Gay Marriage - What's the Problem?

[NotWorthy]

You don’t have to change Church law, just as protestant and courthouse weddings are not a Sacrament this to could be added. God was not mentioned once in my wedding and my sister had a Protestant wedding. All the Church has to do is keep doing what it has been for the last 2000 years.
Why the Church can’t let it go since it will never be a Sacramental marriage is beyond me.

Just don’t bless it.

God Bless

EC

I believe I said that I could care less what you do in the secular world. Just don’t expect to be able to be considered gay in the Catholic Church. If another faith accepts this (like, maybe the Episcopaleans), then that’s their problem. But the Catholic Church will never change on this point.

 

[thepastrychef]

They felt that way since childhood because that is when it is thought to happen.

So you are insinuating that homosexuality is a choice. If it is a choice that is made when you are a child tell me this…

When did you “choose” to be Straight? I know I never chose to be straight. I guess you had to really think about it and you chose to be straight?

To the other question - the homosexual is intrinsically evil, the others are not.

There are many things that are evil, homosexuality is not one of them.

Do you have any original thoughts of your own or are they all driven by the bible?

Have you ever spoken to a gay person?

 

[thepastrychef]

When exactly did Jesus say that divorce is possible in light of Mark 10? I think you have Matthew 5:32 &19:9 in mind. However, the relevant Greek word therein used is "porneia` which was translated as “fornication” or “unchastity”. Jesus was contrasting true marriage with “pre-marital” union. Obviously, if it is not a true marriage, a separation can certainly take place and such separation cannot be termed as divorce.

Francis

It sounds like you spent a lot of time studying the bible. However, your statements do not make a lot of sense to a regular person who does not spend time studying the bible. So divorce is not possible, but some how that is what 50% of couples do. Now there is a “true marriage” and a “pre-marital union”, what in the world is the difference? As far as I know you are either married or not married. You are not making sense to the average layman. Please clarify your thoughts so I can understand while keeping in mind I am a simple person.

 

[thepastrychef]

So brush off the clear teaching of Scripture? Is nothing a sin?

Read over the list of verses I submitted and you will find 28 teachings of the scripture that we no longer find to be appropriate. There are many sins and you will find some of them in the 28 verses, such as beating your child to death. I am pretty sure that it is now considered a sin to kill your child and strangely enough it is also against the law. Please respond with an original thought of your own and not just what the bible has to say. Have you ever spoken to a gay person?

 

[cranster]

Every human being regardless of sexual orientation should be treated with the utmost dignity, love and respect. With that said… Pointing out Scripture that condemns other sexual immorality does not validate the act of homosexual sex. Sin is sin in the eyes of God, regardless if it is an act outside of marriage or between the same sex.

I am straight, single, and celibate. I am doing my best to respond appropriately go God given my station in life. Everyone needs love and should stay within sinless bounds in all relationships. People can have very close relationships without them being sexual. There is only one way for sexual relations to happen and stay sinless, and that’s is between a man and a woman through the Sacrament of Marriage. Anything outside of that is an abomination in the eyes of God.

As a caveat, I believe the Blessed Mother told the children in Fatima that more people go to hell for sins of impurity than any other.

 

[NotWorthy]

Read over the list of verses I submitted and you will find 28 teachings of the scripture that we no longer find to be appropriate. There are many sins and you will find some of them in the 28 verses, such as beating your child to death. I am pretty sure that it is now considered a sin to kill your child and strangely enough it is also against the law. Please respond with an original thought of your own and not just what the bible has to say. Have you ever spoken to a gay person?

OK, my brother. Let me spell this out. The Catholic Church, has never claimed to be under the law of the Old Testaments. Only the Moral Laws, the 10 Commandments, still bind us.

And for that matter, no other Christian faith (that I know of) has been held bound by the Mosaic Laws that you are referencing. It is demands like this that only reveal a complete ignorance of the Old and New Testaments.

Besides, when was the last time you heard of a Christian ordering a Kosher meal on a plane?

 

[fwon2638]

It sounds like you spent a lot of time studying the bible. However, your statements do not make a lot of sense to a regular person who does not spend time studying the bible.

Well, you are the one that asserts the Catholic Church’s teaching on divorce is “against the Bible”. Obviously, I use the very same Bible to counter your allegation. Since you have been quoting the Bible, it is entirely reasonable to assume that you have read the Bible and thus know what I am talking about. If you have not read the Bible or you still don’t understand the verses that I have cited, please let me know and I will clarify.

So divorce is not possible, but some how that is what 50% of couples do.

Well, i guess there are lot of people committing many offences (e.g. driving offence and littering in the public) everyday. Just because people does it all the time, does that mean speeding, drink driving or littering should be legal or somehow now morally acceptable?

