Gay Marriage - What's the Problem?

[fwon2638]

If marriage does not lead to procreation, why would we need to regard marriage as something special?

I want to amend the above sentence so that it now reads, “If procreation is not confined to married couple, why would we need to regard marriage as something special?”

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

It affects all of humanity in the respect that God never lets these things go on forever. He allows chastisements to cause us to turn from sin, and turn back to Him. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Through abortion and world wide acceptance of homosexuality the world is inviting a chastisement from God.

Have no doubt about it!! Greek civilization went down because of homosexuality and the Roman Empire, which once ruled the world, was destroyed because of brazen immorality. God has a lot of patience, but it’s not without its limits. I think it’s possible we’re seeing the beginning of the end of Western society right now because we refuse to oppose these people.

I find it incredible that homosexuals can look you in the face and say their attempts to obliterate the moral values of our society are not harmful to us. It’s the Big Lie. The putrid garbage we see on television every night comes from Hollywood homosexuals who are very carefully ‘educating’ the our young people into the bliss of rampant sexual activity, while their alllies in education are brainwashing small children into acceptance of the homosexual life-style and telling the parents of the children they have no say in the matter. These people are without a shred of decency.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

I want to amend the above sentence so that it now reads, “If procreation is not confined to married couple, why would we need to regard marriage as something special?”

That’s the whole point. The absurd idea of men ‘marrying’ men trivializes marriage to the point where it’s no longer taken seriously in countries where it has been the norm for decades. Heterosexual couples just live together without marrying and when they break up, the state gets the children. That’s down the road for us if homosexuals get their way here.

 

[buffalo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by thepastrychef forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Never mind. Your mind and heart are closed and you have not patience for anything. Jesus would not live his life that way. Good thing you live in America, you are free to be ignorant and single minded.

Jesus had no problem calling out sin or sinners. If you don’t believe in the Bible and don’t understand the teachings then don’t pretend to know what Jesus did or didn’t do. This is a knowledgeable Catholic forum and you will get an education.

So do you want to argue biblically or logically?

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction.

Jesus had no problem calling out sin or sinners. If you don’t believe in the Bible and don’t understand the teachings then don’t pretend to know what Jesus did or didn’t do. This is a knowledgeable Catholic forum and you will get an education.

So do you want to argue biblically or logically?

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction.

Won’t or cannot answer this. Afraid?

 

[LDNCatholic]

Don’t forget to leave the rocks outside of your glass church.

Whats with the obsession over impractical houses of worship?

 

[thepastrychef]

It has little to do with the way “I” see fit. That’s the point, we follow what God says, we don’t replace God with our own conscience. I try very hard to follow His teachings which are diametrically opposed to the secular, sexually driven world. I could care less if everyone in the world thinks I’m crazy for trying to follow Gods teaching.
So, you think you know what I’m missing? You haven’t a clue. Love to me is not equal to sex. God so loved us He gave His only Son. Now that’s love, notice, nowhere does it say He expects to have sex with us. How can He love us if He doesn’t want to have sex with us? Doesn’t He know Sex=Love? Jesus loves us so much He suffered and died a horrible death for us. But wait He never asked us to have sex either, just love. He asks us to love one another, not screw one another! Love is NOT sex. I can go down town and have sex all night long to women I don’t even know, has NOTHING to do with love. I can also love everyone, yet never have sex with them. So strange, how can you love but not jump into bed with someone?
I don’t recall saying I thought you were homosexual. I’m interested in finding Gods will and following it even when it means denying myself.
Good luck, may the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you, goodbye.

My goodness Tom, I was just starting to enjoy your e-company. Sorry to hear that you are tired of me already. You may not have said I was gay but I thought I read into it when you said

Your trial is more difficult, I understand that. I fully accept you as a brother in Christ. Your sins are certainly no worse than mine, but, understand they are sins.

Speaking of reading into something…

I think you may have read into my comment about love and sex. I never said that sex=love. There are several forms of love out side of marriage. Here is what I said

I am not just talking about the act of sex. I am talking about the feelings that come with the sex, the sharing of ones self and the love one can feel outside of marriage.

Those are 3 separate things. I was not trying to imply that all of them are related to the act of sex.

I would love to hear more from you Tom but if you are done there is not much I can about that.

 

[thepastrychef]

The other aspect of marriage is that it leads to procreation. It is well know that couples get married because they want to have their own children.

Our society sees the benefit of procreation as the size of its population is a key to its survival.

Obviously, homosexual couples can never procreate and their “union” can never be same as heterosexual couples. By dismissing procreation as a factor (which they must), the proponents are now saying that marriage has got nothing to do with having children.

