Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

[Marnica01]

Actually, some people probably are born homosexual. While the exact cause is still unknown (there may be more than one), animal models (i.e., experiments with animals like rabbits) show males can be made to have a homosexual orientation by delaying certain hormonal events during fetal development.

What this means for Catholic moral theology is simply that we should be charitable towards homosexual people and not simply assume that they have chosen to be that way.

Martin Fracker, Ph.D. (Psychology)

 

[pepin1980]

As far as the genetic issue…webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
there is probably not 1 gay gene but a group of genes that predispositions one to be gay. Predispositions can be faught against but are extrememly difficult to combat.

It’s mentioned in the article that “The genetic scans showed a clustering of the same genetic pattern among the gay men on three chromosomes – chromosomes 7, 8, and 10. These common genetic patterns were shared by 60% of the gay men in the study.” This means that the rest of the men in this study, 40%, do NOT have this genetic pattern and are still gay. If it was genetical predisposition, they should ALL (or at least, let’s say, 90-95% of them) have it.

Another flaw I do see in this research is that it does NOT include a group of heterosexual men, in order to compare the genetic patterns in those same chromosomes in gay and straight men. You ALWAYS need a group to compare the results with, that’s one of the reasons for pharmaceutical companies to always have two groups of people whentesting a new drug - a placebo group, in order to compare the results with the group taking the real medication. What if it turns out that, let’s say, 50 or 60% of straight men have a similar pattern on these same chromosomes? How will they explain it then? They won’t be able to, that’s why they don’t have a group of straight men included in the research.
And the fact that this is the very same doctor who’s pevious research on the subject and methods are being questioned, is more that enough for me to not trust him… Just a matter of credibility.

 

[pathia]

It’s mentioned in the article that “The genetic scans showed a clustering of the same genetic pattern among the gay men on three chromosomes – chromosomes 7, 8, and 10. These common genetic patterns were shared by 60% of the gay men in the study.” This means that the rest of the men in this study, 40%, do NOT have this genetic pattern and are still gay. If it was genetical predisposition, they should ALL (or at least, let’s say, 90-95% of them) have it.

Because genetics don’t work that way. If it did, we would have a 100% rate on detecting genetically based cancers, but we don’t. You can carry down markers for cancer or any genetic disorder for that matter from your parents, and your siblings have the exact same markers, yet all of you most likely will not get the same cance/disorderr. If you find the genetic marker it merely increases your chance of having it, rather than dooms you to having it.

I suspect it is a matter of genetic predisposition and/or development (ie: womb imbalances). I have personally tried to make myself straight for over a decade, and it just doesn’t work. It may work for some. Everything about genetics works in shades of grey, so the ones that can cure themselves have a lesser gray of whatever mixture of genetics/development/environmental issues that caused the miswiring.

If it was ONLY a psychological problem, the issues would go away with the right combining of therapy, drugs and/or prayer, and at least in my case it simply never has even come close despite a decade of attempts.

 

[PaulinVA]

Here’s from a statement by orthodox rabbis, the Catholic Bishop of Rockville(Long 'Island) and some Episcopalians:

"The Catholic-Jewish statement contests the claim that refusing to recognize same-sex unions as marriage is discrimination against homosexuals. “We recognize that all persons share equally in the dignity of human nature and are entitled to have that human dignity protected, but this does not justify the creation of a new definition for a term whose traditional meaning is of critical importance to the furtherance of a fundamental societal interest,” they said.

The statement continues: “God’s design for the continuance of human life, as seen in the natural order, as well as in the Bible, clearly revolves around the union of male and female, first as husband and wife, and then as parents. A unique goal of marriage, which is reproduction and the raising of families, exists apart from that of same-sex unions, which cannot equally participate in this essential function.”"

