvation, but it does mean they are not necessarily denied salvation.

 

[TMC]

Thanks, TMC. It was an attempt at a joke, based on my bitter discovery that United Airlines has betrayed me, and will not honor my hundreds of thousands of frequent flier miles that I earned by faithfulness to United, sacrificing getting cheaper flights on other carriers. I wanted to redeem some miles for a ticket to an upcoming theology conference.

Do you see the religious language employed even in in the transportation industry? “Honor”, “redemption,” “sacrifice,” “fidelity,” “betrayal,” “faithfulness,”
unity"?

I do see that and, sadly, I am not surprised by it as consumerism is the most popular religion in America today - even among supposed followers of Christ.

 

[TMC]

Not true. Here is what they have said: 365gay.com/features/082908-corvino
By whom?

There would be no society, man would revert to his feral state, and there would be no law for homosexuals to appeal their case to.

Who are the “they” in this sentence? Gay folks are no more a unitary homogenous group than any other group in America. There may be some gay people that are focused on politics, just as there are some straight people that are focused on politics. But most are just trying to live their lives, just like most straight people. True, they would prefer to have equal rights, but that desire along hardly qualifies them as activists.

 

[TMC]

That statement says a lot about nothing. Who doesn’t “try their best to live their own life”? There is nobody who doesn’t do this, because those who don’t commit suicide. So basically you just said they are alive and continue to try and live… This is not a bad thing but I think we should require more of someone who is going to adopt other than they wish to be alive.

I am happy to agree that gay couples should meet the same standards as the straight couples and single people that are currently allowed to adopt. I don’t think anyone is saying they should get special treatment, just the same treatment.

 

[qui_est_ce]

So what? Luther was a sincere Catholic whose calls for reform were rejected by Rome. It was a tragedy on all sides, and regrettably, by the time Rome finally called a council, the issues had hardened on both sides. Although Luther had justifiable issues with the arrogance of Rome, he never turned his back on God.

Certainly Luther and Calvin and other had their faults, just like their Catholic contemporaries. Faults can be forgiven, and no doubt will be in eternity. I would be honored to spend quality “time” (whatever “time” may mean in an afterlife) with Martin Luther.

StAnastasia

You missed the whole point of my post and took it off another tangent.

I wasn’t asking for personal opinion, I was stating Church Teaching. If you don’t agree with Church Teaching, that is your prerogative.

I never said the Church was perfect. I never said Martin Luther had it wrong when he protested clerical abuses.

Your constant non-sequitors are getting in the way of fruitful dialog.