Gay marriage : who cares?

[Seeker2010]

It is adultery.

If you say so. But when I look at her actions and declare them non-adulturous, and when she looks at mine and says the same, book definitions don’t matter.

It weakens the family unit and society, it shows disrespect for one’s spouse (even if he/she gives permission) and children (who may very well grow up thinking that it is perfectly OK to commit adultery but in their cases it is a direct cause of their families falling apart). One cannot have a totally committed relationship and commit adultery.

Codswallop.

My wife has never disrespected me, despite the fact that she’s had sex with numerous men and women during our marriage. She would tell you the same, though I am straight and limit my experiences to women only. As far as kids go, do you (or would you, if the question does not apply) share the details of your sex-life with your kids?

A man who has sexual relationships with women who are not his spouse is not giving dignity to those women, even if they aren’t consciously aware of it. He is hurting himself, even if he is not consciously aware of it.

Really? How can you disrespect or hurt yourself, if said disrespect or hurt is not noticed?

 

[PatrickSebast]

Ed, I couldn’t stand you from the beginning but now I’m getting p.o’d! You have been
spewing hate about gays day in, day out. And now your not even making sense. What does a quote from a satanist have anything to do with this? Seriously, you ignorant pig.
And btw, homosexuality is natural b/c Animals are homosexual. People who have studied
animal behaviors have noticed homosexuality in badgers, dolphins, dogs, and monkeys.
What do you have to say to that? Huh? Did they make a sinful choice and are now going
to doggy hell? Huh? Oh yeah and the only anti gay qoutes In the bible are in the old
testament, which also says that women need to repent for menustrating, it’s okay to do your younger sister if she is a virgin, and killing retarded children. Do you believe in that? ( me panting, then spitting in disgust)

God bless,
nexttogodliness

Since he was commenting on my post I assume he was talking about incest and not homosexuality. Anyway part of engaging in religious discussion is accepting that there will be disagreements and at times people who won’t move or consider proper charity, sometimes you even are that person and you just haven’t realized it yet. Forums like this are a good place to practice the virtue of patience It is better to be a saint conflicting with a view of the Church than a sinner so why not start here and now, it is easier on the internet than real life after all.

 

[Seeker2010]

It is true that you are not fully committed to each other. I’m sorry but that is my opinion and I’m not changing it at this point. I’m also sorry it offended you but if I had a dime for every time I’ve been offended on this forum I’d be a millionaire.

I dispute the idea that we’re not fully committed to each other, but then again I suppose that depends on how you define ‘committed’. Rest assured, we are a team, and we come together as a group. You want one of us, you get both of us.

You are correct in that I have no experience with relationships that include consensual non-monogamy. I also have no experience in delivering a baby, jumping off the Empire State Building, designing a bridge, being the Queen of England, getting a Ph.D in botany, or scuba diving.

I have never delivered a baby, but I believe those who have when they say it’s painful. Not always the case, I suppose, but for the most part. Jumping off the empire state building will certainly end your life, and possibly call harm to others, designing a bridge improperly will cause harm to others, and the rest are irrelevant.

You have no experience in consensual non-monogamy except for your own experience. Others have different experiences just by virtue of being different people.

Taken at face value, your observation is correct, but I can observe others experiences, even if I’m not directly involved. From time to time there is drama, but that’s the exception, not the rule. From my personal experiences and observations, consensual non-monogamy causes no problems (with exceptions) and solves many (again, with exceptions).

But I have been tempted to engage in sexual relations with a few people who were married and I can understand how overwhelming that temptation is, how much I wanted to engage in it, and how I couldn’t do that to another woman, even if she gave her consent. I just couldn’t. I have also been tempted to engage in sexual relations with another woman which really threw me. In fact, that has happened a number of times.

OK, based on this statement I’m not even sure if you’re male or female. I was assuming male based on your user-id, but it seems here like you’re responding negatively to girl-on-girl same sex attraction. (I mean no disrespect, please don’t take it as such.) If you’re male responding to being attracted to other peoples wives, unless you have the permission from both husband and wife to act on that, you ARE being disrespectful. If you’re female, recognizing that you have same sex attraction is natural. As I’ve said here (and elsewhere), it seems that most women (if not all) are bisexual to some degree.

That said, regardless of gender, any sexual activity that isn’t approved by all parties involved is disrespectful. Any sexual activity that IS approved by all parties involved is not.

