Gay Men's Chorus to perform in Catholic parish in San Francisco

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Of course being “gay” would identify who they are. They are a group of people that have historically been ostracized from society because of being gay.

How would you feel if you were born different from how society told you you should be? Suppose hypothetically that everyone felt that being blind was intrinsically disordered (not the way God intended eyes to function) and yet you were born blind. Suppose you felt shunned from society because of your blindness. Don’t you think you’d seek a supportive community in which other people suffered the same affliction as you? Perhaps you might even consider joining the Blind Choir so that people might recognize that, yes, you are blind, but you have other good in you too that can be shared with the world, and you should be valued rather than looked at as nothing more than an intrinsic disorder.
 
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So we can expect gay choruses to disappear since homosexuality is now widely accepted? I’m actually surprised one still exists in SFO when it has been widely accepted there for years. Or maybe the bond is really due to their sexual interests.
 
First of all, I would hardly say homosexuality is “widely accepted.” If it was, there wouldn’t be this discussion.

Second, by your logic, the civil rights movement is over and black people are “widely accepted,” so there should be no more need for black support groups - or black choirs.

I do hope that in time we won’t have a need for any of these labels and we can all be members of humanity, but I think we are at least a couple generations away from that being a reality.
 
It’s not only now widely accepted. It is now a badge of honor. Celebrated with parades, promoted in the media and culture.

Historically ostracized? I don’t know. Growing up in the 1970s there was a gay couple in my neighborhood and gays in my best friend’s neighborhood and they were treated like everyone else. Back then you could even joke around with them about it. They weren’t out marching and bringing attention to themselves. Not that all or most gays do this today. But if a lifestyle is constantly promoted eventually people will conclude that if they keep pushing their difference then ok let’s give them what they want and acknowledge their difference. Coverserly if they just go about their business like everyone else (and most gays) most people wouldn’t even notice or care what their lifestyle is.
 
It seems to me then that the bigger problem is the media stirring up any perceived controversy. Then people accept what the media says and respond accordingly. So long as the media promotes that people disapprove of homosexuality, there will always be gay support groups. (Edited to add: celebrating gay pride parades on the media leads people to believe that there is a reason they should be celebrated, which I believe people understand to be discrimination against homosexuals.)
 
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Someone already mentioned that the chorus we’re talking about started off their program with something commemorating people who had died of AIDS. Next year, a lot of gay men’s choruses are going to have programs that commemorate Stonewall. Do you thing that the average “Men’s Chorus” would be singing about these kinds of things? If people went to what they thought was just a “men’s chorus” and heard a lot of songs about Stonewall, they might be surprised.
 
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It’s both.

As I mentioned above, I found something online about the Catholic Community Choir. Their mission statement says, “With faith and fun at the core, CCC strives to provide unique and engaging experiences focused on performing arts, service and ministry.” So, in their case, is it about the music/choir or the fact that those in the choir are Catholic or that they sing music that has a Catholic message? Why didn’t they just call themselves, “The Community Choir”?
 
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What about the Catholic Bar Association. Why not just call themselves, “the Bar Association”? Or what about Catholic War Veterans which is described as "a national service organization of baptized Catholics that have served or are currently serving in the United States Armed Forces? Why not just call themselves, “War Veterans”?
 
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I just don’t understand why people take exception to putting the word “gay” in front of the name of a chorus when lots of other religious, ethnic, cultural and national groups identify themselves in the names of their organizations. I don’t know of any big choruses that perform in many different venues that call themselves nothing more than “Men’s Chorus”.
 
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I’d say people would take exception because various different sub groups within the groups you mention identify themselves by putting their names in front of their organizations. But you would never have a group based on sexual preference calling itself a straight men’s chorus. So the thinking is why distinguish for sexual preference and have gay men’s chorus designation.
 
Thorolfr said:
What about the Catholic Bar Association. Why not just call themselves, “the Bar Association”? Or what about Catholic War Veterans which is described as "a national service organization of baptized Catholics that have served or are currently serving in the United States Armed Forces? Why not just call themselves, “War Veterans”?
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And this is exactly why the argument that “it’s just men singing” doesn’t hold water, and can’t be used to justify why this particular choir can sing in a church without causing scandal. Just like Catholic War Veterans presumably share the same values and stand for something, the gay men’s choir as a group presumably stand for normalizing the active gay lifestyle (not chastity). So when they sing in a church, they bring this message with them, not just their music.
 
