Gay Marriage

[Durnford]

I am sorry it is incoherent to you but that is because you are assuming that these couple are sleeping together which would be separating themselves from God. Are telling me that you truly believe that there are that many Catholic married heterosexual couples that are abstaining or using NFP if they are done having children; that they are not having sex for pure pleasure or closeness, which I believe still goes against Church teachings or has that changed? I have never known of anyone of the people I went to Catholic school with that did either one of those. But if you believe their are some that do, then you can surely believe their are gay couples that do also. Who are you to just assume anyone is sleeping with anyone just because they live together. You judge them will at knowledge of what goes on in their life. I had to Aunts that never left each others side. They never married and I have no idea what they did when I wasn’t around, but I am sure that their were people that questioned their lives together. That is not right.

I don’t believe the Church should have to change their teachings for anyone unless those with more wisdom and grace than I have feel it is the best interest and welling for Catholics as a whole. Nor do I just assume someone is a sinner or living a life that separates them from God without a longtime personal relationship with them.

I will say this yet again on this site, as our priest (our married priest) said on Easter Sunday. We first need to fix ourselves, as we are all sinners, before we go around trying to fix all the other sinners of the world. And because we are mostly likely to sin everyday by not liking someone, being rude, having negative thoughts or words towards others, extra, who should be to busy righting are own wrongs than focusing on others.

When I hear people say we are to go out teach others, those are the people that don’t want to deal with the sinner they are themselves. Do you even know a gay couple? Do you ask them if they are sleeping together? Or are you just assuming?

Two gays living together and not having anal sex. That would be rather uncommon by the sounds of things

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Two gays living together and not having anal sex. That would be rather uncommon by the sounds of things

Actually, I doubt that would be all that uncommon, since a lot of gay people (like a lot of straight people) just don’t like anal sex. But two gay people living together in complete chastity would be rare.

 

[Durnford]

Actually, I doubt that would be all that uncommon, since a lot of gay people (like a lot of straight people) just don’t like anal sex. But two gay people living together in complete chastity would be rare.

I would not know so I will have to take your word for it. Whether they are or not the term same sex marriage is meaningless.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I would not know so I will have to take your word for it.

Yeah, it would probably be a little strange and unwise to do research.

 

[shelby_sun]

It is not a question of whether a same sex couple is having some variety of sex or not. As noted in post #154, the Catholic position is that same sex unions should never be treated as analogous to marriage in any way. The problem is in the relationship itself.

There might be same sex roommates who are nothing but roommates. No one would surmise they were having sex. But neither would one recommend them as adoptive parents, just because the living situation is not that of a family. With a same sex couple who are pretending to be married, having sex is not the issue. The relationship is the issue. One does not treat such a union as equivalent to a family unit.

I am sorry if you have been interpreting my post as saying I think that there are better circumstances having children being raised with a mother and a father married in a healthy loving relationship, I have never said that; however, people want to ignore the fact that there are thousand of children out their with no true families. What does is the Catholic Church doing about that? Have any of you in adopted a child in need. I had always planned to do so but after three children of my own my husband simply said no. No one has good answers for this. They just want to dismiss it. It is you people that make child of single parents and divorced parent not welcome in the Catholic Church, which I speak from experience, but go for you for knowing what’s right.

 

[shelby_sun]

After being on some of these post from time to time, it never fails that I question whether to stay in the Catholic Church after hearing what many of you have to say. It would not surprise me if you lead more people to leave the church than to join it.

Luckily, the all the priest I work with make me feel much better about my faith and they continue to tell me to stay away from this site. I check back to see if it ever changes, but it just doesn’t.

I will stick with my very old, wise Catholic priests, that are more Christ like than any of us could ever hope to be.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I agree, but couldn’t come up with a good reason without bringing religion into it, so I dropped the subject. I knew if I brought religion into it she’d argue that not everybody believes I do.

Ask her if it’s common sense for a man to marry a man. Ask her to point to any other civilization in the history of the world that thought it was common sense. Ask her if common sense any longer matters. Ask her if it is not possible that ours is the first civilization to have compleyely lost its common sense in so many different ways. Killing the unborn, children killing children, same-sex marriage, etc.

 

[Rau]

… It is you people that make child of single parents and divorced parent not welcome in the Catholic Church, which I speak from experience, but good for you for knowing what’s right.

Pretty amazing statement about “us”. My mom was divorced and never had the slightest issue from the Church. On what basis would “we” look down on a child for the actions of his parent? If you see these things happen, do something about it . “We” will support you.

 

[shelby_sun]

Ask her if it’s common sense for a man to marry a man. Ask her to point to any other civilization in the history of the world that thought it was common sense. Ask her if common sense any longer matters. Ask her if it is not possible that ours is the first civilization to have compleyely lost its common sense in so many different ways. Killing the unborn, children killing children, same-sex marriage, etc.

