Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

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Why can’t the state stop giving out marriage licenses, and instead only grant civil union licenses to everyone? :confused: People can then still get married by a church and nobody would be redefining “marriage”.
 
This is an interesting forum. I have been scanning the posts and replies and noticed a basic misunderstanding of Human Sexuality.

Is homosexuality natural? Sure. It occurs throughout the animal kingdom especially in higher mammals (elephants, dolphins, and primates other than humans.)

Homosexuality is not something a person decides to be so the idea that same sex marriage would somehow have negative effects on children is just plain silly. The most recent studies we have (dealing with gay men) indicate that sexual orientation is determined in utero before birth. It has to do with an immune response from the mother and the receptor cites for testosterone in the unborn child’s brain being less receptive to said hormone. As a result the brain develops more like a female brain. Hence same sex attraction.

Groups like NARTH are dismissed by the scientific community because they make claims which have not been validated using the scientific method.
 
Why can’t the state stop giving out marriage licenses, and instead only grant civil union licenses to everyone? :confused: People can then still get married by a church and nobody would be redefining “marriage”.
I believe that state marriage licenses are a violation of seperation of Church and State, as marriage is a religious institution and a sacrament.

We don’t have state sponsored baptisms, or state done ordinations, or state done confirmations, or state done bar mitzvahs.

But hey, but the state can do religious ceremonies like marriage, state funerals and that’s fine.
 
We mapped the entire human genome, and found no gay gene.
Yes, there is no gay gene, but we have determined that you are born gay. You don’t flip a coin during puberty, and decide what you want to be.

I’m also a little confused, you said that marriage licenses are a separation of church and state, which they are, but what did you mean by “But hey, but the state can do religious ceremonies like marriage, state funerals and that’s fine.”?
 
Yes, there is no gay gene, but we have determined that you are born gay.
Who is this “we” kemosabe? 🙂

If one is “born gay” there must be a genetic component to homosexuality, and since there is no gay gene, game over.
I’m also a little confused, you said that marriage licenses are a separation of church and state, which they are, but what did you mean by “But hey, but the state can do religious ceremonies like marriage, state funerals and that’s fine.”?
I was being facetious. Where are the SOCAS types when the government does these religious ceremonies? They should be screaming “SOCAS violation” here.
 
Homosexuality is not something a person decides to be so the idea that same sex marriage would somehow have negative effects on children is just plain silly. The most recent studies we have (dealing with gay men) indicate that sexual orientation is determined in utero before birth. It has to do with an immune response from the mother and the receptor cites for testosterone in the unborn child’s brain being less receptive to said hormone. As a result the brain develops more like a female brain. Hence same sex attraction.
Don’t need a gene.

SOCAS is what our nation is built on. I don’t see what would be so bad about changing marriage licenses to civil union licenses. You still have not given a valid reason as to why my proposal wouldn’t work.
 
Don’t need a gene.

SOCAS is what our nation is built on. I don’t see what would be so bad about changing marriage licenses to civil union licenses. You still have not given a valid reason as to why my proposal wouldn’t work.
First, we must decide under what conditions the government would issue “civil union” licenses. And we need safeguards that these conditions would not be changed in the future. This requires a definition of what a civil union is. And it requires this definition to be outside of the political process - this cannot be done using a political structure known as the secular government.

And then we must decide how they are to be treated vis-a-vis real marriages. If equal, then civil unions are the same thing as marraige legally speaking, and thus your proposal doesn’t work.

In Denmark, pedophiles have started their own political party and pushing for the right to marry. The next step down the slippery slope to hell has begun.
 
Don’t need a gene.

SOCAS is what our nation is built on. I don’t see what would be so bad about changing marriage licenses to civil union licenses. You still have not given a valid reason as to why my proposal wouldn’t work.
Why change a whole body of long settled law to accomodate the political demands of a few self- interested parties? That’s a political question really, and the bad thing is that the couyrts have turned it into a legal question. Unfortunately courts no longer defer to legislatures, which is not a good thing in a democracy like ours. It is no 😦 accident that the Federal Constitution treats the Legislation popwer first, the executive second and the judicial branch third. That is the way it is supposed to be in a republic. That, unfortunately is not the way it is now. Bottom rail on top.
 
Why change a whole body of long settled law to accommodate the political demands of a few self- interested parties? Works the same for abortion? Why make SUCH a big hassle about some dumb law? :confused: Because it’s WRONG. The same goes for Proposition 8. If the states just RENAME what they hand out to two people, you would be fine, would you not? Wasn’t the whole thing about how gays are “redefining marriage”? If you change the name to something other than marriage, you don’t have anything else to complain about.
 
This is an interesting article which gives current information in regards to human sexuality. I found the portion “loving men” especially interesting.

