IMHO I think it has to do with why this man identifies himself as “gay”. I do not run around telling everyone I am a heterosexual. Yes, it is part of my life but it is not my whole life. Sexuality is a part of our life but to have that as the defining aspect of our life is disordered.I don’t understand why a gay person can’t become a priest. If he is a very spiritual person and would be chaste and celibate if he were to be ordained, then why not? If denied to the priesthood, he would be forced to live the rest of his life single anyway, as he cannot get married.
It’s like you read my mind.IMHO I think it has to do with why this man identifies himself as “gay”. I do not run around telling everyone I am a heterosexual. Yes, it is part of my life but it is not my whole life. Sexuality is a part of our life but to have that as the defining aspect of our life is disordered.
No one should ever call themselves a “gay” priest just as no one should ever call themselves a “heterosexual” priest.
I believe the current guidelines state that a man who suffers from same-sex-attraction (SSA) is chaste for a number of years that he can be considered for the priesthood.
A man willing to giving up a life of homo or hetero sin is good enough for me. I really don’t see how stating one situation is more of a sacrifice than the other helps anything. Using that logic, a boy who wanted to be a priest since childhood gives up nothing either.One of the arguments against allowing them to be ordained, though, is that they are really giving nothing up when they are ordained. . . . . .
So all single men are called to be chaste no matter what their sexual orientation is and the Catholic Church says that marriage can only happen between a man and a woman, a man who suffers from SSA can never get married then his celibacy is not the same sacrifice of a heterosexual male.
Thank You. One of the most insightful messages I have read on these forums.IMHO I think it has to do with why this man identifies himself as “gay”. I do not run around telling everyone I am a heterosexual. Yes, it is part of my life but it is not my whole life. Sexuality is a part of our life but to have that as the defining aspect of our life is disordered.
No one should ever call themselves a “gay” priest just as no one should ever call themselves a “heterosexual” priest.
I believe the current guidelines state that a man who suffers from same-sex-attraction (SSA) is chaste for a number of years that he can be considered for the priesthood.
One of the arguments against allowing them to be ordained, though, is that they are really giving nothing up when they are ordained.
Being celibate means that one will never marry.
Being chaste means that we live according to our station in life, for a single person that means no sex.
So all single men are called to be chaste no matter what their sexual orientation is and the Catholic Church says that marriage can only happen between a man and a woman, a man who suffers from SSA can never get married then his celibacy is not the same sacrifice of a heterosexual male.
All they are giving up is something that they shouldn’t be doing anyways.
I believe you are right about this policy. This is the exact same policy taken by Pope St. Leo IX during a similarly (but more widespread) scandalous period. St. Peter Damien wrote a book (City of Gomorrah) outlining all the problems and calling for very, very strict measures. He submitted it to St. Leo IX and the Pope praised the work, but rejected the strictiest measures that were proposed and instead opted for more compassionate ones (of course, St. Peter Damien humbly accepted them.)I believe the current guidelines state that a man who suffers from same-sex-attraction (SSA) is chaste for a number of years that he can be considered for the priesthood.
This stat has to be wrong or at best it is nonsense as there is a margin of error of 55% in it. A study with a margin of error of ±5% is thought to be a little on the large side.I once read a stat that stated that between 25-80% (a weird stat, I know) of priests are gay (or have SSA). If this stat is correct, the priest shortage would be in a more dire state than it is now.
Its not my argument but I do see some merit in it.In my opinion the “he’s not sacrificing anything good” argument is a terrible argument.
Correct, the essence of the priesthood is not to give something up but part of the essence of the priesthood (and religious life) is sacrifice.The essence of the priesthood is not to give something up. Perhaps that argument could be made for religious life, but celibacy is NOT the essence of the priesthood. Eastern Rite priests get married. The promise of celibacy came later in history.
Again, I think it does have merit, especially in the Latin Church where celibacy is a requirement of all priests, secular and religious.Saying a gay man shouldnt be a priest because he is not giving something that would otherwise be allowed makes no sense as “giving something up” is not the nature of the priesthood. Priest’s, strictly speaking, don’t have to (like married eastern rite priests). Religious life, maybe (though they still would be giving up private property). But the priesthood, no, it’s a bad argument.
I think this would be very hard to do with the psychological testing that is required today.If a Priest has SSA, couldn’t he just go through ordination without telling anyone, as long as no impure thoughts arise?
I don’t imagine it’d be hard. I have no doubt a gay man can be among other men without uncontrollable feelings of lust. Just like a straight guy can go to a convent and not try to do unfortunate things with the nuns…I wonder how hard it would be for a man w/ SSA to spend years in an all male seminary and live in a rectory w/ other men. —KCT
Could you get me the JPII material you base your thoughts on and the studies that show all of the claims you make?I realize this is extremely “politically incorrect”, and psychologists would deny it now, since pressure from homosexuals on the psychological community has caused homosexuality to be removed as a psychologicial disorder from the DSM.
However, since JPII said that homosexuality is “fundamentally disordered”, I don’t feel too alone on the receiving end of the firing range.
