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goofyjim
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And besides unless he is making an issue of it by not being celibate or supporting certain rights, how can you tell someone is homosexual? Do you have superpowers of insight?
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scylla
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By supposing figures you can never come up to a definite conclusion.
We can go with studies and come up with percentages but this has no effect on what is right.
There are probably many holy people who have maintained a chaste life, now to not maintain a chaste life is to fall into sin.
We do not want people who identify themselves with a tendancy to fall into certain sins to be ordained. Just as a person who identifies himself as a drunkard but maintains struggle to maintain sobriety shouldn’t be allowed in the seminary, someone who identifies themselves with a tendancy toward a lifestyle incompatible with the Priesthood shouldn’t apply.
This applies with those who identify themselves as Gay, Gamblers, Porn addict, Glutton, etc…
Now if they identify themselves as a man who seeks the will of God then they should be considered. But to first label yourself as a certain category instead of “man seeking God’s will” or something similar is a big red flag.
In Christ,
Scylla
We can go with studies and come up with percentages but this has no effect on what is right.
There are probably many holy people who have maintained a chaste life, now to not maintain a chaste life is to fall into sin.
We do not want people who identify themselves with a tendancy to fall into certain sins to be ordained. Just as a person who identifies himself as a drunkard but maintains struggle to maintain sobriety shouldn’t be allowed in the seminary, someone who identifies themselves with a tendancy toward a lifestyle incompatible with the Priesthood shouldn’t apply.
This applies with those who identify themselves as Gay, Gamblers, Porn addict, Glutton, etc…
Now if they identify themselves as a man who seeks the will of God then they should be considered. But to first label yourself as a certain category instead of “man seeking God’s will” or something similar is a big red flag.
In Christ,
Scylla
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goofyjim
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Agreed that those who identify as anything else other than a man of God should not go in. But even our present Holy Father has decided that even if a man has ssa and is not in any relationship and is not pushing the agenda, he doesnot need to be ruled out of eligibility for the priesthood. Sounds liberal compared to some but I accept it.
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Ridgerunner
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I admitted in advance that I am not “politically correct”. I’m sorry, and I respect the Holy Father, but I don’t think it is up to me to risk young males with people who are sexually attracted to them, and many of whom have amply demonstrated that they do not resist the temptation. To me, when the overwhelming majority of the “priest sexual abuse” cases are perpetrated by homosexuals, I do not think it is a risk worth taking.
I also respect Fr. Groeschel, and I am sure he has experienced what he has experienced. I would question whether most homosexuals who have no intention of changing or being celibate go to Fr. Groeschel. Certainly, many of the priests charged with sexual abuse demonstrated that they had no intention of either being celibate or changing.
Again, I just don’t feel I have any right to favor increasing the risk to young people when the evidence concerning that risk is not at all encouraging.
I also respect Fr. Groeschel, and I am sure he has experienced what he has experienced. I would question whether most homosexuals who have no intention of changing or being celibate go to Fr. Groeschel. Certainly, many of the priests charged with sexual abuse demonstrated that they had no intention of either being celibate or changing.
Again, I just don’t feel I have any right to favor increasing the risk to young people when the evidence concerning that risk is not at all encouraging.
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Ridgerunner
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Just to balance this out. If someone admitted, going into the seminary, that he had a sexual attraction to prepubescent females, but wanted to be celibate, and had been consistently celibate, and wasn’t pushing an agenda favoring sex with underage females, I would not favor his admission either.
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goofyjim
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The issue being addressed in this thread is not whether or not the candidate for priesthood has an attraction to prepubescent males. It is whether he has an attraction to adult males. Please separate the two ideas. The Pope certainly has.
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goofyjim
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And homosexual males are not all attracted to young males. Stop equating homosexuality with pedophilia.
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archangel63
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That’s mean. How about they are giving up sin, and a totally secularized gay lifestyle for God. For most gay men that is a quite a miracle in itself. Actually, it takes quite an act of God to turn a gay man away from his lusts.
I thought being celibate meant not having sex with “anybody” at all? Married or single.
I thought being chaste meant no sex at all and no masturbation either. Are you telling me that a priest who takes a vow of chastity is given slack on masturbating?
That’s garbage. I’m gay and I’m celibate. It’s a sacrifice, trust me.
This can also be said about the vast majority of straight men who are drawn to women because they want a piece of *** or just want to get laid. Remember 50% of marriages end in divorce. What starts in the flesh, ends in the flesh.
I’m not trying to be rude, but you need to step down off your pedestal for a moment and put yourself in someone else’s shoes. I no longer live an active homosexual lifestyle. The Holy Spirit showed me the Truth about it. But you have no idea what this Cross is like (homosexuality) until you carry it.
Peace my friend.
