Gay Professor has my class convinced that Gay marriage is good!

[Voco_proTatiano]

Again, sounds like relativism. When segregation was in force does that mean those laws should not have been decried as unjust?

Your definition of damaging to others needs to be expaned to be authentic.

Dear Fix,
You seem to misunderstand the concept of actual damage.
This then means more than gaving your sensibilities outraged, and more than your house being devalued because a queer lives next door.
More than having your local red-necked preacher being called a queer basher.
Actual damage to you personally, or to members of your family, personally.
It is actually difficult to imagine how this could be caused, other than by blatent exhibitionism, which would be equally objectionable from a ‘straight’ couple, or by deliberate propagandising of ‘Gay’ life-style.
The things you fear are made more likely by resisting the things you fear.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

You are being facetious?

No: deadly serious.

 

[fix]

No: deadly serious.

Then you mischaracterize the link.

 

[fix]

Dear Fix,
You seem to misunderstand the concept of actual damage.
This then means more than gaving your sensibilities outraged, and more than your house being devalued because a queer lives next door.
More than having your local red-necked preacher being called a queer basher.
Actual damage to you personally, or to members of your family, personally.
It is actually difficult to imagine how this could be caused, other than by blatent exhibitionism, which would be equally objectionable from a ‘straight’ couple, or by deliberate propagandising of ‘Gay’ life-style.
The things you fear are made more likely by resisting the things you fear.

Basically, yours is a philosophy that allows evil and public scandal based on a type or proportionalism and utility?

 

[setter]

The things you fear are made more likely by resisting the things you fear.

Sorry to jump into the fray, but does this above sentence apply to resisting objective evil? Or is one to embrace their sin in mutual solace?

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

What false premise? As for ancient Rome please see our current abortion rate as one evidence for vast decay. We are in decline.

In the first place, man, the image of God, was created “male and female” (Gen 1:27).

which is factually incorrect, so cannot have the Kharisma of infallibility.
Man is created male, female, intersex and neuter. For support of this assertion, see:
who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

 

[Joe_Stong]

There’s a difference between asserting something is true (male, female, intersex and neuter) and proving it true.

In any species there is bound to be statistical oddities such as two headed babies or mammals without limbs. But they don’t prove anything other than accidents of development occur.

The same is true with intersex and neutered individuals of the species homo sapiens. Mixed chromosomes in rare cases can lead to someone who morphologically looks male but is really female. But this doesn’t mean “aha, there is no such thing as a basic Male/female divide”.

Genetic differences that lead some human beings to be prone to alcoholism or depression or same sex attraction are no more signs of different species than the genetic differences that account for skin color would make us different species.

Not everything that occurs in a body’s development is “Natural” as if in accord with a thing’s proper nature. Children born with Dow syndrome aren’t different species from the rest of us. They just had a genetic accident that impairs the full development of their human nature.

What we see alot of GBLT people try to do is argue back from their apriori conclusion that any thing a person wants to do sexually is perfectly healthy for him to want and do, to some concept that since they think it’s natural, it MUST be natural, hence human nature must be composed of more than just male and female…

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Sorry to jump into the fray, but does this above sentence apply to resisting objective evil? Or is one to embrace their sin in mutual solace?

Hi, Setter,
This brings to mind Our Lord’s command: not to resist evil.
I gave you a koan, much as Our Lord gave his disciples a koan.
The world is more complex than can be remedied by simple resistance.

If you read the koan in context, you can see that the poster is more concerned with ‘Gay marriage’ than with the implications of banning the concept, that is, inappropriate interface between ‘Gays’ and ‘Straights’. The latter case is the actual damage which may occur if the imagined damage, which he is opposing is prevented.
The cure is worse than the disease.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

There’s a difference between asserting something is true (male, female, intersex and neuter) and proving it true.

I presume you viewed the link I gave. Does it so conflict with your faith position that you reject the WHO?

In any species there is bound to be statistical oddities such as two headed babies or mammals without limbs. But they don’t prove anything other than accidents of development occur.

