I don’t recall the Church at earlier times proposing any kind of medical diagnosis connected with SSA. It does remark (in reference to homosexuality, but I think it logically extends to SS): “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.”
Or, alternatively, a certain percentage of the human population has always had same-sex attraction, and there’s nothing unusual about it at all.niceatheist:
CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.
Now, that is not a medical statement. But if you think about it, a man experiencing a sexual attraction to a man strongly suggests that something is amiss. The attraction is simply at odds with the body.
It is a distinction of degree. Would we describe two teenage boys who masturbated together as having a deep-seated homosexuality? Clearly not if that is all we have on which to base our statement. Not would we in those terms describe a person who might occasionally entertain a thought about a same sex sexual encounter.
No, I do not think it is abnormal. And seeing as I have someone very close to me that has such an attraction, I find the notion that any would want to demonize this person or make them out to be mentally ill insulting and bigoted. If you don’t like gay people, then don’t hang around them, but to try to use your religion as some sort of cudgel, even what very religion seems to be backing away from declaring them mentally ill, says a lot about you.niceatheist:
I don’t recall the Church at earlier times proposing any kind of medical diagnosis connected with SSA. It does remark (in reference to homosexuality, but I think it logically extends to SS): “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.”
You do agree that a sexual urge directed from a man to another man is an abnormality; a contradiction given the bodily nature of men?
Commonality is not relevant. It is not usual to be born blind. We do not say it is normal to be born blind. The normal state for a human is two functioning eyes. Normal sexual attractions are toward the opposite sex for evident reason.
What other definition of “normal” is there other than commonality of occurrence? Providing you don’t want to invoke “gays should be marginalized and forced to hide because God says so!!!” In which case, if you’re living in a liberal democracy, I’d suggest moving to a more appropriate place like Russia or Iran.niceatheist:
Commonality is not relevant. It is not usual to be born blind. We do not say it is normal to be born blind. The normal state for a human is two functioning eyes. Normal sexual attractions are toward the opposite sex for evident reason.
There is no demonising, bigotry, dislike or hate involved (on my part), but I understand why you bristle. Please note I have not mentioned religion, other than when you did so.
There are enough people who appear to have attraction to members of their own gender that I posit that it is normal. And can’t you see how telling someone with SSA that they are “abnormal” is hurtful and disrespectful, and the complete opposite of compassionate.niceatheist:
There is no demonising, bigotry, dislike or hate involved (on my part), but I understand why you bristle. Please note I have not mentioned religion, other than when you did so.
Homosexuality does not meet the established test for a mental illness. But it is objectively the case that sexual attraction to the same sex is abnormal. No doubt it has some underlying cause. The following is true and I endorse it:
2358 …They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.
As the matter is personally sensitive for you, productive discussion may be difficult. But I just ask you to consider the body - its sexual organs and capacity, its form and function and then consider - “what is normal sexual attraction”.
In the mid-fourteenth century, a sizeable proportion of the population died young due to plague. They did not enjoy a “normal” life, but it was common. There is a “blueprint” for man - 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, 2 sexes designed to join sexually and attracted accordingly for that is central to survival of the species.
Yes, but I am not walking into a gay bar and announcing something to all assembled. I am not in a personal conversation with a person who experiences SSA. I’m rebutting assertions that it is perfectly normal for one man to experience sexual attraction to another and that on that basis, it is perfectly natural to pursue those sexual attractions, and for that reason, society should endorse this behaviour and elevate it to be the very same thing as natural marriage. [Not all those claims are made here, but this is the chain of reasoning.]
Only if you believe this means that 50% of people could well establish a long-term same sex relationship.
People use sexual organs in all kinds of ways that make reproduction difficult. Are you now going to declare those people as abnormal as well?niceatheist:
As the matter is personally sensitive for you, productive discussion may be difficult. But I just ask you to consider the body - its sexual organs and capacity, its form and function and then consider - “what is normal sexual attraction”.
But you’re not really rebutting it at all.niceatheist:
In the mid-fourteenth century, a sizeable proportion of the population died young due to plague. They did not enjoy a “normal” life, but it was common. There is a “blueprint” for man - 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, 2 sexes designed to join sexually and attracted accordingly for that is central to survival of the species.
Yes, but I am not walking into a gay bar and announcing something to all assembled. I am not in a personal conversation with a person who experiences SSA. I’m rebutting assertions that it is perfectly normal for one man to experience sexual attraction to another and that on that basis, it is perfectly natural to pursue those sexual attractions, and for that reason, society should endorse this behaviour and elevate it to be the very same thing as natural marriage. [Not all those claims are made here, but this is the chain of reasoning.]
If a person experiences sexual attraction - which is not a conscious act of the will - to a brick, or a pair of shoes, then that is abnormal. The discussion is not about the choices people make - but about the attraction they experience being at odds with their body.
Perhaps I’m not really on this forum at all.
So now we’re comparing homosexuals to fetishists?niceatheist:
If a person experiences sexual attraction - which is not a conscious act of the will - to a brick, or a pair of shoes, then that is abnormal. The discussion is not about the choices people make - but about the attraction they experience being at odds with their body.