Why Gays Don’t Go Extinct

By Clara Moskowitz, Staff Writer

posted: 2008-06-17 8:00 pm ET
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Homosexuality in males may be caused in part by genes that can increase fertility in females, according to a new study.

The findings may help solve the puzzle of why, if homosexuality is hereditary, it hasn’t already disappeared from the gene pool, since gay people are less likely to reproduce than heterosexuals.

A team of researchers found that some female relatives of gay men tend to have more children than average. The scientists used a computer model to explain how two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.

In 2004 the researchers studied about 200 Italian families and found that the mothers, maternal aunts and maternal grandmothers of gay men are more fecund, or fruitful, than average. Recently, they tried to explain their findings with a number of genetic models, and found one that fit the bill.

“This is the first time that a model fits all our empirical data,” said Andrea Camperio-Ciani, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of Padova in Italy who led the study. “These genes work in a sexually antagonistic way — that means that when they’re represented in a female, they increase fecundity , and when they’re represented in a male, they decrease fecundity. It’s a trait that benefits one sex at the cost of the other.”

The researchers detail their findings in the June 18 issue of the journal PLoS ONE.

If this scenario turns out to be true, it could help explain the seeming paradox of hereditary homosexuality. Since gay people are less likely to reproduce than heterosexuals, many experts have wondered why, if homosexuality is caused by genetic factors, it wouldn’t have been eliminated from the gene pool already.

But if the same genes create both homosexuality in men and increased fertility in women, then any losses in offspring that come about from the males would be made up for by the females of the family.

“Sexually antagonistic selection is an old idea by Richard Dawkins, but this has never been proven in humans,” Camperio-Ciani told LiveScience. “There are a large quantity of these traits found in insects, for example, and recently in deer sexually antagonistic traits have been discovered, showing that high-ranking males produce rather unsuccessful daughters. We found that sexually antagonistic selection is operating also in our species, and we found it in a very important trait, which is homosexuality.”

A possible scenario

The question of whether homosexuality is genetically inherited has been perplexing scientists for years. While many researchers now agree homosexuality is probably caused by a mixture of nature and nurture, they are still hard pressed to explain the particulars.

Even if this sexually antagonistic genetic system is at work, it can only account for a portion of the overall causes of homosexuality in men, Camperio-Ciani said. Other factors, both genetic and social, likely also play a part.

“I think it’s almost beyond a doubt that genes have some influence,” said Ray Blanchard, a researcher at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, who studies the effect of birth order in predicting whether a male will be born homosexual. “My personal view is that there is probably more than one biological mechanism contributing toward homosexuality. I think it’s also safe to say that there is at least one non-genetic influence.”

Blanchard found that with each older brother in a family, the odds increase by about a third that a boy born later will be gay. This effect is not thought to be caused by genetics, but rather by antibodies produced by the mother’s immune system during pregnancy.

Eric Vilain, a professor of human genetics at the University of California, Los Angeles, has studied possible biological factors influencing homosexuality. He said the system studied by the Italian team seems plausible, but that it’s too soon to be convinced.

“I would like to see the first observation reproduced in a different population and possibly with a larger sample to make sure that this holds up,” he said. “If it is replicated, that’s a very interesting finding. It’s a possible scenario.”

Research by Paul Vasey, a psychologist at the University of Lethbridge in Canada, and his graduate student, Doug VanderLaan, provides preliminary support for the Italian team’s results. The scientists studied homosexual men in Independent Samoa, known locally as fa’afafine (“in the manner of a woman”). They found that the mothers of fa’afafine produce more offspring than the mothers of heterosexual men in that society.

“[Camperio-Ciani’s] results are consistent with a growing number of studies that suggest that the female relatives of male homosexuals are more fecund than those of male heterosexuals,” Vasey said.

**Loving men **

Camperio-Ciani and his team hypothesize that the genes they modeled may cause people of both sexes to be extremely attracted to men, which would lead men with the genes to pursue relationships with other men, while causing women with the genes to have more sexual partners, and become pregnant slightly more often than an average woman.

This system does not address causes of homosexuality in women, he said.

“We’re still working on lesbianism, but were not getting to the same result, and possibly we’ll come out with a completely different explanation,” he said.

The research may shed light on a complicated and controversial topic: whether homosexuality is a choice, or whether it is caused by factors beyond a person’s control.
 
Wasn’t the whole thing about how gays are “redefining marriage”? If you change the name to something other than marriage, you don’t have anything else to complain about.
OK.

Then would you support polygamous civil unions?
Pedophile civil unions?
Civil unions between brothers and sisters?
Civil unions between people and animals?

Why not?

All we’re doing in such cases is dealing with different sexual orientations, and allowing them to have civil unions.
 
The human genome has been mapped out, but is far from being entirely understood. No one can affirm there is no genetic involvement in homosexual behaviour. The likelihood is that there is.
 