The same is true with intersex and neutered individuals of the species homo sapiens. Mixed chromosomes in rare cases can lead to someone who morphologically looks male but is really female. But this doesn’t mean “aha, there is no such thing as a basic Male/female divide”.

What the WHO is saying is that the divide between male and female is not a simple case of black and white, but thare are a multiple of shades of grey in between, and there are some who cannot be so catagorised at all. See:
who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Genetic differences that lead some human beings to be prone to alcoholism or depression or same sex attraction are no more signs of different species than the genetic differences that account for skin color would make us different species.

Not everything that occurs in a body’s development is “Natural” as if in accord with a thing’s proper nature. Children born with Dow syndrome aren’t different species from the rest of us. They just had a genetic accident that impairs the full development of their human nature.

What we see alot of GBLT people try to do is argue back from their apriori conclusion that any thing a person wants to do sexually is perfectly healthy for him to want and do, to some concept that since they think it’s natural, it MUST be natural, hence human nature must be composed of more than just male and female…

I do not claim that it must be, but rather that it might be.
The arguement that it cannot be is equally fatuous as the claim that it must be.

 

[fix]

which is factually incorrect, so cannot have the Kharisma of infallibility.
Man is created male, female, intersex and neuter. For support of this assertion, see:
who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

Sex is binary. That anomalies exist does not mean they are ordained by God. He has a permissive will and we suffer a fallen nature.

 

[setter]

Hi, Setter,
This brings to mind Our Lord’s command: not to resist evil.
I gave you a koan, much as Our Lord gave his disciples a koan.
The world is more complex than can be remedied by simple resistance.

Taken in proper context, the Lord’s command was to love our enemies as the higher law of law replacing the external law of the Old Testament:

“But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;” Matthew 5: 39

By all means though, believer’s are commanded to resist participation with evil, even to the point of death:

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” **James 4: 7 **

“Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body.” 1 Corinthians 6: 18

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.” **Hebrews 12; 1-4 **

If you read the koan in context, you can see that the poster is more concerned with ‘Gay marriage’ than with the implications of banning the concept, that is, inappropriate interface between ‘Gays’ and ‘Straights’. The latter case is the actual damage which may occur if the imagined damage, which he is opposing is prevented.
The cure is worse than the disease.

No, the disease allowed to run to its natural end kills the soul, i.e., it deprives the soul of the life giving grace to survive in heaven. The “cure” as I read it is the only logical prescription to maintain integrity with the design of out Creator – no intangible “concept” here.

 

[Joe_Stong]

Exactly what I was going to point out: Homo sapiens is divided into two sexes: Male and Female. However ABNORMALITIES - acknowledge in the WHO report - do exist, IN THE DEVELOPMENT STAGE, not in “the nature” of the species… these abnormalities affect the sexual development of an individual such that the “gender” is not typical.

But genetic accidents also contribute to developments that lead to ‘shades’ of psychological well being and functioning…

The norm is for a male to have the gender specifics of his sex. If there’s a problem in his gender development, it’s a problem to be worked on not “perfectly healthy goal to be sought for and encouraged as wave of the future utopian bliss whose only downside is social scorn”.

And just like genetic misfires that lead people to be genetically disposed to depression don’t for that reason mean they’re less endowed by their creator with the right to life, liberty and happiness, so too, a gender development problem doesn’t make a person less loveable and less needy of friendship and compassion.

But what we’re seeing today is people with genetic health problems being praised as though there aren’t any genetic health problems. That - in my opinion - will lead to great mischief and isn’t the solution to past hurt feelings or unfair discrimination.

Some people are disposed to be highly addicted to certain chemicals - it’s in their genes. But does that mean we ought to praise and facilitate their addictive states and contribute all harm they suffer or inflict not on their use of certain chemicals or their natural defect, but solely on society’s negative reaction thereof?

The WHO is operating from an a priori premise that there is no such thing as a single human nature for homo sapiens whereas I and most Catholics operate from the classic pre-Christian Aristotelian concept that there is a single human nature which we all share for better or worse.

Without such single human nature there would be no objective ground for human rights, much less a concept of “health”. If everything is shades of gray with no qualitative distinction between health and illness, sanity and insanity then everything becomes a question of taste and not reason.