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Kevin42
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I don’t necessarily agree with ByzCath completely, but I do understand his point, and I think it is fair to introduce this argument for debate. He is not saying that SSA is not a difficult cross to deal with, he is just saying that its the sin that is being sacrificed, instead of something that is good. If someone who struggled with SSA did not become a priest, the same burden would still be upon them. However, for a regular person, they would not be forced to give up marriage. I think what it truly comes down to though, is that anyone entering the priesthood is sacrificing companionship for life. Whether the arguement ByzCath introduced holds value, I am still unsure of, but I think it’s fair to debate. I certainly do not think that he meant any disrespect towards anyone though.
That being said, I still think the main problem with having priests who struggle with SSA is that they may in many cases, not have developed the masculine identity that a priest should have. Plus, if they say they are still “struggling” with it, I don’t think that’s a good sign in itself. But that’s just my thoughts, so take them with a grain of salt
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LilyM
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Of course not - chastity means a whole lot of other no-no’s too, no pornography, restrictions on what you read, watch and listen to, no immodest clothing and such.
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archangel63
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It’s way easier in this world to be bad than it is to be good.
It’s way easier in this world to live sinful than it is to be virtuous.
I don’t know, overcoming sin and becoming virtuous just seems more meritous and sacrificial than having the option to marry. But I can see your point.
LOL! Now you’re stereotyping. Not all gay men have limp wrists, talk with a lisp and swish when they walk. In my time I knew gay men of every shape and form (masculine and feminine). I also have known a number of effeminate heterosexuals.
I’m not defending the homosexual lifestyle here at all. I’m done with that lifestyle. All it brought me was grief. I’ve been celibate for 5 years now. How many straight 43 year-old men can say that in this day and time?
My celibacy is my sacrifice to God.
It is a sacrifice.
Correct me if it’s not.
…maybe I’m doing the wrong thing, but I think not.
Anyone who thinks it’s not a sacrifice needs to try it sometime.
And I’m also chaste. How many men can say that other than priests, monks, friars, etc? Until you have tried total and complete celibacy and chastity, you have NO IDEA what a sacrifice it is truly is. Like I said, try it first.
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Kevin42
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That is not at all what I meant when I said they have not developed a sense of true masculinity, or perhaps they have partially, but it is confused. It is my observation, and personal experience, that most people who are attracted to the same-sex face this issue because they do not know how to properly relate to heterosexual men. I don’t mean masculine as in “let’s go build something with power tools, watch football, and eat a huge steak!” I just mean that I think we are generally confused as to what it is to be a man and how to relate to other men, and this is the source of many of our problems. True masculinity is found in the life of Jesus.
I would like to say that I am not sure how well I explained this. It is rather late, so I think I’ll be off to bed after this post. Hopefully though everyone understand where my thoughts are coming from. Peace!
P.S. Oh also, my problem with the argument that ByzCath presents is that it seems to be based on “whose sacrifice is better”. That kind of thinking makes me incredibly uncomfortable.
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blessedtoo
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That’s awesome! Actually, there are quite a few of us out here, men and women, heterosexual and homosexual who are living chaste, celibate lives. For me, what may have initially began as a sacrifice, is now completely a gift. God generously responded to my pleas for a release from the inclination to sexual sin and now I consider my chastity a gift FROM Him.
God bless you in your walk!
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goofyjim
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Pope Benedict has already decided that a candidate with ssa can still be admitted to the seminary. He essentially saying that it is in the hand of the individual formation directors. The only ones to be excluded are he ones that cannot give up the lifestyle or find themselves supporting the lifestyle.
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goofyjim
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If one is to follow the argument that the only thing those with ssa gives up is sin, then they are agreeing that there is no possibility of change as far as ssa goes. Otherwise , yes they are giving up the option of a heterosexual marriage as well and therefore would make a good priest just like any other.
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archangel63
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Kevin, again, you are stereotyping.
I grew up with all straight guys. A crazy peer group of nutty straight guys (at least 12 of us - 3 being my closest and best friends). I had known these guys since 5th grade. We built forts in the woods together, got into hobbies together, played sports together, I watched them all dating girls (was around when they all lost their virginity). I was a drummer in a heavy metal band (back in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s when there was no room for gay men in that scene - it was taboo). I listened to bands like Rush, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, etc. We partied like their was no tomorrow. I drifted away from them (and playing in bands) so that I could come out of the closet and avoid embarassment and ridicule. I lost half of them when I came out (some couldn’t deal with the fact I was gay). I can relate to heterosexual men fine. That was never a problem for me at all. In fact, I was always more comfortable around hetero guys than I was around flaming, flagrant gay men. Effeminate men weirded me out (I was always attracted to masculine men - I always felt if you’re a man than act like one). Many of my straight men friends hung out with me and my lover of 8 years and everybody welcomed him as a friend. I am still in touch with a handfull of my old straight friends, and currently associate with NO gay people at all. Zilch.