I don’t have to experience consensual non-monogamy in order to know that it is wrong because I rely on the teachings of the Church. What would you expect? I’m Catholic.

If you really believe that God is communicating things with the church that he’s not directly communicating with the rest of us, I cannot blame you for this statement. I, myself, do not believe that. If God wanted to talk to us, collectively or individually, he could certainly do so. That he doesn’t tells me that those who claim he has are delusional.

The Magisterium is full of people much smarter than me and I trust them.

They may, or may not, be smarter than you. That said, even if they are, it does not imply that they have divine information that is not available to you. If I claimed that God spoke to me today and told me to kill people with highlights in their hair, you’d be right to question my sanity. I say the same is true of those who claim God told them homosexuality or promiscuousness is wrong.

Thank you. I have tried to move on for many years and cannot, so I am trying to find happiness where I can and accept my loss as something I just can’t change.

I know nothing of your backstory, indeed as I said above I’m not even sure if you’re male or female, but it doesn’t matter. If you let yourself move on and be happy, it will happen.

The marriage covenant can only be formed between a man and a woman, and adultery knocks a hole in that covenant.

Seems to me if the participants in said covenant don’t think a hole has been knocked in it, then none has.

 

[LittleSoldier]

If you say so. But when I look at her actions and declare them non-adulturous, and when she looks at mine and says the same, book definitions don’t matter.

But when you use the term to communicate you need to use a word as it is understood by the person you are communicating with. And most people go by the dictionary meaning of “adultery.”

Codswallop.

You like that word, don’t you?

My wife has never disrespected me, despite the fact that she’s had sex with numerous men and women during our marriage. She would tell you the same, though I am straight and limit my experiences to women only. As far as kids go, do you (or would you, if the question does not apply) share the details of your sex-life with your kids?

Kids are not stupid. They sense when something is going on. And if I had children living with me I would share some details of my sex life, such as the facts of life (so they don’t need to learn it on the street as I did), the respect one should have for one’s body and for other people as creations of God, the mechanics of sexual behavior, the reason why sex is so important to a man and a woman who are married, why I am chaste, and why marriage is a Sacrament. And I would not lie.

Really? How can you disrespect or hurt yourself, if said disrespect or hurt is not noticed?

My father had pancreatic cancer for ten years with absolutely no symptoms. He was dying and he didn’t know. When he finally showed signs (when the cancer had metastasized to the liver) he was given two months to live and died two months later.

Hurting oneself and not knowing is common. The hurt can show up years later. I’ve read lots of posts on CAF about premarital sex, usually from men, who say they did engage in it and now regret it deeply. One of the reasons I’ve seen for the regret is that it showed a lack of respect for the woman and for the institution of marriage. This is the first thread I’ve participated in which has discussed adultery so I haven’t read any posts about any regrets yet.

And I just thought of something. Aren’t we supposed to be discussing gay marriage? You are married to a woman and are straight. So I think somehow we’ve both gotten off-topic.

I think the issue of adultery should be in its own thread and this thread returned to its original topic, as set by the OP.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Which “natural inclinations” are these? I’m seeing posts from people that are for whatever “flavor” suits a person.

Of course, followed by, Hey. What’s the big deal?

I see it on atheist forums. It goes like this: After 5 or 10 years, when them religious types calm down, it’ll just be no big deal."

As Pope Benedict said, Indifference is a big deal. Sin? What’s that? Oh, they’re not hurtin’ anybody.

“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” Aleister Crowley, Satanist

God bless,
Ed

The Pope said no such thing!! Here is what he said:

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Thursday blamed indifference as the fundamental cause of hundreds of millions of deaths in the world from lack of food, water and medicine.

signonsandiego.com/news/2010/feb/04/pope-blames-indifference-for-hunger-deaths/

And you know what? He is right!! I very much doubt he ever said anything like “Sin? What’s that? Oh, they’re not hurtin’ anybody.”

Why would you say this about our Pope? He is the Vicar of Christ!! We should show him respect, not make up awful things and report that he said them!!

This is so disrespectful. Shame on you.