Would we be saying that psychopathic men should be priests, so long as they restrain their urges to, say, shoot people at random from rooftops or become serial killers? No, we would say the Church ought not to take a chance with something like that. Are homosexuals in as good control of their sexual urges as are heterosexuals? (understanding, of course that some heterosexuals are not) The statistics don’t seem to bear it out, since homosexuals typically have vastly more sexual partners than do heterosexuals, and engage in riskier behavior. Also, the majority of homosexual males have, at some time in their adult lives, had sexual contact with underage males; something that is not true of heterosexuals. There is just something wrong with that picture. Besides being high risk behavior, it is predatory. In addition, a majority of homosexual abusers of the young have, themselves, been sexually abused by homosexuals while young; something, again, that is not true of heterosexuals. Some studies, at least, say that the incidence of homosexuality among priests is little different than it is in the society at large. Yet the overwhelming majority of the abuse cases are by homosexual priests against adolescent males and young men, not by heterosexual priests against females of any age. It is generally acknowledged that pedophiles cannot be “cured”. Well, but most of the priest abuse cases were not cases of pedophilia. Most of the abusers, did it again and again; sometimes after “treatment”. So is homosexual predation on adolescent males and young men equally “incurable”. The statistics strongly suggest it. Since this society, and particularly the psychology world has, in effect, forbidden itself from studying homosexuality in any meaningful way, to try to get to answers to things like that, we’re just left to consider the differences in things homosexuals and heterosexuals seem to manifest, based on what little is known about homosexual behavior.
Wouldn’t be that hard for me. I’ve been residing with men my whole life, went to an all-boys high shcool and have never once acted out my ssa.I wonder how hard it would be for a man w/ SSA to spend years in an all male seminary and live in a rectory w/ other men. —KCT
I believe the vast majority of homosexual males simply don’t tell anyone and live a quiet single celibate life. Not all homosexuals are potential pedophiles, just as not all mentally ill are potential criminals. I do feel sorry fro your point of view but it is not factual.I realize this is extremely “politically incorrect”, and psychologists would deny it now, since pressure from homosexuals on the psychological community has caused homosexuality to be removed as a psychologicial disorder from the DSM.
However, since JPII said that homosexuality is “fundamentally disordered”, I don’t feel too alone on the receiving end of the firing range.
Would we be saying that psychopathic men should be priests, so long as they restrain their urges to, say, shoot people at random from rooftops or become serial killers? No, we would say the Church ought not to take a chance with something like that. Are homosexuals in as good control of their sexual urges as are heterosexuals? (understanding, of course that some heterosexuals are not) The statistics don’t seem to bear it out, since homosexuals typically have vastly more sexual partners than do heterosexuals, and engage in riskier behavior. Also, the majority of homosexual males have, at some time in their adult lives, had sexual contact with underage males; something that is not true of heterosexuals. There is just something wrong with that picture. Besides being high risk behavior, it is predatory. In addition, a majority of homosexual abusers of the young have, themselves, been sexually abused by homosexuals while young; something, again, that is not true of heterosexuals. Some studies, at least, say that the incidence of homosexuality among priests is little different than it is in the society at large. Yet the overwhelming majority of the abuse cases are by homosexual priests against adolescent males and young men, not by heterosexual priests against females of any age. It is generally acknowledged that pedophiles cannot be “cured”. Well, but most of the priest abuse cases were not cases of pedophilia. Most of the abusers, did it again and again; sometimes after “treatment”. So is homosexual predation on adolescent males and young men equally “incurable”. The statistics strongly suggest it. Since this society, and particularly the psychology world has, in effect, forbidden itself from studying homosexuality in any meaningful way, to try to get to answers to things like that, we’re just left to consider the differences in things homosexuals and heterosexuals seem to manifest, based on what little is known about homosexual behavior.
Knowing what some studies have shown, I would personally not allow a young grandson of mine to be alone in the company of anyone I knew to be homosexual, or suspected of being homosexual, no matter what. Absolutely no matter what. I do not owe that much to the politics of gender, nor does my grandson. Nor does the Church.
What on earth makes you think most homosexual males live a celibate life? Statistics show that most don’t, though I suppose many homosexual might by lying to those who do the studies.I believe the vast majority of homosexual males simply don’t tell anyone and live a quiet single celibate life. Not all homosexuals are potential pedophiles, just as not all mentally ill are potential criminals. I do feel sorry fro your point of view but it is not factual.
I suggest Fr. Groeschel’s “The Courage To Be Chaste” as reading material. He has worked extensively in this area and states the same thing I do. Many, if not most, Homosexual persons choose not to marry and live single celibate lives. To assume that the voices of the militant gay agenda represent the lives of all homosexuals would be the same mistake as saying NOW represents all women.What on earth makes you think most homosexual males live a celibate life? Statistics show that most don’t, though I suppose many homosexual might by lying to those who do the studies.
I think it would be enlightening to read the findings of the John Jay studies, and I encourage you to do so.
But the real point here is this. Against the background of the “priest abuse scandals”, virtually all of the perpetrators of which were homosexual (read the study) how willing should you or I be to expose your son, mine or someone else’s to the potential danger just because you don’t KNOW that a particular homosexual priest will remain resistant to a temptation that clearly seems stronger with homosexuals than with heterosexuals. I don’t think any of us has the right to risk sacrificing young people for the sake of politically correct notions that have absolutely no objective underpinning.