Cont.

I think this is an example where the results of scientific research can have important social implications," Camperio-Ciani said. “You have all this antagonism against homosexuality because they say it’s against nature because it doesn’t lead to reproduction. We found out this is not true because homosexuality is just one of the consequences of strategies for making females more fecund.”
 
Why change a whole body of long settled law to accommodate the political demands of a few self- interested parties? Works the same for abortion? Why make SUCH a big hassle about some dumb law? :confused: Because it’s WRONG. The same goes for Proposition 8. If the states just RENAME what they hand out to two people, you would be fine, would you not? Wasn’t the whole thing about how gays are “redefining marriage”? If you change the name to something other than marriage, you don’t have anything else to complain about.
Wording is everything so I agree.
 
OK.

Then would you support polygamous civil unions?
Pedophile civil unions?
Civil unions between brothers and sisters?
Civil unions between people and animals?

Why not?

All we’re doing in such cases is dealing with different sexual orientations, and allowing them to have civil unions.
Actually as far as tradition goes historically polygamy has been the standard. The analogy using pedophilia doesn’t work because we are discussing the union of two consenting adults. Neither children nor animals have to capacity to consent.
 
OK.

Then would you support polygamous civil unions?
Pedophile civil unions?
Civil unions between brothers and sisters?
Civil unions between people and animals?

Why not?

All we’re doing in such cases is dealing with different sexual orientations, and allowing them to have civil unions.
No, I would not SUPPORT polygamous unions, but I would not reject them either. As long as no one is forced into the marriage, all the property can be divided equally, and each wife/husband is loved the same, I see nothing wrong with it.

Pedophiles are attracted to someone who is below the legal age to enter into a regular marriage. If there was an 18 (or 15, depending on the state) year old who wanted to be married to a pedophile, that would be fine.

It has been proved that when siblings marry and have children, they usually produce malformed/handicapped children. If the brother and sister could not have children for some reason, I see nothing wrong with that.

Same for the pedophile argument. Animals cannot sign contracts, let alone anything. That would present a problem when getting the license.

Still haven’t gotten me! Keep 'em coming! 😉
 
OK.

Then would you support polygamous civil unions?
Pedophile civil unions?
Civil unions between brothers and sisters?
Civil unions between people and animals?

Why not?

All we’re doing in such cases is dealing with different sexual orientations, and allowing them to have civil unions.
Bedtime Guys! Test at 9am. Look forward to further exchange of ideas. GN
 
Someone at NARTH has once quoted Dr. Francis S. Collins, Head of the Human Genome Project, as having concluded “Homosexuality Is Not Hardwired”. Then Dr. Collins himself denied that conclusion, saying:

*It troubles me greatly to learn that anything I have written would cause anguish for you or others who are seeking answers to the basis of homosexuality. The words quoted by NARTH all come from the Appendix to my book “The Language of God” (pp. 260-263), but have been juxtaposed in a way that suggests a somewhat different conclusion that I intended. I would urge anyone who is concerned about the meaning to refer back to the original text.

The evidence we have at present strongly supports the proposition that there are hereditary factors in male homosexuality — the observation that an identical twin of a male homosexual has approximately a 20% likelihood of also being gay points to this conclusion, since that is 10 times the population incidence. But the fact that the answer is not 100% also suggests that other factors besides DNA must be involved. That certainly doesn’t imply, however, that those other undefined factors are inherently alterable.

Your note indicated that your real interest is in the truth. And this is about all that we really know. No one has yet identified an actual gene that contributes to the hereditary component (the reports about a gene on the X chromosome from the 1990s have not held up), but it is likely that such genes will be found in the next few years.*
 
Pedophiles are attracted to someone who is below the legal age to enter into a regular marriage. If there was an 18 (or 15, depending on the state) year old who wanted to be married to a pedophile, that would be fine.
What if the legal age for marriage was 6, along with a corresponding reduction of contractability age? We’re dealing with people who are of a particular sexual orientation, and they would lobby the secular government to change the law to fit their lifestyle (as the homosexuals are currently doing).

Then, would you be for or against pedophiles marrying a 7 year old?
It has been proved that when siblings marry and have children, they usually produce malformed/handicapped children. If the brother and sister could not have children for some reason, I see nothing wrong with that.
But what if they could have children? For or against civil union?
Same for the pedophile argument.
Nope. One is not required to have children if one is getting a civil union. Homosexuals cannot bear children.
Animals cannot sign contracts, let alone anything. That would present a problem when getting the license.
Not really. Fido could put a paw print. Mr. Ed could put a hoof print.

And all it takes is a change in the law to let them sign. A law that could be lobbied by the right people representing a particular sexual orientation.

The problem is the term “sexual orientation” - since we’re now going to let different sexual orientations get civil unions, why not other sexual orientations?
 
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