Gay Marriage

[shelby_sun]

No - it would be potentially confusing to refer to teaching as fact.

My prudential judgement is not in the picture. What I said was that the faith does not teach about the fitness of any persons to raise a child; rather, those charged with placing children with adoptive parents make that judgement.

I do not know what teaching you are referring to.

Sorry, my confusion.

I think the Church’s stance is that it is best to have a husband and a wife raising a child. If it has a teaching on same sex couples raising children it is not clear or I am not aware that their are rules to that kind of situation yet. Although you have obviously read people on this forum that seem to claim there are.

 

[Thorns]

And if you tried explaining the internet, rockets taking humans to the moon, astroturf, antibiotics, 3D-movies, Scotch Tape, liposuction, female doctors, freeze-dried coffee, and virtual reality to people three centuries ago, you’d be looked at as if you were crazy.

But times, ideas, and people change and move forward.

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Homosexuality is as ancient as 3,000 years ago ancient Greece where they even exalted it. Its time to move forward as times change and drop that silly notion of exalting gay behavior

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Sorry, my confusion.

I think the Church’s stance is that it is best to have a husband and a wife raising a child. If it has a teaching on same sex couples raising children it is not clear or I am not aware that their are rules to that kind of situation yet. Although you have obviously read people on this forum that seem to claim there are.

You can read this post whereby I provided the position of the Church on gay adoption / parenting. If you read all nine Q&As in the link from the USCCB site, I think you would have a better appreciation and understanding of the Catholic position on the issue of same sex couples raising children.
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[shelby_sun]

You can read this post whereby I provided the position of the Church on gay adoption / parenting. If you read all nine Q&As in the link from the USCCB site, I think you would have a better appreciation and understanding of the Catholic position on the issue of same sex couples raising children.
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Thank you.

 

[Captain_America]

I agree. Too many children have parents that don’t care about them.

I once read, if I remember correctly, a long study on children raised by two same sex parents. It concluded that the children raised were no worse off and even tended to fair off slightly better than the average child. The theories on that weren’t that same sex parents were inherently better, it was that stability of two parents seemed to be the most important thing in raising a child. The shared burden of it.

It’s thought the reason why they tended to be slightly above average is because the average was brought down by people who didn’t want to have/didn’t care about their kids (the amount of people that have kids accidentaly for example, I know of many teenage pregnancies in my small town alone) whereas it wasn’t possible to have kids accidently in a same sex relationship. The child was there because both parents wanted it to be there to raise it with love and care.

It makes me sad when people argue against letting a child be raised by two loving parents. That’s something that many of us would have loved in our childhoods, stability and love.

So anyway, I’m glad you said that Kitcat.

The study you refer to has since been debunked.

It was a collection of self-selected friends of the study author, which kills its usefulness. By the way, it also was a small, tiny group, so not particularly useful on this basis either.

Anyway, how many "bad parents’ are going to spend the energy to participate? or wish to? Obviously the political willpower to prove a point is at play.

So it goes.

 

[DrTaffy]

The study you refer to has since been debunked.

How can you possibly assert that when Ben did not say which study he was referring to?

There have been several dozen, the vast majority of which have concluded that same sex parents are at least as good as opposite sex ones. The final report of one of the most recent ones, the Australian Study of Child Health in Same-Sex Families, hasn’t even been published yet, so can hardly have been ‘debunked’.

 

[shelby_sun]

You can read this post whereby I provided the position of the Church on gay adoption / parenting. If you read all nine Q&As in the link from the USCCB site, I think you would have a better appreciation and understanding of the Catholic position on the issue of same sex couples raising children.
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Thank you again for your link; however, no one wants to seem to address the thousands and thousands of children around the world that need to be adopted and who will end up with no family to call there own. Can anyone here even imagine that in their own lives.