If marriage has got nothing to do with procreation, why would one bother, may I ask, to get married in the first place? If marriage does not lead to procreation, why would we need to regard marriage as something special?

In light of the foregoing reasons, our society is unable to recognise “gay marriage” just as it cannot make homosexual couples to have their own children.

Based on your statements above I will have to break the news to my wife that we need to get a divorce and send our beautiful adopted baby boy back to Guatemala. If you did not catch it, we are not able to procreate. On that note 99% of women over 45 can not procreate either.

If we are not going to allow gay marriage then, my marriage should also be against the law along with every woman who can not get pregnant or is over 45. Men however are free to marry any younger woman they can get ahold of.

Does that sound fair to you?

 

[thepastrychef]

Nothing’s wrong with South Africa. The point is, that’s this woman’s country; it’s where she grew up. Her morals and mores were not established in our country and we’d have been much better off if she had stayed put.

Margaret Hilary Marshall is the 23rd Chief Justice of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court

The first female to hold that position. She has been Chief Justice since 1999.

Born September 1, 1944 in Newcastle, South Africa, the daughter of a steel executive.

Marshall led a student organization for three years called the “National Union of South African Students” who opposed the racist apartheid system.

Moved to Boston, Massachusetts in 1964

Attended Harvard University (earning a master’s degree in education in 1969) and Yale Law School.

From 1976 to 1989, she was an associate and a partner in private practice at the Boston law firm of Csaplar & Bok.

From 1989 to 1992, she was a partner in the Boston law firm of Choate, Hall & Stewart.

Also from 1991 to 1992, she was President of the Boston Bar Association, the oldest bar association in the United States.

From 1992-1996, she was General Counsel to Harvard University.

Marshall was appointed to be an Associate Justice of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court in 1996 by Republican Governor William F. Weld.

She was named as Chief Justice in September 1999 by Republican Governor Paul Cellucci.

Member of the Yale Corporation, the governing body of Yale University.

In the course of her term, she has written over 200 opinions.

If you can not do the math she moved here when she was 20 and has been in America for 44 years. Also, tells me the truth all the time. Take some time and read what (Edited) NotWorthy has to say. You can find him on every page. (Edited)

 

[thepastrychef]

You’ll never get an active homosexual to agree with you. Their life is sex. It’s on their minds 24-7 and most of them are not too discerning. Those who have ‘married’ will try to get you to believe they are faithful to their partner, but don’t believe them. (Their partners aren’t faithful, either. It’s a deal they’ve made.)

       WOW!!!!

Like I said YOU’RE AN IDIOT.

 

[thepastrychef]

Whats with the obsession over impractical houses of worship?

Here is where the glass church came from. See below or #66

Originally Posted by Ferde “IDIOT” Rombola - Dragging little kids, who, in their innocence, will believe anything told to them by an adult, into the homosexual agenda is an abomination.

Originally Posted by thepastrychef - Dragging little kids into
the Homosexual lifestyle???

You should not carry rocks into the Glass Church that you attend. And you certainly should not throw them.

 

[thepastrychef]

In what may be a hopeless attempt to get this thread back on track.

pastrychef, you ask why we throw away the Old Testament laws simply because we don’t want to be bothered by them.

BibleStudy 101:
If you look at the numerous Laws given in Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus, you’ll find that Catholics are no longer obliged to follow them.

How do we get that? Acts 15 is the first Christian Council:
Note, even the italicized laws given at the end of this passage were lifted according to St. Paul’s letter to the Galatians.Now, you may ask why we have to follow the 10 Commandments, since they were given in Exodus and Leviticus? Jesus affirms that these Laws are still (and always will be) binding. In Matthew 22, we see the following exchange:
But those are only two commandments, you may ask. Well, those two wrap up all ten Commandments, according to the Jews. The first three are Love of God, and the next seven are Love of Neighbor.

So, please don’t ask us why we don’t follow Levicitus xx:yy or such, because its no longer binding.

That’s why Catholics don’t have to order kosher foods on flights.

Ladies and Gentlemen…It is official, NotWorthy is the Most Intelligent, Most Reasonable and Most Level Headed Religious Person I Know. You ALL can learn something from him, so go back and read all of his Threads.

NotWorthy you are the man and I am proud to have met you. Yes, I am serious. You make a lot of sense and I respect your intelligence. So what do you think of the stuff others have been writing?

Maybe I am making a bad assumption. I am pretty sure you are a man.

 

[fwon2638]

Dear thepastrychef,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

Maybe I have confused you so that I need to make a clarification before replying your question.