Whether you agree with gay marriage, gay unions, homosexuality at all people need to stop comparing it to murder. Like I said my husband has worked in a major crime lab for over 29 year and you can simply not associate the two in anyway at all.

Is it common sense for families with a mother and a father to have 7, 8, 9 children when they simply cannot afford them? Does it make sense for a man and a women who are married with mental illness in their family to go on and have children? Does it make sense for a married woman risk her life and the life of her unborn baby because she has a dangerous pre-known condition?These are things you can compare it too, but not murder.That is just going to far.

Why not compare it to leaving the children in a foster home with a mother and a father who molesting them or starving them, or beating them. Much more relevant and much more common than should happen…

 

[JimG]

I am sorry if you have been interpreting my post as saying I think that there are better circumstances having children being raised with a mother and a father married in a healthy loving relationship, I have never said that; however, people want to ignore the fact that there are thousand of children out their with no true families. What does is the Catholic Church doing about that? Have any of you in adopted a child in need. I had always planned to do so but after three children of my own my husband simply said no. No one has good answers for this. They just want to dismiss it. It is you people that make child of single parents and divorced parent not welcome in the Catholic Church, which I speak from experience, but go for you for knowing what’s right.

There are many single and divorced parents within the Catholic Church. Often, their children attend Catholic schools and receive the sacraments at their parish. There are homosexual persons within the Catholic Church who are welcomed as members of a parish. Catholic Charities in many if not most dioceses, have adoption agencies as well as other social service organizations. Some Catholic adoption agencies have had to close down rather than accept a state demand to place children for adoption with same sex couples. Of course it is not always possible to place children in ideal circumstances, but Catholic adoption agencies cannot by their own moral standards place children with gay couples who hold themselves out as the equivalent of married persons. One cannot solve the problems of children by placing them in a home which has a disordered relationship at its base. It is possible that a same sex couple might be celibate for life, but in that case they should not hold themselves out as married or as partners in a civil union.

 

[shelby_sun]

There are many single and divorced parents within the Catholic Church. Often, their children attend Catholic schools and receive the sacraments at their parish. There are homosexual persons within the Catholic Church who are welcomed as members of a parish. Catholic Charities in many if not most dioceses, have adoption agencies as well as other social service organizations. Some Catholic adoption agencies have had to close down rather than accept a state demand to place children for adoption with same sex couples. Of course it is not always possible to place children in ideal circumstances, but Catholic adoption agencies cannot by their own moral standards place children with gay couples who hold themselves out as the equivalent of married persons. One cannot solve the problems of children by placing them in a home which has a disordered relationship at its base. It is possible that a same sex couple might be celibate for life, but in that case they should not hold themselves out as married or as partners in a civil union.

Please note that I have never said or implied that any Catholic service or church should ever participate in same sex adoptions! I am not seek a change in the Churches teachings in this matter in any way at all. The Church should not have a say in the civil adoptions as that crosses over separation of church and state, which is as bad for the church as it is for our government.

No, it is getting more rare to find ideal circumstances placing children who need adopting and as of yet I have heard no mention of how to better these situation, a topic which is always dismissed on this site because no one can come up with other good options.

As asked in another forum, the line to worshiping the Church over God gets very fine at times. The God I was raised with would much rather have a child placed into a loving home with extend family to love them and support them for the rest of their life, even a gay union couple, rather to leave it with no family at all. Again if you have no experience with either, you are just speculating and giving your opinion. There are many more heterosexual married couples with very disordered relationship. Should we pull all those children out of their homes and put them in the foster system? I fully admit I do not have a PhD. on this matter, but much both my sociology degree and pych. degree covered this topic quite well plus what I have learn through my husband s work.

 

[JimG]

I have to agree that families are becoming more and more disordered. I only say that one ought not choose to place children in a disordered situation. In some places there is an out of wedlock pregnancy rate of 70%; the national average is over 40%; that is truly a disaster for children. The only solution for that is to follow Christian moral principles in the first place. One cannot correct it by accepting yet another moral disorder as a solution to the first. The only answer is to reverse the collapse of the family, and I don’t know if that is humanly possible.

 

[Rau]

… The Church should not have a say in the civil adoptions as that crosses over separation of church and state, which is as bad for the church as it is for our government…

Church/state separation is not the issue - it’s a red herring. In a democracy, the Church (ie. Catholics) get the same right to have their say as everyone else. No one suggested the Church should have any control over “civil adoptions”. Only that the Church need not run such an agency if the State’s laws controlling same would compel the Church to act against its conscience.

 

[shelby_sun]

Church/state separation is not the issue - it’s a red herring. In a democracy, the Church (ie. Catholics) get the same right to have their say as everyone else. No one suggested the Church should have any control over “civil adoptions”. Only that the Church need not run such an agency if the State’s laws controlling same would compel the Church to act against its conscience.