Many people who follow this so loyally have never adopted a child. Many of those who gone through the adoption process have a better understanding of many children need good people to love them. The Church needs to really start to look into this issue more. What do you think happens to these kids that never get out of the foster care system. Do you really believe they would have lower self worth being raised by a loving, hard working gay couple who will be there for them the rest of their lives. People need to stat addressing that this is one of those issues that is not getting better and we need to start looking at what situation is worse rather than what is the best possible situation, one that is less and less like to happen.

All to often these days it comes down to doing whatever we can to help a child of God or following the Church. In another post someone asked if we are starting to worship the Church more than God. In cases like this, it is my opinion that that is what is happening.

BTW I always wanted to adopt a child, but after 3 of my own my husband said no.

 

[NekoNecro]

Thank you again for your link; however, no one wants to seem to address the thousands and thousands of children around the world that need to be adopted and who will end up with no family to call there own. Can anyone here even imagine that in their own lives.

Many people who follow this so loyally have never adopted a child. Many of those who gone through the adoption process have a better understanding of many children need good people to love them. The Church needs to really start to look into this issue more. What do you think happens to these kids that never get out of the foster care system. Do you really believe they would have lower self worth being raised by a loving, hard working gay couple who will be there for them the rest of their lives. People need to stat addressing that this is one of those issues that is not getting better and we need to start looking at what situation is worse rather than what is the best possible situation, one that is less and less like to happen.

All to often these days it comes down to doing whatever we can to help a child of God or following the Church. In another post someone asked if we are starting to worship the Church more than God. In cases like this, it is my opinion that that is what is happening.

BTW I always wanted to adopt a child, but after 3 of my own my husband said no.

Thank you, I personally agree with you on this matter, but as I’m sure you know, the Catholic church is rarely willing to accept a compromise unless directly forced (such as when the Kingdom of Italy invaded the Papal States).

Lifelong misery, pain and suffering is not as important as avoiding a prescribed sin (I believe Cardinal Newman actually had a rather eloquent quote that I cannot seem to find about how it would be better for the stars to fall and the world to end than a single sin to be committed).

Sadly compassion is irrelevant, it’s all about the law. This topic to it and the reactions surrounding it was one of the reasons I stopped attending church myself.

 

[shelby_sun]

Thank you, I personally agree with you on this matter, but as I’m sure you know, the Catholic church is rarely willing to accept a compromise unless directly forced (such as when the Kingdom of Italy invaded the Papal States).

Lifelong misery, pain and suffering is not as important as avoiding a prescribed sin (I believe Cardinal Newman actually had a rather eloquent quote that I cannot seem to find about how it would be better for the stars to fall and the world to end than a single sin to be committed).

Sadly compassion is irrelevant, it’s all about the law. This topic to it and the reactions surrounding it was one of the reasons I stopped attending church myself.

You are absolutely right. I am very blessed to be in the Catholic community I am in where compassion is still much alive. I hope you too can find a Catholic community like mine someday.

 

[NekoNecro]

You are absolutely right. I am very blessed to be in the Catholic community I am in where compassion is still much alive. I hope you too can find a Catholic community like mine someday.

I hope so too, thank you Shelby sun. I know it might sound silly (especially on here) but it’s really reassured me reading your thoughts on the matter and knowing I’m not alone seeing it this way.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Thank you again for your link; however, no one wants to seem to address the thousands and thousands of children around the world that need to be adopted and who will end up with no family to call there own. Can anyone here even imagine that in their own lives.

Many people who follow this so loyally have never adopted a child. Many of those who gone through the adoption process have a better understanding of many children need good people to love them. The Church needs to really start to look into this issue more. What do you think happens to these kids that never get out of the foster care system. Do you really believe they would have lower self worth being raised by a loving, hard working gay couple who will be there for them the rest of their lives. People need to stat addressing that this is one of those issues that is not getting better and we need to start looking at what situation is worse rather than what is the best possible situation, one that is less and less like to happen.

All to often these days it comes down to doing whatever we can to help a child of God or following the Church. In another post someone asked if we are starting to worship the Church more than God. In cases like this, it is my opinion that that is what is happening.

BTW I always wanted to adopt a child, but after 3 of my own my husband said no.

