Gay Marriage: The Death Knell of Christiany

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Verdanty

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While I was searching the Trad blogsphere for some old resources I wanted to include in my latest journal article (on the SSPX “resistance”) I found something on an SSPX forum that caught my eye. While I don’t think I buy into the full argument the OP there proposes; I do wonder if there isn’t some elements of truth behind it. I wonder what you make of it.

Is the OP correct in that this issue has placed the Church in a position in which schism or collapse are inevitable? Not this decade by any means, but in the long term?

The original post can be found here Same Sex Marriage: The Death-Knell of Christianity?

I’ll only post a snippet here due to the character limit, but the link connects to the full post.

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Over the past few months I alongside a few peers have been slowly preparing a rather lengthy paper on the decline of Christianity over the previous generations; discounting the upcoming Generation Z our investigations have focused chiefly upon Millenials and Generation X and the many reasons for the decline in membership. Sex scandals, New Atheism, the decline of the family unit, the internet etc; we’re attempting to p(name removed by moderator)oint factors that have either initiated or hastened the decline of faith in the western world.

One area which I have found myself lingering around is the rise of LGBT rights, and as a matter of personal opinion (not something I can state as a matter of fact, merely an idea still at an in-development stage) I am coming to see LGBT, more specifically Same Sex Marriage as a threat to the Ancien Regime unlike any other heresy or schism before. For sure, the Reformation and the Sexual Revolution brought more individuals into conflict with Catholic teaching than the LGBT movement, but neither of them appear have so effectivley supplemented Atheism as Same Sex Marriage has. I don’t think it could have come to be without the other two as precursors, but it is a beast of a new kind.

Whereas I have noticed in regards to previous generations coming into conflict with the church, a conflict of interest such as remarriage often led unrepentant individuals not to outright reject the church, but either merely to presume it to be misguided on a singular matter or overly idealistic; very rarely among generation X did it appear to herald a total rejection of the whole deposit of faith. Church teaching on matters of sexuality was aknowledged as an ideal by many, even if they thought it was unachiveable in the modern era (i.e: One refrain I have heard nigh on incessantly in my research among the over 70’s in regards to contraception was “You can say the Lord can provide all you want, unless he turned up with an extra wage packet on Friday there’s no way I could have had more than x children”).
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Yes. I’m asking do you agree or disagree with the OP’s theory that the Same Sex Marriage issue has effectively presented the Church with Hobson’s choice? i.e that no matter what road it takes the “Winter Church” of Benedict XVI is now inevitable?
 
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Brittany said:
I apologize for my ignorance on the subject, but what is the “winter church” of Benedict XVI? I’m a new convert
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Oh I see, well congratulations on that 🙂

The Winter Church is the terminology Benedict XVI used to describe the future of the Catholic Church, a smaller faith with less influence and wealth, but closer to the early church in that members would be more devout and hold deeper more intense faith.

It’s an attitude he doesn’t seem to have abandoned since leaving the Papacy to Francis Pope Benedict XVI says Church is ‘on the verge of capsizing’ | News | LifeSite

i.e: He sees a serious decline in the Church now for the long term, or perhaps even until the world to come.
 
Christianity is already near dead in Europe. Same sex marriage won’t kill Christianity although it could certainly lead to de fact schism. But same sex marriage is simply the latest bad fruit of the sexual revolution, which had its roots in the acceptance of artificial contraception. In the end it could collapse western civilization, but Christianity will survive.
 
“…often led unrepentant individuals not to outright reject the church, but either merely to presume it to be misguided on a singular matter or overly idealistic; very rarely among generation X did it appear to herald a total rejection of the whole deposit of faith. Church teaching on matters of…”

Jesus saw into this attitude, and caused him to mention a “by the way” that he doesn’t tolerate lukewarm followers. Man, by joining is not being asked to join an Institution in error, he is being presented into perfection and invited to contribute to that perfection. The expression given to a worker new to a job site expresses it right, “Can you give Me a hand?” And so he rolls up his sleeves to do his share in that Mystical Body. He doesn’t refuse to use tools or socialize with persons who fall short of Divine expectations, but does his share to insure all people are prepared to receive the Sacraments in the form that Christ desired it.

So there is no conflict in the Church, but an anger outside that is manifest these days, a pounding at the doors, born of hatred of the Church that was prophesied would come in the end days. “Be like us” the crowd roars as it is a beast not recognized for the collective shouts of men they used to be. All it lacks is the golden calf. “Join us so that our gradual sexual permissiveness in all things will eventually have that semblance Moses found on his return”.