 

[Veronica7978]

Ed, I couldn’t stand you from the beginning but now I’m getting p.o’d! You have been
spewing hate about gays day in, day out. And now your not even making sense. What does a quote from a satanist have anything to do with this? Seriously, you ignorant pig.
And btw, homosexuality is natural b/c Animals are homosexual. People who have studied
animal behaviors have noticed homosexuality in badgers, dolphins, dogs, and monkeys.
What do you have to say to that? Huh? Did they make a sinful choice and are now going
to doggy hell? Huh? Oh yeah and the only anti gay qoutes In the bible are in the old
testament, which also says that women need to repent for menustrating, it’s okay to do your younger sister if she is a virgin, and killing retarded children. Do you believe in that? ( me panting, then spitting in disgust)

God bless,
nexttogodliness

/]

Feel better? LOL.

I think they should change the name of these forums to Conservative Catholics Only - at least it won’t be false advertising. God bless to you all. I’m going to skip the forums. It’s obvious that there is an agenda here that I don’t want to be a part of. Let it be known; however, that not all Catholics agree with the words of hate that have been spewed. Nexttogodliness, keep the faith. Someday, they’ll see light.

 

[PatrickSebast]

The Pope said no such thing!! Here is what he said:

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Thursday blamed indifference as the fundamental cause of hundreds of millions of deaths in the world from lack of food, water and medicine.

signonsandiego.com/news/2010/feb/04/pope-blames-indifference-for-hunger-deaths/

And you know what? He is right!! I very much doubt he ever said anything like “Sin? What’s that? Oh, they’re not hurtin’ anybody.”

Why would you say this about our Pope? He is the Vicar of Christ!! We should show him respect, not make up awful things and report that he said them!!

This is so disrespectful. Shame on you.

I think you misread his post. He meant to say the Pope said “Indifference IS a big deal” then the remaining lines were meant to be a mocking of indifference. I understand how you might have been confused, but I’ve seen Ed post before and it simply isn’t his character to write the message as you received it.

 

[colmcille1]

I don’t think the “gay agenda” really has much concern for incestuous relationships. The point I was making was that incestuous marriages aren’t very difficult to get cleared because no one looks for them and no one really wants to have full background checks added into marriage certificates so it is really something that has to be combated on a social plane rather than a legal one.

Hi Patrick,
I think we are at cross purposes here. I meant to point out that, because other posters have been rightly saying that gay “marriage” equals “anything goes”, the government in such a scenario is open to exploitation. The law is not written in stone. God’s Love, fortunately, is written on every heart.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[Seeker2010]

But when you use the term to communicate you need to use a word as it is understood by the person you are communicating with. And most people go by the dictionary meaning of “adultery.”

Language has context.

If I pull out a gun and shoot someone on purpose, I have committed murder. However, if that person is threatening my life, it’s justifiable. If that person is downrange (and not visible) at a designated shooting range, it’s a horrible accident. Adultery is an offence against your (or someone else’s) spouse. If all spouses involved say it’s cool, no offence has been committed.

You like that word, don’t you?

Yes I do.

Kids are not stupid. They sense when something is going on.

You’re right, they’re not stupid, and I must concede it’s not impossible that my wife’s son has an inkling of what’s up. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. Why? Because all he knows is that his mother and I have an active social life, and we go out with friends on a regular basis. Unless he’s hacked into our email (and I’m 99.9% sure that hasn’t happened) he would have no way of knowing what goes on at the parties and events we go to.

And if I had children living with me I would share some details of my sex life, such as the facts of life (so they don’t need to learn it on the street as I did), the respect one should have for one’s body and for other people as creations of God, the mechanics of sexual behavior, the reason why sex is so important to a man and a woman who are married, why I am chaste, and why marriage is a Sacrament. And I would not lie.

That’s all well and good, but it’s also quite different that giving your children a graphic blow by blow description of what you and your SO did in bed last night.

I’ve read lots of posts on CAF about premarital sex, usually from men, who say they did engage in it and now regret it deeply. One of the reasons I’ve seen for the regret is that it showed a lack of respect for the woman and for the institution of marriage. This is the first thread I’ve participated in which has discussed adultery so I haven’t read any posts about any regrets yet.

That ‘regret’ is catholic guilt, and nothing more. There is no reason for genuinely consensual casual sex to cause guilt, because you have not harmed anyone.

Aren’t we supposed to be discussing gay marriage? You are married to a woman and are straight. So I think somehow we’ve both gotten off-topic.

You are right, but conversations have a tendency of drifting over time. I believe our conversation is a result of my response to a post that used the fact that many gay couples are consensually not monogamous as a reason for the continued prohibition on them marrying, and I pointed out that not all heterosexual couples are monogamous either, and used myself as an example.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Veronica

It’s obvious that there is an agenda here that I don’t want to be a part of. Let it be known; however, that not all Catholics agree with the words of hate that have been spewed.