If you read and posted my entire post you would have seen I started with just that point! Please read again.

I have NEVER said that the Church should promote, accept, or be involved in any gay unions, or gay couples adopting. I understand that they do not want to baptize those children; although, I do not believe that is what Christ would do as the child should not suffer for the sins of their parents or society, I fully understand its teaching. I am not disputing the Catholic Church stance. Even though I do not disagree with civil unions or those couples adopting a child in need. Please do not confuse the two.

 

[shelby_sun]

I have to agree that families are becoming more and more disordered. I only say that one ought not choose to place children in a disordered situation. In some places there is an out of wedlock pregnancy rate of 70%; the national average is over 40%; that is truly a disaster for children. The only solution for that is to follow Christian moral principles in the first place. One cannot correct it by accepting yet another moral disorder as a solution to the first. The only answer is to reverse the collapse of the family, and I don’t know if that is humanly possible.

You are right. Our world has come to making decisions over which is the less of two evils or bad situations. Does a man and a woman divorce to possible find hope and happiness or stay in a unhappy, depressing situation, greatly damaging their children? Does one keep a child conceived out of wedlock or rick giving up for adoption to a man and a woman who may or may not stay married?

I think the Church will soon need to address how to best handle these “less of two evil” situations that are happening more and more in this world. People will not like some of what might be decided, but by not at least opening up discussion among those high up in the church they are simply neglecting a very fast growing population in their Church, issues that are simply not going to go away.

I truly believe the only way to get back to that solid healthy family unit you speak of will take the second coming of Christ.

 

[Rau]

If you read and posted my entire post you would have seen I started with just that point! Please read again.

I have NEVER said that the Church should promote, accept, or be involved in any gay unions, or gay couples adopting. I understand that they do not want to baptize those children; although, I do not believe that is what Christ would do as the child should not suffer for the sins of their parents or society, I fully understand its teaching. I am not disputing the Catholic Church stance. Even though I do not disagree with civil unions or those couples adopting a child in need. Please do not confuse the two.

My comments were directed at your reference to church/state separation, which is an irrelevance in this debate, and to your statement that Church should have no say over civil adoptions - with which I think we all agree (except that the church is free to express opinions). And I did not accuse you of saying anything - I stated a position.

The church will welcome and baptise any child for whom baptism is requested if the child has a fair chance of being brought up in the Catholic faith. This is what the priest is to assess. The church will baptise any older person who, in good faith, seeks it for themselves and undertakes the study program.

 

[Nacho45]

If you read and posted my entire post you would have seen I started with just that point! Please read again.

I have NEVER said that the Church should promote, accept, or be involved in any gay unions, or gay couples adopting. I understand that they do not want to baptize those children; although, I do not believe that is what Christ would do as the child should not suffer for the sins of their parents or society, I fully understand its teaching. I am not disputing the Catholic Church stance. Even though I do not disagree with civil unions or those couples adopting a child in need. Please do not confuse the two.

There are several examples in scripture of a persons sins being carried to their children and grand children. We must make the right choices with the understanding it can very well harm our children and theirs as well.

 

[shelby_sun]

There are several examples in scripture of a persons sins being carried to their children and grand children. We must make the right choices with the understanding it can very well harm our children and theirs as well.

Is that the present teaching of the Church? I thought sin had to come from the knowledge of an individual to know and understand what sins is and choose to do it anyway. How can an unborn person do that?

Does anyone know if that is the teaching of the Church today?

 

[shelby_sun]

My comments were directed at your reference to church/state separation, which is an irrelevance in this debate, and to your statement that Church should have no say over civil adoptions - with which I think we all agree (except that the church is free to express opinions). And I did not accuse you of saying anything - I stated a position.

The church will welcome and baptise any child for whom baptism is requested if the child has a fair chance of being brought up in the Catholic faith. This is what the priest is to assess. The church will baptise any older person who, in good faith, seeks it for themselves and undertakes the study program.

OK from another post, if a gay couple in a civil union has a baby through whatever means, will the Church baptize that child. Say the couple goes to Church every Sunday and Holy day, practices their faith and teaches it to their child, does the Church assume they are not having any physical relations and baptized their child. Many think that should not happen. I am not one of those people.

 

[Rau]

OK from another post, if a gay couple in a civil union has a baby through whatever means, will the Church baptize that child. Say the couple goes to Church every Sunday and Holy day, practices their faith and teaches it to their child, does the Church assume they are not having any physical relations and baptized their child. Many think that should not happen. I am not one of those people.

We are all incapable of answering the question from afar. The fact that the parents may be sinners is not what determines the matter. The priest must decide whether there is a fair chance that the child will be brought up in the catholic faith. Do you agree that that is a proper basis for the priest’s decision?