Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

[court14]

That something occurs in nature does not make it consistent with it being natural as in rightly ordered. All types of things happen in our fallen world. That does not make them healthy or ordered correctly.

You are using a more modern definition of the word natural which involves morality. I was using the older definition meaning something which occurs in nature.

Not healthy or correct? Can you support this?

 

[court14]

The inclination itself, even if never acted upon, is not ordered correctly. And that is true of many other inclinations as well. The other inclinations just do not have all the political agitprop this one does.

Correct? You keep using this word but it is very non-specific. Do you mean according to writings which come out of the bronze age which also advocate a geocentric universe?

 

[BootCampJr]

“homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”

There is no official diagnosis of Homosexuality as defined by the DSM-IV

 

[court14]

Correct? You keep using this word but it is very non-specific. Do you mean according to writings which come out of the bronze age which also advocate a geocentric universe?

Off to work. Catch you guys later. C

 

[fix]

Correct? You keep using this word but it is very non-specific. Do you mean according to writings which come out of the bronze age which also advocate a geocentric universe?

The inclination is toward an objective moral evil. This can be known from different sources including the Church, right reason, that natural moral law, and frankly common sense.

 

[fix]

You are using a more modern definition of the word natural which involves morality. I was using the older definition meaning something which occurs in nature.

Not healthy or correct? Can you support this?

Does everything that occurs in nature mean it is consistent with health?

 

[fix]

There is no official diagnosis of Homosexuality as defined by the DSM-IV

The acts are disordered in that they are not ordered toward God. You will not find moral teachings in that manual you mention. If you look for moral instruction look to the Church.

 

[BobCatholic]

A romantic relationship is not something you “deserve” from the government.

Yes, if a romantic relationship becomes a government entitlement, we will have people forced into relationships by the government.

Sex slavery is not good.

As Marriage is not a constitutional right. Imagine the government forcing people into marriage! Ugh.

 

[cristininha]

Maybe the word deviant is better.

“Deviant” and “perverse” are also words that carry a lot of stigma and negative connotations. These two words can be used to describe anything, as long as it is not a part of the norm in any specific grouping.

As an example, a person could consider catholics living amongst muslims as perverse and deviants, where they deviate from the religious norm in nations with islamic majorities.

So the use of these words, although not technically impossible, only contribute to the negative stigmatization of the persons and/or groups being described, be them gays, catholics or else.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deviant

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse

The word “uncommon” is still the best way to describe anything that is not part of the norm.
…

 

[Cara_Serrano]

There is no official diagnosis of Homosexuality as defined by the DSM-IV

Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered not just based on some modern diagnosis, but because the go against the natural order and God’s purpose for creating you. In the homosexual act, you use something for a purpose for which it was not naturally intended. To put it bluntly, when you use an exit for an entrance, you go against the design of the Creator.

 

[court14]

The inclination is toward an objective moral evil. This can be known from different sources including the Church, right reason, that natural moral law, and frankly common sense.

Define Objective Moral evil and natural moral law? In what way is sexual orientation objectively evil? You are throwing out these terms without any foundation.

It sounds like you are saying it is evil because it is evil.

 

[court14]

The acts are disordered in that they are not ordered toward God. You will not find moral teachings in that manual you mention. If you look for moral instruction look to the Church.

We had the church in control of the west for over a thousand years. This is the era called “The dark ages.” A 500 yr inquisition, persecution of Jew, burning of witches and you believe looking to the church for moral instruction is the way to go. Common sense?

 

[court14]

Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered not just based on some modern diagnosis, but because the go against the natural order and God’s purpose for creating you. In the homosexual act, you use something for a purpose for which it was not naturally intended. To put it bluntly, when you use an exit for an entrance, you go against the design of the Creator.

This our main difference. It is an argument of evidence and facts vs bronze age thinking. Do you use the all church’s ideas about science (flat earth, geocentric universe) or only a select few?