 

[kathyw1025]

It’s mentioned in the article that “The genetic scans showed a clustering of the same genetic pattern among the gay men on three chromosomes – chromosomes 7, 8, and 10. These common genetic patterns were shared by 60% of the gay men in the study.” This means that the rest of the men in this study, 40%, do NOT have this genetic pattern and are still gay. If it was genetical predisposition, they should ALL (or at least, let’s say, 90-95% of them) have it. As has been reexplained in previous posts, genetics do not work that way. All the study said was there is a PREDISPOSITION to being homosexual. A predisposition only means there is a high likelyhood of being gay not a definate. It is likely nurture plays a big role as does nature.

Another flaw I do see in this research is that it does NOT include a group of heterosexual men, in order to compare the genetic patterns in those same chromosomes in gay and straight men. There is a group of heterosexual men. They were not included in the findings because we already know what the genes of heterosexual males look like. In order to have a scientific experiment, you must have a control (previously mapped - no need to reproduce again) group who do not have the variable being tested. That is how they get the difference of the chromosomes. You ALWAYS need a group to compare the results with, that’s one of the reasons for pharmaceutical companies to always have two groups of people whentesting a new drug - a placebo group, in order to compare the results with the group taking the real medication. What if it turns out that, let’s say, 50 or 60% of straight men have a similar pattern on these same chromosomes? How will they explain it then? They won’t be able to, that’s why they don’t have a group of straight men included in the research.
And the fact that this is the very same doctor who’s pevious research on the subject and methods are being questioned, is more that enough for me to not trust him… Just a matter of credibility.

 

[mlchance]

If it was ONLY a psychological problem, the issues would go away with the right combining of therapy, drugs and/or prayer…

While you make several good observations about the possible causes of homosexuality, this last statement fails. Even with purely psychological conditions, there is no such thing as a 100% success rate of treatment. When factoring in psychological conditions that also have underlying biological factors, the success rate diminishes even more.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

I was actually going to quote the CCC on this. We are all called to be chaste and we all go through the same struggles with sexual immoraility. This emptiness of love and desire needs to be filled with God first. Holiness and virtues will follow once Christ is fully accepted in our lives.

 

[Josh316]

Just curious, what about people born with both male and famale parts? who should they be with. And I have read studies on hormonal imbalances e.g. a man born with estrogen and vice versa

 

[pathia]

I was actually going to quote the CCC on this. We are all called to be chaste and we all go through the same struggles with sexual immoraility. This emptiness of love and desire needs to be filled with God first. Holiness and virtues will follow once Christ is fully accepted in our lives.

I’ve tried since I became aware of such things to feel the presence of God to assist me in my struggle, but I have yet to feel anything at all.

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

I’ve tried since I became aware of such things to feel the presence of God to assist me in my struggle, but I have yet to feel anything at all.

Personally it took many falls and visits to both Confession and Adoration to overcome so many struggles I faced. It is still ongoing but I can say I am doing far better than I was before. God never tires to hear our Confesion so we should never tire on going as long as we are not abusing God’s unconditional love. Also, I highly recommend finding a good spiritual director.

 

[pathia]

Personally it took many falls and visits to both Confession and Adoration to overcome so many struggles I faced. It is still ongoing but I can say I am doing far better than I was before. God never tires to hear our Confesion so we should never tire on going as long as we are not abusing God’s unconditional love. Also, I highly recommend finding a good spiritual director.

Unfortunately I’m pretty burnt out and untrusting of anyone with the Church due to my past incidents. Just meeting with people from it cause panic attacks and flash backs. I’m sort of in this push-pull relationship with it, it’s a home that I don’t feel welcome in or safe in, but it’s still home. If that makes any sense?

 

[Holly3278]

Unfortunately I’m pretty burnt out and untrusting of anyone with the Church due to my past incidents. Just meeting with people from it cause panic attacks and flash backs. I’m sort of in this push-pull relationship with it, it’s a home that I don’t feel welcome in or safe in, but it’s still home. If that makes any sense?

That makes sense to me. Anyway, I am sorry that you have had such bad incidents associated with the Church or with people from the Church. I will say a prayer for you.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

My answer:

We’re all called to be chaste. That means no sex until marriage and afterward, a proper order to sexuality. God calls us ALL to live like that.