And let it be known that this Catholic does not agree with Catholics who foolishly defy common sense and the Church by encouraging homosexuality through the law.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

PatrickSebast

*If you want to teach a negative consequence for sin the distance it puts between a person and their creator and the ultimate suffering of Hell are more than sufficient for that. Temporal consequences are neither consistent enough nor sufficient enough to play a role in human judgement. *

This is moral minimalism.

If we took this attitude, there would be no laws against pedophilia either, because Hell will take care of the pedophile?

Wheeeee! All the way to hell on earth!

Don’t kid yourself. The way we are sliding, in 10-20 years pedophilia will be erased from the law books as a crime against the young, just as abortion was erased as a crime against the unborn.

NAMBLA is already working on it. So are soft-in-the-head judges who don’t even give prison time to pedophiles in some of the most egregious cases.cases.

America, wake up and fight like hell!

I’m exiting this thread because I’ve heard enough to convince me that people who defend homosexuality and homosexual marriage are not really playing with a full deck.

 

[Leela]

PatrickSebast

*If you want to teach a negative consequence for sin the distance it puts between a person and their creator and the ultimate suffering of Hell are more than sufficient for that. Temporal consequences are neither consistent enough nor sufficient enough to play a role in human judgement. *

This is moral minimalism.

If we took this attitude, there would be no laws against pedophilia either, because Hell will take care of the pedophile?

Wheeeee! All the way to hell on earth!

Don’t kid yourself. The way we are sliding, in 10-20 years pedophilia will be erased from the law books as a crime against the young, just as abortion was erased as a crime against the unborn.

NAMBLA is already working on it. So are soft-in-the-head judges who don’t even give prison time to pedophiles in some of the most egregious cases.cases.

America, wake up and fight like hell!

I’m exiting this thread because I’ve heard enough to convince me that people who defend homosexuality and homosexual marriage are not really playing with a full deck.

Pedophelia can easily be argued against in terms that don’t appeal to any divine revellation. Homosexuality cannot. That is the difference.

Pedophelia is wrong because children cannot consent to sex just as rape is wrong because it is nonconsensual. This slippery slope to pedophelia idea is what is “soft-in-the-head.”

 

[SwizzleStick]

I started a thread with this back on 9/10/10, but it looks like it is relevant here. It takes a few minutes to read, but it makes many valid points.

"The Case for Marriage

If it is true, as we are constantly told, that American law will soon redefine marriage to accommodate same-sex partnerships, the proximate cause for this development will not be that public opinion favors it, although it appears to be moving in that direction. It will be that the most influential Americans, particularly those in law and the media, have been coming increasingly to regard opposition to same-sex marriage as irrational at best and bigoted at worst. They therefore dismiss expressions of that opposition, even when voiced by a majority in a progressive state, as illegitimate. Judges who believe that same-sex marriage is obviously just and right can easily find ways to read their views into constitutions, to the applause of the like-minded."…

Entire article: nationalreview.com/articles/print/245649

 

[Seeker2010]

I’m exiting this thread because I’ve heard enough to convince me that people who defend homosexuality and homosexual marriage are not really playing with a full deck.

I’d say the same about people who see a causal link between homosexual marriage and legalized pedophilia. But what do I know.

 

[dskysmine]

Pedophelia can easily be argued against in terms that don’t appeal to any divine revellation. Homosexuality cannot. That is the difference.

Pedophelia is wrong because children cannot consent to sex just as rape is wrong because it is nonconsensual. This slippery slope to pedophelia idea is what is “soft-in-the-head.”

Of course it can.
Homosexuality isn’t just about attraction. I mean… even I have sometimes the will to punch someone but it doesn’t mean that I should do it. If some one wants to die and the other one wants to kill some one should we allow it? If someone wants to consume resources without a purpose should we allow it? What’s worse here is that we are not only asked to allow it but to respect it, to honor it by providing the same importance and privileges.
Of course a homosexual has the same rights as a heterosexual… but 2 gay men can’t have the same privileges as a man and a woman. The state only provides privileges to people who contribute to the state. The state expects somethings from married people. It expects new constituants, their education, stable relationships and familiar assistance.
That is why married people get leaves to help their spouse, etc…
We aren’t trying to deny people the right to do bad stuff. We are just expressing that we don’t support it.