By the way, is it true that 50% of all couples have divorced? May you kindly provide the statistical evidence to support same?

Now there is a “true marriage” and a “pre-marital union”, what in the world is the difference? As far as I know you are either married or not married.

A marraige is a union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of others for life. Whereas, the “pre-marital” union is not. In a de facto relationship, a couple tries to live as husband and wife but somehow they are not willing to be actual husband and wife. I don’t understand how this can be a public committment between the couple to one and other.

You are not making sense to the average layman. Please clarify your thoughts so I can understand while keeping in mind I am a simple person

I apologise if you cannot understand me and I will try my best to clarify if possible.

 

[buffalo]

There are many things that are evil, homosexuality is not one of them.

Do you have any original thoughts of your own or are they all driven by the bible?

Have you ever spoken to a gay person?

Catholic church teaching is that the act is intrinsically evil.

No - I do not have any original thoughts. Neither do you by the way.

Yes. What’s the point?

 

[thepastrychef]

I like you NotWorthy. You are at least worthy of my admiration. You make a lot of sense and you have the intelligence to make me think about what I say. You are exactly the type of person that needs to reply to people such as myself. With that being said I have some criticism.

“Then you have the teaching of the Catholic Church wrong. The teaching is that divorce is illegal.”

I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that divorce is illegal, but there are plenty of divorced Catholics in the world. Many of them still go to church and many get married again. I have heard from plenty of gay people who’s Catholic parents have thrown them out of the house. Let’s not try to pretend that either of these things don’t happen. You are more than welcome to kick you child out of the house when they turn 18 and disobey you by being gay or anything else you do not approve of, but it does not make it right.

“In ancient Israel, a person became a slave in typically two ways.”

So there was a time that Slavery was the norm just as there was a time when stoning people to death was the norm, but we have changed and grown as a society. Thankfully we did not allow gay people into the Catholic Church but keep stoning people to death. I would have been stoned to death a while ago.

“But don’t demand that the Church will lift its condemnation of any of these sins, simply because a group of people demand it.”
“That’s great. You can have all the Secular marriages you want. I could care less. Just don’t try to have a gay marriage in the Church.”

If you want to keep gays out of your church so be it, but to keep them from the same right to marry as the rest of Americans is wrong. You may be not have an issue with gays being married but the majority of religions have a pretty big issue with them. There are plenty of other religions who have open hearts and open minds. They will be more than happy to allow gays in the church with or without the blessing of Catholics.

“You see, we have our rights, too. And one of those rights is to practice our religion the way we have in the past.”

You personally and your church as an organization have the right to do a lot of things since you live here in the USA. But, you and I both know there are plenty of terrible, hypocritical, laughable and ridiculous things that the Catholic church has done in the past. So, again, let’s not try to pretend that the Catholic church is perfect, without fault or the favorite religion of God himself.

Tell me this NotWorthy, how many gay people have you personally sat down with and had a conversation about how they feel, why they feel that way and how difficult their life is? Have you ever done anything remotely close to that?

If you ever want to talk to someone that knows what it is like to struggle with being gay you can talk to Father Geoffrey Farrow who recently told his congregation he is gay and then cleaned out his office and parish home after 23 years as an ordained minister.

abclocal.go.com/kfsn/storysection=news/local&id=6435330

Thank you, I look forward to your comments.

 

[thepastrychef]

Catholic church teaching is that the act is intrinsically evil.

No - I do not have any original thoughts. Neither do you by the way.

Yes. What’s the point?

Never mind. Your mind and heart are closed and you have not patience for anything. Jesus would not live his life that way. Good thing you live in America, you are free to be ignorant and single minded.

 

[thistle]

Never mind. Your mind and heart are closed and you have not patience for anything. Jesus would not live his life that way. Good thing you live in America, you are free to be ignorant and single minded.

Why are you suggesting what Jesus might do when you don’t even have the courage to say in your profile if you are even a Christian?
If you are a Christian then you KNOW that homosexuality is forbidden and unrepentent homosexual activity condemns gays to Hell. Scripture is very clear on this. Let me know if you want the relevant verses from Scripture.

 

[thepastrychef]

Well, i guess there are lot of people committing many offences (e.g. driving offence and littering in the public) everyday. Just because people does it all the time, does that mean speeding, drink driving or littering should be legal or somehow now morally acceptable?

Interesting argument but it really does not compare. The bible does not say you should not speed in your car, drink and drive or that littering is against the teachings of God. It does say that divorce is an abomination though. We have laws against the other stuff.