Quite a few of the kids in foster care can’t legally be adopted as the parents have not relinquished their rights.

 

[NekoNecro]

Quite a few of the kids in foster care can’t legally be adopted as the parents have not relinquished their rights.

That’s true, but there are still plenty of orphans with neither parent alive around

I’d rather seem them with gay parents or only one (in a number of places you need to be married to adopt) than growing up inside an institution without any family support or warmth at all.

 

[Rau]

How can you possibly assert that when Ben did not say which study he was referring to?

There have been several dozen, the vast majority of which have concluded that same sex parents are at least as good as opposite sex ones. The final report of one of the most recent ones, the Australian Study of Child Health in Same-Sex Families, hasn’t even been published yet, so can hardly have been ‘debunked’.

ACHESS Interim Report: mccaugheycentre.unimelb.edu.au/research/current/intergenerational_health/achess

These studies look at observable health and wellbeing measures. On the face of it, I would not expect the study to find a deficiency on these measures which could be attributed to the ‘gayness’ of the parents.

 

[Edward_H]

Homosexual sex is not ordered to the perfection of the spouses.

The morality of an act is determined by whether an act is ordered to perfection; what is the object of the act itself, what is the intention of the actor, what are the circumstances. If any of the three of these are evil, then the action is immoral. It cannot be made good. Killing an innocent is always an evil, no matter the intention, no matter the circumstances.

All our actions should be aiming toward perfection. Our acts can’t go against the “purpose”…that is, the perfected end state…of an object or a person. The end purpose of humans, for instance, isn’t just to live, but to love. So all of our actions should be intended to perfectly love in some way. Our intentions should of course be as void of self gain as possible, and more pure over a lifetime of good struggle against the self. And love in its most perfected form is total self gift. The Crucifix gives us the image of perfect love. Everyday, a bit more love and less self.

The perfected end state of human sexuality is diffusive marital union, spilling out in procreation, which means new opportunity for self-gift, that is love.

 

[Rau]

You are absolutely right. I am very blessed to be in the Catholic community I am in where compassion is still much alive. I hope you too can find a Catholic community like mine someday.

How is compassion manifest in your community?

 

[NekoNecro]

Homosexual sex is not ordered to the perfection of the spouses.

Unless your suggesting we give graphic sex shows to children as part of their bringing, this is entirely irrelevant to the raising of a child. There are heterosexual married men who are impotent, barren women; all of them suffer some flaw in preforming the “natural” sex act.

The sex lives and acts preformed by ones parents, adopted or biological really should not be on the mind of a young child, or anyone of any age.

The morality of an act is determined by whether an act is ordered to perfection; what is the object of the act itself, what is the intention of the actor, what are the circumstances. If any of the three of these are evil, then the action is immoral. It cannot be made good. Killing an innocent is always an evil, no matter the intention, no matter the circumstances.

All our actions should be aiming toward perfection. Our acts can’t go against the “purpose”…that is, the perfected end state…of an object or a person. The end purpose of humans, for instance, isn’t just to live, but to love. So all of our actions should be intended to perfectly love in some way. Our intentions should of course be as void of self gain as possible, and more pure over a lifetime of good struggle against the self. And love in its most perfected form is total self gift. The Crucifix gives us the image of perfect love. Everyday, a bit more love and less self.

The perfected end state of human sexuality is diffusive marital union, spilling out in procreation, which means new opportunity for self-gift, that is love.

It’s a wonderful ideal, but it’s one that cannot be achieved by the majority of people. There are Catholic couples who utterly despise one another who stay together purely because they cannot divorce (Not saying divorce is right or wrong, separate topic) and this “rightly orientated union” serves only to the detriment of the children, I know this to be true, I’ve observed it with my own eyes in my community. The church would still rather see a child brought up by two adults who absolutely loathe one another, create a hostile environment for the child to grow up in and openly wish the other to be dead than a happy married gay couple. This to me, and to any rational person I am sure, is nothing short of insanity.