 

[ERose]

Just so we are clear the government doesn’t really do much of anything to check for these situations, it is the lack of social acceptance and our own natural inclinations against it that keep these things down.

Actually in most states if not all of them there are laws prohibiting incestuous marriages. In my state, you must at worse be 3rd cousins to marry.

 

[Leela]

Of course it can.
Homosexuality isn’t just about attraction. I mean… even I have sometimes the will to punch someone but it doesn’t mean that I should do it. If some one wants to die and the other one wants to kill some one should we allow it? If someone wants to consume resources without a purpose should we allow it? What’s worse here is that we are not only asked to allow it but to respect it, to honor it by providing the same importance and privileges.
Of course a homosexual has the same rights as a heterosexual… but 2 gay men can’t have the same privileges as a man and a woman. The state only provides privileges to people who contribute to the state. The state expects somethings from married people. It expects new constituants, their education, stable relationships and familiar assistance.
That is why married people get leaves to help their spouse, etc…
We aren’t trying to deny people the right to do bad stuff. We are just expressing that we don’t support it.

The issue is not at all about raising children. Many homosexual couples have children (many of these are raising their biological children), and many heterosexual couples choose not to have children. The government making allowances for couples with children is a separate issue from the government making allowances for couples that choose to have their relationships classified as marriage.

 

[ERose]

edwest2;7086863:

Which “natural inclinations” are these? I’m seeing posts from people that are for whatever “flavor” suits a person.

Of course, followed by, Hey. What’s the big deal?

I see it on atheist forums. It goes like this: After 5 or 10 years, when them religious types calm down, it’ll just be no big deal."

As Pope Benedict said, Indifference is a big deal. Sin? What’s that? Oh, they’re not hurtin’ anybody.

“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” Aleister Crowley, Satanist

Ed, I couldn’t stand you from the beginning but now I’m getting p.o’d! You have been
spewing hate about gays day in, day out. And now your not even making sense. What does a quote from a satanist have anything to do with this? Seriously, you ignorant pig.
And btw, homosexuality is natural b/c Animals are homosexual. People who have studied
animal behaviors have noticed homosexuality in badgers, dolphins, dogs, and monkeys.
What do you have to say to that? Huh? Did they make a sinful choice and are now going
to doggy hell? Huh? Oh yeah and the only anti gay qoutes In the bible are in the old
testament, which also says that women need to repent for menustrating, it’s okay to do your younger sister if she is a virgin, and killing retarded children. Do you believe in that? ( me panting, then spitting in disgust)

God bless,
nexttogodliness/]

This is something I find so interesting. When you people start loosing the argument which is always the case since the only argument you have is “Why not” and “Who does it hurt” you fall into calling people bigots and hate mongers. If you do not have the ability to produce a valid argument get off of this thread. This stupidity that you are spewing does not help your cause nor does it contribute to the debate except to show that you are ignorant. Ed has not spewed any type of hate speech that I have read. If he has quote it and debunk it. But you are not going to silence us on the this side of this debate by calling us bigots, hatemongers, homophobes, etc.

Oh yeah, start reading the Bible a little more why don’t you. For your Oh yeah argument is completely wrong.

1 Cor 6: 9,10 *Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor **boy prostitutes ***nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Tim 1: 8-11 We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law, with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, the unchaste, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Rom 1: 25-28 *They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. *

So to answer you, yes it is in the New Testament teaching. So stop trying to silence those with the truth because the truth will set you free.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The issue is not at all about raising children. Many homosexual couples have children (many of these are raising their biological children), and many heterosexual couples choose not to have children. The government making allowances for couples with children is a separate issue from the government making allowances for couples that choose to have their relationships classified as marriage.

Not in our legal system. In our system, “rights” and labels imply other rights and labels. That is entirely the point, for many of us. Married people and “married” people get priority consideration for adoptions, for example. It is assumed that married people get parenting privileges. One of the major reasons gays want the label is precisely for that reason.

 

[dskysmine]

The issue is not at all about raising children. Many homosexual couples have children (many of these are raising their biological children), and many heterosexual couples choose not to have children. The government making allowances for couples with children is a separate issue from the government making allowances for couples that choose to have their relationships classified as marriage.

Homosexual people have children from heterosexual marriages (or relationships)… not from homosexual marriages.
And married people have privileges in adopting over single people… but I don’t see anyone arguing against that…