HOWEVER, I don’t believe that a secular federal government has any business telling CONSENTING ADULTS what they can and cannot do in the bedroom. That goes for premarital sex, homosexual marriage, etc. That’s not part of the government’s job. That’s the Church’s job. The government was designed to protect our freedom and make sure we don’t kill each other (physically, not spiritually, as it’s supposed to be outside of the spiritual realm).

As for the born that way, I don’t know if it’s naturally hardwired or what, but from my perspective, I did not choose my sexuality. I choose how I act on it (staying chaste), but I didn’t choose it.

And no, people are not natural born murderers, they choose to murder. They may have violent tendencies but they choose to act negatively on them. Also, many in the gay community will agree that pedophilia and bestiality are evil abuse to innocent children and animals and stick with CONSENTING ADULTS who just don’t consider gender an important quality when falling in love (while I know God made us otherwise, many are NOT Catholic or Christian, so it’s a bit different). I don’t condone their lifestyle, but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that they’re going to fight for legal pedophilia as well.

I can imagine your gay friend would be highly offended by a possible homosexuality/pedophilia comparison. As a chaste queer, I’d take offense to that! I’m no more likely to abuse children than someone who is straight! That’s sick and wrong! Just because our sexualities are a bit out of the realm (and I don’t intend to act on my impulses) doesn’t mean we’re out to get innocent little kids! I’m sorry, but OUCH!

Seriously, outside of life issues (which should be protected), the more we try to legislate Christianity, the more we prostitute our religion and have our intentions blow up in our faces because our religion was never meant to be a political one.

Good post. Here’s to another abstinence and chastity Christian!!! I am one, myself…although from divorce. I appreciate what you said. Chastity and abstinance are the order for all who are not sacramentally married. And for the rest of my life, because of my divorce, I will remain chaste…God willing.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

When was the last time you described the pedophilic relationship as “romantic”, and not a form of explotation.
Seriously are you really this disconnected from the plight of those who yearn for companionship within a life partner?

Some pedophiles do describe the relationship as romantic…as love. And they believe that it is totally alright.

I am not so disconnected from people who yearn for companionship with a life partner. It is a natural inclination for most people…not any more homosexual than heterosexual. I have friends who are still waiting for that special person to come into their lives…even after 35 years old. And I mean heterosexuals. And they are soooo lonely if they sit and dwell on what they cannot have.

ANd then there are some who have been divorced…whether for good reasons or not. I could get an annullment, but I don’t think that it is right that people can so easily break a vow made to God and each other. And then they can get married again. I think it is wrong…and I won’t do it…even though if I did, I could get remarried.

My point is, homosexuals are not alone in their aloneness.

It is important to make friends…I would be safe and advise not to become friends with people you are or could become attracted to. But make friends. And do not go to places where you will be tempted to act impurely. And do not watch television or movies or music or books or websites that fuel fantasy. Stay in reality. Love your life, and love yourself. But remain true to God. Stay chaste and pure. Practice celibacy. Otherwise, whether you are heterosexual or homosexual…you will be miserable.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

It’s interesting to see how you stick to your ideology concerning “homosexuality”, especially when all of the biblical facts, many of which “Christians” conviently choose to overlook, are stacked against it. I also think that for you in particular, as witnessed within our private discussions, you have more proof then you are obviously comfortable with for you to still be clinging to the faulty traditions found outside the bounds of scripture. You are not doing TRUTH any favors by doing this. But somehow, I think that you already know this.

Scripture very clearly states God’s condemnation of homosexual activity. Just as in the other thread, truagape, you couldn’t defeat the WORD OF GOD. Waiting for you to show me how this is a lie.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Ohh, this is a sad situation.

My thought is that prayer and education is more important. Therapy presupose that a person has a mental problem. But it may not be exactly the case. I said education because we need to educate our conscience and understand why things are good or bad. Our hearts may not understand it by our minds can.
From my experience, I can say that there is nothing that will not have a satisfying explanation in the Catholic Church if you really searches.
Read the Catechism, the Church Fathers,Theology of the Body, and others as the Holy Spirit guides you in what is really needed for you. You will see that as more light is put on the situation you will be more peaceful.