Then you have the families where the husband is firing blanks so to speak, or the wife can’t actually conceive because she had to have her womb removed due to illness or something. Their sex life is still an aberration and against this “perfect” sexual act but we’re still willing to allow them to adopt.

The sex lives (or lack of one) for an adoptive parent are absolutely irrelevant to the upbringing of a child. If I ever met a parent in real life a parent who thought their sex life had to be rammed right up in their children faces, I’d be calling social services.

 

[Edward_H]

Unless your suggesting we give graphic sex shows to children as part of their bringing, this is entirely irrelevant to the raising of a child. There are heterosexual married men who are impotent, barren women; all of them suffer some flaw in preforming the “natural” sex act.

The sex lives and acts preformed by ones parents, adopted or biological really should not be on the mind of a young child, or anyone of any age.

I have no idea what you’re responding to. Clearly nothing in my point could account for this above.

 

[Edward_H]

It’s a wonderful ideal, but it’s one that cannot be achieved by the majority of people. There are Catholic couples who utterly despise one another who stay together purely because they cannot divorce (Not saying divorce is right or wrong, separate topic) and this “rightly orientated union” serves only to the detriment of the children, I know this to be true, I’ve observed it with my own eyes in my community. The church would still rather see a child brought up by two adults who absolutely loathe one another, create a hostile environment for the child to grow up in and openly wish the other to be dead than a happy married gay couple. This to me, and to any rational person I am sure, is nothing short of insanity.

Then you have the families where the husband is firing blanks so to speak, or the wife can’t actually conceive because she had to have her womb removed due to illness or something. Their sex life is still an aberration and against this “perfect” sexual act but we’re still willing to allow them to adopt.

The sex lives (or lack of one) for an adoptive parent are absolutely irrelevant to the upbringing of a child. If I ever met a parent in real life a parent who thought their sex life had to be rammed right up in their children faces, I’d be calling social services.

A person born with an inability can still pursue the perfection that he/she was given. Many parents found unable to get pregnant have been pleasantly surprised.

 

[Ben_Carmine]

The study you refer to has since been debunked.

No it hasn’t. I never even presented the study, how can you say it’s debunked when you don’t even know which study I’m talking about? I never presented anything.

It was a collection of self-selected friends of the study author, which kills its usefulness. By the way, it also was a small, tiny group, so not particularly useful on this basis either.

Whatever you’re taking about there doesn’t have anything to do with the post you quoted. You simply made up a study I wasn’t talking about and then tore it down, without presenting anything to back it up (which would have been irrelevant anyway because I never presented anything).

Anyway, a quick Google search has shown that there’s many studies going on in at least 3 (US, Canada, Australia) countries. There’s one here that’s been going on for about 25 years. Even checking Wikipedia links to about 60 studies which conclude:

“Scientific research has been generally consistent in showing that gay and lesbian parents are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and their children are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents. Major associations of mental health professionals in the U.S., Canada, and Australia have not identified credible empirical research that suggests otherwise.”

Anyway, how many "bad parents’ are going to spend the energy to participate? or wish to? Obviously the political willpower to prove a point is at play.

So it goes.

What? Studies are based on evidence. You can’t use a lack of evidence to suggest “political willpower”, that doesn’t make any sense.

 

[NekoNecro]

I have no idea what you’re responding to. Clearly nothing in my point could account for this above.

Facepalm Terribly sorry! Yes, this was aimed at another comment above (which seems to have vanished for some reason. I copied and pasted the wrong quote section, my mistake!

A person born with an inability can still pursue the perfection that he/she was given. Many parents found unable to get pregnant have been pleasantly surprised.

I’m sure some of them do, but there are many cases where the man lacks functioning testicles or where a woman lacks a womb(cancer being the most common cause) where there is absolutely no chance, zero percent of a conception occurring. Unless by some miracle an egg cell spawns inside her intestines and she somehow manages to not only fertalise it but carry it to term too.

Sometimes it’s a medical impossibility, but the Church is still willing to let them raise children and engage in intercourse. It’s a double standard.