By the way, is it true that 50% of all couples have divorced? May you kindly provide the statistical evidence to support same?

divorcerate.org/

According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America:
The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

Divorce rate in Australia - Census records show that more than 55,000 divorces were granted in 2001. During the same period around 103,000 marriages were registered.

I apologize if you cannot understand me and I will try my best to clarify if possible.

I apologize if I offended you. Your English grammar is a little hard to follow but I will try harder to follow what you are trying to say.

Thank you

 

[fellowChristian]

I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that divorce is illegal, but there are plenty of divorced Catholics in the world. Many of them still go to church and many get married again.

The Church is a hospital for sinners. True many divorce. They’re still God’s children. They’re still able to worship God. If you’re Catholic and divorce then remarry you can still worship and pray to God, you can not however receive any of the sacraments.

I have heard from plenty of gay people who’s Catholic parents have thrown them out of the house. Let’s not try to pretend that either of these things don’t happen. You are more than welcome to kick you child out of the house when they turn 18 and disobey you by being gay or anything else you do not approve of, but it does not make it right.

No it does not. We are called to love God’s children but we don’t have to love the sin. We can love the person and hate the sin.

If you want to keep gays out of your church so be it, but to keep them from the same right to marry as the rest of Americans is wrong. You may be not have an issue with gays being married but the majority of religions have a pretty big issue with them. There are plenty of other religions who have open hearts and open minds. They will be more than happy to allow gays in the church with or without the blessing of Catholics.

The church does not want to keep anybody out. All are welcome to worship God. The church belongs to God it is His. The laws are from Him. It is not about “open hearts and open minds” it has nothing to do with “us”. We follow what God has passed on down from the Apostles and in Scripture. Scripture clearly shows what is not acceptable behavior.

Like homosexuality,adultry,fornication,stealing,murder and cross dressing are all just a few examples of sins that some people commit. True people who sin turn away from God but God never turns aways from us. He is always there waiting for us to turn back to Him. The people who make up the church did not vote on what would be a sin, God instructed us Himself.

We all have a cross that we have to bear.

Evan if it’s legal doesn’t make it right in the eyes of God. If you want to follow the laws of the world thats up to you. But if you want to follow God’s laws pick up your cross and follow Him.

 

[thepastrychef]

Why are you suggesting what Jesus might do when you don’t even have the courage to say in your profile if you are even a Christian?

Why do I need courage to say that I am a Christian? What is so hard about stating it or clicking a box that tells you I am a Christian or not? Christianity is the norm, courage to come out of the Christian Closet is not necessary. My next statement takes courage. I am not a practicing religious person of any kind, I am an American who has views and opinions based on the teachings of God, my parents, my education and my own investigation into the human race. I do not “only” rely on the bible or church to get get my information, beliefs or thoughts.

If you are a Christian then you KNOW that homosexuality is forbidden and unrepentent homosexual activity condemns gays to Hell. Scripture is very clear on this. Let me know if you want the relevant verses from Scripture.

If you are a Christian you KNOW that Jesus is a kind, patient and tolerant person who cares about everyone no matter who they are. He has an open heart,eyes and mind. If you are a Christian you KNOW that Divorce is an abomination.

Tell me, why is it no longer frowned upon to be divorced as it was just 40 years ago? Could it be that religious organizations have changed the way they think? Is it possible that divorce is no longer as bad as the bible makes it out to be? Is it possible that the the majority of religious organizations do not mind divorce as much as they mind homosexuality? Why is that? Both go against the teachings of God?

I will tell you why. Religious organizations have changed the way they think about divorce just as they are slowly changing the way they think about gays. Gay marriage will pass in all states eventually just as voting rights for women and blacks, interracial marriage and the repeal of the 18th amendment. All things religion was against at one point or another. The laws of America have gone against the moral majority many times in the past. Soon gays will also benefit from the civil right we all have, but you are free to “believe” that they are going to hell. You’re free to “believe” I am going to hell also if you wish. Your beliefs do not affect me in any way just as gay marriages do not affect you in any way.

The last time gay marriage was voted on in California it passed by 22 points and this time it passed by 4 points. Who do you think is winning the fight regarding gay marriage?

 

[thepastrychef]

Like homosexuality, adultery, fornication, stealing, murder and cross dressing are all just a few examples of sins that some people commit.

Thank you for your thoughts. It is nice to see that someone out there understands that religion is not about us and them.

But, where in the bible does it say that cross dressing is a sin?

Thank you

 

[thepastrychef]

You don’t have to change Church law, just as protestant and courthouse weddings are not a Sacrament this to could be added. God was not mentioned once in my wedding and my sister had a Protestant wedding. All the Church has to do is keep doing what it has been for the last 2000 years.
Why the Church can’t let it go since it will never be a Sacramental marriage is beyond me.