This is not just an issue of Sexuality. Because once we understand the relevant sexual issues, we still need to understand God and how he can deal with it, how he can help us specifically… They are many things to gain. God may go from this issue and reveal to you other things in all kinds of domain and which you didn’t even think of asking. As Jesus said “Pray unceasingly…”

One thing is always true. God never allow evil unless he can get a greater good out of it. So trust more. God is always faithful and he is almight. Whenever I am in an impossible or despairing situation. I repeat to myself the first words of the Creed:
“I believe in God, the Father almight…” and meditate on each of those words trying to remember what I read in the CCC. It always helps.
Despair is the worst thing for us human to experience. We should never allow it to get hold on us.

God bless

You said it much better than I could. I tried to say it, but I kept messing up…so I would delete it. Thank you for posting.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Thanks for the link. It highlights how the “anti-gay” ideology, has slowly shifted from the backdrop of scripture and morality, from which there was never support to begin with, to the more accurate setting of prejudice and the quest for ownership of empty rehtoric.
Do you honestly think that God didn’t hear the cries of the millions of people throughout history who have been victimized by the religious lies concerning gays;

What lies would those be?

lies that are finally rising to the surface?

where have they been hidden all of this time?

The Church is beyond guilty with it’s false, discriminatory, anti-scriptural teachings regarding gays.

***What anti scriptural teachings would those be? Please bring out what you have besides accusations.

We do not discriminate. We obey God’s laws, and we love those who are suffering. We never accept that a sin is anything less or more or different than what it is…a sin. This is how homosexual actions have always been percieved. We love the sinner, but hate the sin. If there is no romantic or sexual actions by the homosexual…nor the active dwelling on them in the mind…then no sin is committed…or implied.

That is the only thing I can even remotely see your point as. Please bring to the table proof in Scripture that can back up what you are accusing us of.***

And you have a front row seat at being able to watch her as well as other false teachings, finally being called out on it.

All that you have done thus far is accuse us of being liars. You have brought nothing to the table with which to back up the accusations.

And I don’t think you’re even aware of the fact that the link you provided does more to work against you and the faulty position you support than any of my responses to your posts.

How so? Please give me examples.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Perhaps the verdict is still out on that one. Nevertheless, there is gay prejudice. And the scriptural facts, when compared to the history of the “traditions of men”, confirm this.

Show us how and where.

 

[servant_dan]

That would be a good thing to ask him I suppose but it would probably offend him because it would seem as though I was comparing homosexuals to pedophiles.

Hum, so what would be the difference? Of course, man - boy, man - man, certainly that is different. you know that book we call the Bible, into the trash can, then of course, to be a pedophile is no more wrong than a man laying with a man. I would quote the scriptures but I think you have your own bible. Also, the idea that homosexuality is a born attribute is really so much propoganda. Certainly there may a few born with more effeminite (sp?) mannerism than others but from what I have seen it is an accepted, learned, activity. I have know a couple of men happily married with childern that are not the picture of male doninate masculinity. Certaily, we men, have personalities of varying degree of what we invision male character to be. Even nature teaches us that there is male and female and for a certain purpose it is so. In the Kingdom to come there will be neither male nor female, or so says our Messiah, so why all this focus on sex, and man love, boy love. we shouldn’t even be talking about what those that are being prepared for death in their sins are doing, let alone what they think. I would suggest you get away from you born-again homosexual friend before he convert you – if that happens don’t try to say you were born that way.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

The ‘argument’ is simply a play on words, using the word ‘right’ in two different senses.

There are legal rights and there are moral rights. Of course gays are entitled to equal legal rights. Everyone, gay or straight, has a legal right to marry. A union between two members of the same gender simply isn’t a marriage. Nobody, gay or straight, has a legal right to invent new meanings to the word ‘marriage’ and receive legal recognition for them.

And of course gays and straights are entitled to equal moral rights. Nobody, gay or straight, has a moral right to sin.