Mine was not the typical homosexual upbringing experience. I was super close to my Dad and Mom as a boy. I was never molested ever. I wasn’t a sissy that other kids teased. I had tons of straight guy freinds. I was pretty much normal in every respect, except I knew I was gay. I always thought I was a needle in a haystack and I still do. I could never understand the gay trends or gay “likes”, LOL. I couldn’t stand showtunes, piano bars, disco, classical music, opera, country western…tattoos, peircings. I always thought Pride Day was ridiculous (what’s to be proud of???). Leather men gave me the creeps (I always thought they were the bottom of the barrel in the gay community - extremely fallen). Could never understand gay men’s obsession with women diva’s (Madonna, Cher, Judy Garland, Joan Crawford, etc.). Basically, I was not stereotypically gay in any way shape or form.
You need to throw your stereotypes in the trash, because they don’t apply to everyone.
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archangel63
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Very cool. I can turn that around a bit. I sometimes look at it as a gift from me to God. “Here God, I have given this part of my life up for you. I could be bathing in my sin and languishing in it (I will have to admit, much of it I enjoyed), but you are more important to me now. You have gifted me and now I am giving you my celibacy in return as a gift. This is how much I love you”. I know he has given me the strength to let this lifestyle go. There is absolutely no way I could have done it without the help of the Holy Spirit.
Let me just say, this is a lifelong struggle. If God wanted to tempt me or test me, all he has to do is throw some beautiful gay man my way. One that makes me melt inside. But it’s funny because the further I am away from the lifestyle, the more I see it as God would see it, and at this point it is obvious to me that it’s wrong and it doesn’t work.
What led me to all this? Being betrayed, being lied to, being cheated on, being crushed, being walked on, basically being screwed over by every gay man I gave my heart or trust to. Why? Because being gay is all about satisfying sex and lust…love for gay men comes second behind those two…that was a big clue for me.
“Romans” was right and what I experienced in gay culture proved it without a doubt.
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Ridgerunner
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But see, the “sexually abusive” priests were not pedophiles, for the most part. The great majority of them had relations with underage males, not prepubescent males; something that is, by the way, also true of homosexuals generally. Look at the John Jay study.
So, you’re willing to risk young people to those having a clearly disordered orientation, for whose practices the available statistics are not favorable. I’m not. That’s really the bottom line here.
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archangel63
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I agree. These priests who have caused this problem in the Church are homosexuals, not pedophiles. But I think the reason they prey on younger guys is because many of them deal with younger, lay, straight men who look up to them (alter boys, teenagers at school). They don’t bother dealing with adults for fear of being found out and reported, so they prey on innocent young guys, who don’t have sense enough to tell them to “get lost”. If I was a young guy and a priest had tried to “touch me” I would have told my parents (no matter what), “Hey Mom and Dad that priest is creepy. He tried to get sexual with me.” Interestingly enough many of these young guys keep going back for more. Just remember, it takes two to do the dirty deed. Rape is a different story, yet most of these cases are not rape at all. As a gay man I never would have gone near a priest for a sexual tryst. That would have been taboo for me messing with someone so close to God…the guilt would have torn me to shreds. Leading a priest away from God…wow, talk about guilt trips.
And you’re wrong about homosexuals favoring under age guys (or “twinkies” as the gay culture calls them). The majority of gay men I knew dated men their own age. The problem with the gay community is they worship youthful beauty (it’s very shallow). This is why gay men do their best to stay young, healthy and handsome (vanity is big in the gay ifestyle). When gay men age and get older, they are no longer appealing to the masses of gay men. They are then referred to as “trolls”. And yes, most of them would like to get their hands on younger men…but usually guys that are of age (18-25 years)…not teenagers or kids (although this is not to say a proportion of gay men are warped enough to break the law and hit up on under age guys, it happens, but it’s not a majority thing). When I was 23 I lost my virginity to a 37 year-old guy. I hit on him, he didn’t hit on me. I seduced him, not the other way around.
Lot’s of stereotyping in this thread, but that’s okay, especially if you haven’t walked in the shoes of a homosexual (it’s to be expected). I have been despised and I have been mocked before, and I know how to deal with it (and even better now that I have left that life behind).
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Kevin42
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I am not stereotyping. I said, in my personal experience, and in my observation, many men who deal with SSA seem to have something that causes them problems in properly relating to other guys, or how they perceive other guys. I never said this was the case for everyone, just the case for myself and many other people I have met. I really am not ignorant about the subject, and have really spent alot of time thinking about it. I really think that you might at least partially agree with me, except I don’t seem to be expressing my thoughts as clearly as I would hope. Anyways, since I seem to be dragging this slightly off track, that’s all for now.
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