 

[court14]

The problem is a misunderstanding of what natural means and what health means. Simply claiming there is a congential reason for same sex attraction, or some such reason, is no justification for stating it is reasonable, healthy, or “normal”.

But you have yet to give any reasons why it is not healthy and 10% of the population would be considered normal and fairly common place within the science and math (stats) community.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

But you have yet to give any reasons why it is not healthy and 10% of the population would be considered normal and fairly common place within the science and math (stats) community.

Sorry if I am repeating something that has already being mentioned. I did not read all the posts.
About why same sex relations are not healthy. The female
body by design complements the male. In addition, the bodies
are designed so that infections are rare, not so in gay, lesbian relations. More suicides and other mental issues are found in
in the gay community, even in those in long term relationships
who are accepted by families, etc.

 

[BobCatholic]

We had the church in control of the west for over a thousand years. This is the era called “The dark ages.”

The dark ages began after the Roman empire fell.

A 500 yr inquisition, persecution of Jew,

Obviously you don’t have the facts.

burning of witches

You’re confusing protestantism with Catholicism. Protestants burned witches. Catholic Church didn’t.

and you believe looking to the church for moral instruction is the way to go. Common sense?

It is better than going to the ego as the 1960’s secular dogma teaches. We’ve seen how badly the secular society has disintegrated in the past 40+ years.

 

[court14]

Sorry if I am repeating something that has already being mentioned. I did not read all the posts.
About why same sex relations are not healthy. The female
body by design complements the male. In addition, the bodies
are designed so that infections are rare, not so in gay, lesbian relations. More suicides and other mental issues are found in
in the gay community, even in those in long term relationships
who are accepted by families, etc.

Actually sex between two women is the safest sex and disease is much less common among lesbians than among straight couples. If disease is directly related to sexual immorality the lesbians would be considered the most moral group.

Any non monogamous sex may lead to disease.
As far as “mental issues” the major groups in the know (APA, AMA, ASWA,…) disagree with just about every thing you’ve asserted.
Do you have stats from any mainstream medical/mental health organization to support these claims?

 

[BobCatholic]

This our main difference. It is an argument of evidence and facts

Science shows there is no gay gene yet homosexual activists are trying to push the idea there is one.
Science shows that the homosexual lifestyle is harmful, yet you are here trying to defend it.

vs bronze age thinking.

You mean “homosexual lifestyle is OK”? That’s ancient Roman and Greek thinking. Long disproven by science.

So, evidence and facts versus pagan teachings is the question we should be asking you.

Do you use the all church’s ideas about science (flat earth, geocentric universe) or only a select few?

Geocentric - Obviously you don’t now who Copernicus is. The Catholic Church funded the sciences because secular governments wouldn’t.

 

[court14]

The dark ages began after the Roman empire fell.

Obviously you don’t have the facts.

You’re confusing protestantism with Catholicism. Protestants burned witches. Catholic Church didn’t.

It is better than going to the ego as the 1960’s secular dogma teaches. We’ve seen how badly the secular society has disintegrated in the past 40+ years.

Yes Rome fell after Christianity became the official state religion. The Catholic church did indeed participate in the madness of witch burning(along with protestants in the Americas) in Europe and there was some type of Inquisition almost continuously from the 12th century through the 18th century. Enlightenment and protestantism stayed the arm of the catholic church. I do have the facts. The church is known for its bloody history. Hardly a metric for morality.

Sweden and Japan are primarly secular countries and they have virtually no crime. In fact among weathy nations in the west crime increases almost in direct proportion with religion.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Father Groeshel (sp) has written on his ministry of counseling
those with same sex attraction. At one time, he recommended reading a paper on this, dealing with disease and mental issues.
I read it (quite lengthy). I will try to located it, but it’s been a few
years and I gave my copy to someone.
I’m afraid I can’t think of a non-graphic way to explain some of what refutes your comments, so I’ll try to find the link. It might
take a few days since I am in all day business meetings all day
tomorrow and appointments on Friday.