MrsK0224 said:
Of course being “gay” would identify who they are. They are a group of people that have historically been ostracized from society because of being gay.

How would you feel if you were born different from how society told you you should be? Suppose hypothetically that everyone felt that being blind was intrinsically disordered (not the way God intended eyes to function) and yet you were born blind. Suppose you felt shunned from society because of your blindness. Don’t you think you’d seek a supportive community in which other people suffered the same affliction as you?
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A better analogy would be for example a mental disorder that makes anger management difficult and causes anger or even violent outbursts - let’s say ADD, bipolar or even schizophrenia. People with these conditions must accept that breaking things when angry is not a normal way to live just because they were “born this way.” No support group would encourage them to act on their impulses because that’s the way they are. They would instead work on managing their anger in a socially acceptable way. My son has ADD and has been learning this very lesson since he was a kid.

Why then do we consider it ok for gay people to support each other in acting on their impulses?
 
LisaB said:
A better analogy would be for example a mental disorder that makes anger management difficult and causes anger or even violent outbursts - let’s say ADD, bipolar or even schizophrenia. People with these conditions must accept that breaking things when angry is not a normal way to live just because they were “born this way.” No support group would encourage them to act on their impulses because that’s the way they are. They would instead work on managing their anger in a socially acceptable way. My son has ADD and has been learning this very lesson since he was a kid.

Why then do we consider it ok for gay people to support each other in acting on their impulses?
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This doesn’t seem like a very good analogy to me. I’m gay and I also have ADHD but there is an important difference between the two.

ADHD pervades almost every area of my life and I deal with it every day in terms of my ability to stay organized, get things done and not get side-tracked, read a book, remember things that I need to do, pay attention, etc. I constantly loose things and lose track of my time. It has had a major impact on my ability to function and even on my ability to maintain relationships with other people, especially when I wasn’t taking medication for it.

Being gay, on the other hand, doesn’t have anywhere near the same kind of impact and that’s one of the reasons why it’s not considered to be a mental disorder any more. Most gay folks can function quite well in society, and many have successful careers, good paying jobs, lots of friends, etc. I just saw on the news that Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple came out and said that he’s gay. One of the criteria for being diagnosed for most mental disorders is that they must significantly impair someone’s ability to function and being gay doesn’t meet that criteria in most cases.
 
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That wasn’t my point. My point was that being gay doesn’t justify a homosexual relationship any more than having ADD justifies putting a hole in the wall every time something doesn’t go your way. Just because one has certain inclinations doesn’t mean he has the right to act on them. A gay men’s choir is like a support group that teaches ADD patients that since they were born this way, it’s ok to act on their impulses. Because I don’t believe for a minute that the group is about supporting each other in living chastely.

As an aside, I hope you are getting help for your ADHD. Meds have made such a huge difference for my son, I wish we started sooner.
 
I have known men for years who sing in the SF Gay Men’s Chorus, and even though they have sung in Catholic churches before (Most Holy Redeemer in the Castro for one), being able to sing in St Ignatius is a turning point. It is a large church, beautiful, excellent acoustics, and the venue for hundreds of secular concerts throughout the years. The Chorus was not allowed to sing there until last week. And then they were issued an invitation. It was a very poignant moment.

As you can imagine, there are groups that come together to sing for many reasons, one of them, of course, to make music together. The Gay Men’s Chorus was created to form community during a time when so many of them were dying of AIDS. It gave hope to many, a sense of community to all, and a way to create beauty together when beauty was hard to come by.

These days, after 40 years, we can celebrate with a second or even third generation of men who sing for us. I always attend their concerts. Excellent music and excellent fellowship. Thank you, St Ignatius, for opening your doors after all this time.
 
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Neither the bar nor the veterans are an institution which adheres to a set of beliefs about ‘Catholicism’ and it’s behaviors which contradict their belief system. They are not that type of organization so the analogy is off. If the bar and veterans held a philosophy at odds with Catholicism and there comes along a group proudly labeling themselves as having Catholic behaviors for example which are contrary to their core beliefs perhaps they should just call themselves the Bar or Veteran Association.
 
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Including the Gay Men’s Chorus is a good step forward for the Catholic Church. Let’s all embrace the Church’s new inclusive mentality and hold hands as brothers. Love Wins!
 
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