I have never said (or intended to say) that every single married couple must result in offspring. The closet statement I think is the following:

“If marriage does not lead to procreation, why would we need to regard marriage as something special?”

*However, I amended that in post #81 so that it now reads “If procreation is not confined to married couple, why would we need to regard marriage as something special?” I guess you must have overlooked that correction. I apologise for this confusion. *

In other part, I said that marriage leads to procreation. Put it differently, procreation comes from marriage. However that DOES NOT means that every single marriage on this planet must result in having kids or else their marriage is invalid (I do not think I have ever much such statement). You may also consult my definition of marriage in one of my previous replies.

*All I was (and still am) trying to say is that by coining the word “matrimony”, our society recognises that marriage is linked with procreation (like it or not, but this is the truth). While there is such a link, it DOES NOT mean that every single marriage on this planet must result in offspring (Hence you do not need to break any bad news to your wife tonight). All that required is that each married couple be opened to life. *

*It is because of this life giving/creating aspect, marriage is fundamentally different from other forms of relationships. I can have a very very committed and loving friendship or business partnership with others but these forms of relationship are not marriage. Further I can have a very very very very loving and committed relationship with my girlfriend. Yet, my relationship with my girlfriend is NOT marriage (Unless you tell me otherwise, I assume both of us can agree that it is not right to have kids outside marriage). What distinguish marriage from other form of relationships is that marriage is more than just love, feeling and commitment! *

Homosexual union clearly lacks this life creating/giving aspect. The reality is that, due to the biological difference, heterosexual union and homosexual union can never be the same. By advocating “gay marriage”, we are now forced to turn a blind eye on this very fundamental difference. With all due respect, this is unconscionable and dishonest.

*So to answer your question, “Does that sound fair to you?”. *

*My reply is that objecting “gay marriage” has got nothing to do with fairness or equality. Marriage is special because it has this life creating/giving aspect that a homosexual union can never have. Unless you are now telling me that marriage is discriminatory and should be banned in the name of fairness and equality, then I really have nothing to add. *

Aside:

*I fully respect the dignity and rights of people with homosexual orientation as individual human beings. They should not be discriminated in course of employment or social security entitlement. However, no one ever has the right to force me to accept a view that is fundamentally wrong. *

*Thank you for this fruitul discussion, I hope you are enjoying it as well. *

*Regards, *

*Francis *

 

[fellowChristian]

If we’re not obliged to follow Mosaic Ritual Laws, then we are not obliged to follow this law.

Deuteronomy 22:5 (New American Standard Bible)

5"A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

But wouldn’t this be a Moral Law? And if, I do mean if I understand any of this, can we say all Moral Law is still binding?But not all Ten Commandments are moral laws are they.

for instance …
**Exodus 20:8 **"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Keeping the Sabbath would fall into the Ritual Laws…right? That’s also why we don’t circumcise because it falls under Ritual not Moral.

**1962 **
The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:

**1963 **
According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good, yet still imperfect. Like a tutor it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin, which constitutes a “law of concupiscence” in the human heart.However, the Law remains the first stage on the way to the kingdom. It prepares and disposes the chosen people and each Christian for conversion and faith in the Savior God. It provides a teaching which endures for ever, like the Word of God.

**1967 **
The Law of the Gospel “fulfills,” refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection. In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfills the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the “kingdom of heaven.” It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with faith—the poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those persecuted on account of Christ—and so marks out the surprising ways of the Kingdom.

I understand why we don’t keep the sabbath or circumcise,but I can see why some people read the Bible and think that it contradicts itself. That’s why we need the church to guide us oh and Notworthy:thumbsup:

The** Catechism of the Catholic Church**
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3.shtml

 

[LDNCatholic]

Here is where the glass church came from. See below or #66

Yeah, I’m still not seeing it. By the way I got the clever ‘‘people in glass houses should not throw stones’’ bit. I just don’t see why you would put that in there. It had no relevance.

And you need to stop calling people idiots. You’ll be banned from the forum for these verbal attacks and then you’ll never be able to get your point across. This forum is heavily moderated and new people who turn up and start insulting people don’t tend to last long.

 

[thepastrychef]

Yeah, I’m still not seeing it. By the way I got the clever ‘‘people in glass houses should not throw stones’’ bit. I just don’t see why you would put that in there. It had no relevance.

And you need to stop calling people idiots. You’ll be banned from the forum for these verbal attacks and then you’ll never be able to get your point across. This forum is heavily moderated and new people who turn up and start insulting people don’t tend to last long.

Sorry about the idiot statements. That lady does not represent Catholics well.

As for the glass church I am referring to the church’s past inability to protect our children in the church.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread closed due to failing charity and departure from topic.