That stubborn lukewarmness is the adopted attitude that throws barriers into the maturation of ones faith.
 
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I think the risk here is a false choice question.

In the secular realm GLBT persons have been themselves, if you will, probably throughout all of human history.

This is a somewhat long discussion, but in short the real fight was over long ago when the Catholic Church handed over the keys of the media and art kingdom to institutions such as Hollywood in the early 20th Century, contraception worked its way into non-Catholic Churches and religion since the 1930s, no-fault divorce of the 1960s and post-modern theorists of the 1970s cropped up.

Now we have so-called gay “marriage”, but not for the reasons a lot of the activists want to believe. A lot of people just wanted everyone to shut-up about it. They never figured that religious bakeries or even farms would be forced to participate by the government. Live and let live was the motto. But one does wonder how “equal” a homosexual relationship really is to a heterosexual one if it requires all of this third-party support, especially from the force of the state.

As seriously as the Church takes the sin of practicing homosexuality, the fact is ending so-called gay “marriage”, while prudent, would not solve the fundamental problem, which quite frankly is government involvement in the name of entitlements, and the churches looking towards the state to solve problems and do their job for them.
 
People often forget that while most of Europe was pagan, Christianity was flourishing in Africa and the Middle East.

It’s not going anywhere, but the Evangelical right in the First World has lost a lot of cultural clout. I’ve discussed on other topics how this is related to the appeal to authority fallacy, and something Catholics should consider before saying “do this because Pope Francis has a degree in chemistry or catechism/Bible says this”.

It’s one reason why in over 20,000 posts on this site, you can count the number times of 2 hands I’ve quoted the Bible or catechism.
 
Setbacks to Christianity are caused by people’s pride, materialism, and inhumanity to each other. Not by any “gay boogeymen”.
 
Yes.
Western civ grew up alongside the rise of Christianity. One could even argue that Western civ became strong because of its allegiance to Christianity. But I’m not going to turn is into a thesis. 😁
Anyhow, at one point, there was a divergence–the Church went its own way, and Western civ went another.
Our civilization is pretty much dead at this point. Europe used to be an amazing place, the leader in science and philosophy and art. How long has it been since anything truly great has come out of Europe?
America is hanging on by its fingernails. There are still enough believers around to hold back a complete collapse. But there is so much division and rancor between the two main political parties…
Anyhow, the Church isn’t going anywhere. But it is trending towards “smaller” and “less influence”. OTOH, the people who will remain will have to be more serious about their faith.
 
What part of “…and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it,” are some not understanding? I’ll take the word of the Lord as the truth, thank you very much!
 
Even if people want to make that argument, a lot of that agenda has been pushed by straight virtue-signaling.
 
I reckon if less than 10 percent of the population could bring down the Church just by being gay, the European Freemasons and Stalin would have gone out and recruited gays to help in their goals.
 
Well in Europe I anticipate that sometime in the next 100 years Islam will become the main religion and then the atheists will be begging to bring the church back. I do believe ultimately the church will increase in influence again at some point.
 
Same sex marriage is the natural result of what began a century ago. It is the fruit of contraception, divorce, and abortion. While it shows the depths of sexual licence it isn’t the problem. Far more people have had their faith destroyed by divorce than by same sex marriage.
 
Christianity isn’t dead but its influence on the West is.
Personally, I would argue Christianity’s waning influence and displacement started in the 1920s, when a cultural shift was occurring.
Gay ‘marriage’ isn’t the death knell but a death knell following others, which have been listed by others on this thread.
 
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I am reminded of a quote by Leonard Nimoy in the sixth Star Trek movie. Scotty says, “Then we’re dead,” to which Spock replies, “I’ve been dead before.” So, no. The proposition shows an ignorance of history where issue after issue has arisen with pronouncements of “The End is Near.” There simply is nothing to this claim. The Catholic Church will no more claim homosexuality morally acceptable than it will abortion. As to what society does or does not do with gay marriage, and regardless of what the Church does to address these changes, that will be the Rubicon that is never crossed.
 
The incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ, tells us that nothing will destroy His Church:

Upon this rock I will build my Church and the powers of hell will not prevail against it (Mt 16:18).

Have no fear; and trust Him.
 
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well, yes, the death knell for homosexual Christians who turn their back on their faith.

The critics of lgbtq folks don’t follow the scripture, to help others carry their burdens. Benedict said that they bear a heavy, lifelong burden. He’s the first Catholic I Heard admit that. The church should have been the leader in teaching their dignity – distinguishing the sin from the sinner.
 
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