Just don’t bless it.

God Bless

EC

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree, no one is asking that the church bless and support all gay marriages so let it go already. It is about civil rights not religious rights.

 

[thepastrychef]

Every human being regardless of sexual orientation should be treated with the utmost dignity, love and respect. With that said… Pointing out Scripture that condemns other sexual immorality does not validate the act of homosexual sex. Sin is sin in the eyes of God, regardless if it is an act outside of marriage or between the same sex.

I am straight, single, and celibate. I am doing my best to respond appropriately go God given my station in life.

Good for you. You are free to live your life as you wish and you are free to sin if you wish. I will agree with you that Homosexuality is a sin “according to the bible” and you are free to believe that. However, gay marriage is a civil rights issue and not an issue of sin. What you “believe” is fine, but the law is the law and many laws have been changed for the sake of civil rights.

 

[thepastrychef]

But you will never see Heaven when you die for if you do not repent then you condemn yourselves to Hell forever.

If that is the case, then it is a personal choice to condemn yourself to hell forever. Why does it matter to you? If someone is going to hell and does not have an issue with it then why do you? If you want to save a soul go and save a woman or girl that is stuck on the streets selling her body to get by.

Scripture clearly and unambiguously states that homosexuality is forbidden and that it is an abomination and an affront to God.

Scripture Clearly and unambiguously says a lot of things. The majority of people in the world have done a lot of things that are forbidden. It will be okay.

Remember God made Adam and Eve and not Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve. Male and female were created to be together and not same sexes.

Come on!!! You are not going to fall back on the same bologna about Adam and Steve are you? OH PLEASE… You have to have something more interesting to say than that. If you have nothing more interesting to say please do not respond.

 

[Dauphin]

Good for you. You are free to live your life as you wish and you are free to sin if you wish. I will agree with you that Homosexuality is a sin “according to the bible” and you are free to believe that. However, gay marriage is a civil rights issue and not an issue of sin. What you “believe” is fine, but the law is the law and many laws have been changed for the sake of civil rights.

This isn’t a matter of civil rights. It’s a matter of the allocation of honour and glory.

The only reason to favour gay marriage is to lend legitimacy to homosexual relationships. The only reason to oppose gay marriage is to lend legitimacy exclusively to heterosexual relationships. The truly impartial and liberal position is for the government to get out of the business of marriage altogether.

Catholics oppose gay marriage because it legitimizes, in an extraordinary way, a gravely sinful lifestyle. Catholics aren’t suggesting that homosexuals be rounded up and forcibly split from each other. We’re only suggesting that the state has no place distorting the nature of marriage by promoting an intrinsically and gravely disordered lifestyle.

 

[thistle]

Why do I need courage to say that I am a Christian? What is so hard about stating it or clicking a box that tells you I am a Christian or not? Christianity is the norm, courage to come out of the Christian Closet is not necessary. My next statement takes courage. I am not a practicing religious person of any kind, I am an American who has views and opinions based on the teachings of God, my parents, my education and my own investigation into the human race. I do not “only” rely on the bible or church to get get my information, beliefs or thoughts.

**If you are a Christian you KNOW that Jesus is a kind, patient and tolerant person who cares about everyone no matter who they are. He has an open heart,eyes and mind. ** If you are a Christian you KNOW that Divorce is an abomination.

Tell me, why is it no longer frowned upon to be divorced as it was just 40 years ago? Could it be that religious organizations have changed the way they think? Is it possible that divorce is no longer as bad as the bible makes it out to be? Is it possible that the the majority of religious organizations do not mind divorce as much as they mind homosexuality? Why is that? Both go against the teachings of God?

I will tell you why. Religious organizations have changed the way they think about divorce just as they are slowly changing the way they think about gays. Gay marriage will pass in all states eventually just as voting rights for women and blacks, interracial marriage and the repeal of the 18th amendment. All things religion was against at one point or another. The laws of America have gone against the moral majority many times in the past. Soon gays will also benefit from the civil right we all have, but you are free to “believe” that they are going to hell. You’re free to “believe” I am going to hell also if you wish. Your beliefs do not affect me in any way just as gay marriages do not affect you in any way.

The last time gay marriage was voted on in California it passed by 22 points and this time it passed by 4 points. Who do you think is winning the fight regarding gay marriage?

This is true but you have to obey his will. Too many people (not just gays but heterosexual folks who commit adultery or those who have premarital sex) want to continue sinning and try to justify it by saying God is a loving God and why would he not want us to love and be loved? We are still good people. Why does it matter if its same sex love or pre-marital sex? These are the pleas of people who want to twist God to their will because they do not want to do God’s will.