But even our anger in disagreement is a phenomenological proof to the implicit belief of single human nature that may allow for rare abnormalities and defects.

 

[Joe_Stong]

The problem with an absolute minority of people being allowed to impose THEIR new interpretation of Marriage on the rest of us via the courts, is that by doing so, they will establish in law the right of ANY minority to insist on and obtain judicial fiat imposition of THEIR new re-definition of marriage too…until the time comes when Marriage has been redefined to be totally subjective.

The problem is that a single human nature exists which means certain activities lead to harm and others to health. Social constructs such as gay marriage or plural marriage or temporary marriage while ‘THINKABLE’ aren’t therefore “naturally good for you”.

It won’t be long now before “plural marriages” will be approved following the same thinking of the gay marriage crowd. Soon the age of consent will be lowered as well to whatever age is appropriate for a girl to be ‘autonomous’ in the abortion decision (8 years old) by the same logic.

Since - by the logic being invoked - there is no human nature, no “norm that is good” but all is grey, who is to say extreme age differences is wrong and not merely ‘novel’? Thus we’ll get men marrying boys - but marriage will be temporary too - since who’s to say it must be permanent? If we can open the definition to ANY MINORITY, why not allow people - couples, groups, or even corporations to “marry” for only an hour?

There is no 40 year longitudinal study PROVING that corporate marriages lasting only 60 minutes (hitherto called orgies) is harmful to children, thus by the gay logic of “no past study is proof positive that no future study will prove our whim negative”, we will redefine marriage to include orgies lasting any period of time.

Ah but what’s the big deal and how does this affect my marriage you say? It’s not about me - or you - it’s about society as a whole. Millions of real people - many as yet unborn who will suffer the social consequences.

The emotional debris of pan sexualism took Western civilization nearly a thousand years to overcome and the costs of pan sexualism is coming home to roost even now with higher rates of suicide, depression, ennui, and child abuse than ever before, to say nothing of the damage being done to the gene pool by the rapid spread of hereditary STDs.

It’s not a coincidence that every great empire collapsed within a few generations of the explosion of sexual promiscuity among their elites and lower classes.

Men have been playing with social constructs from the beginning but you can’t fool nature.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Sex is binary. That anomalies exist does not mean they are ordained by God. He has a permissive will and we suffer a fallen nature.

Jo. 1:3
omnia per ipsum facta sunt
All things are made by him:
et sine ipso factum est nihil quod factum est
and without him** is made nothing that is** made.

The detailed design is the responsibility of G_D
As we are created, is how we are created by G_D

If G_D created us with the possibility of error, then that cannot be an error by G_D, but must have been a deliberate aim.
That HE designed our genome with such a fragile gender defining genome can also only be deliberate.

Any persons therefore suffering from this error are thus either blessed or cursed by G_D, and NEED our special concern, and understanding when they fail.

We should not see these intersex, and neuter persons as anything other than the creation of G_D,
And the fragility of the gender defining genome, making ill defined the border between male and female somewhat undefined is also a creation of G_D

This is not a true binary division, for a binary division has ONLY two states. this division is a fairly continuous spectrum from male to female with an infinity of possibilities in between, and some without.

Faith is blinding you to science.
That though is an abuse of faith.

 

[blessedtoo]

which is factually incorrect, so cannot have the Kharisma of infallibility.
Man is created male, female, intersex and neuter. For support of this assertion, see:

See Fix, Joe, and Setter’s responses because they said exactly what I planned to say. In addition, the disorders we see in human development (gender, orientation, alcoholism, pedophilia) are not God’s creation. Male and female, period.

The first link is to a bunch of rabid queer bashers, but the second link,

Your response to the link I provided speaks volumes. TFP provided factual info on the harm that homosexual “unions” will cause society. You have rejected these facts as “queer bashing.” Your use of this word itself says alot.

Ah but what’s the big deal and how does this affect my marriage you say? **It’s not about me - or you **- it’s about society as a whole. Millions of real people - many as yet unborn who will suffer the social consequences.

And I would add that Me and You ARE society. Individuals make up the society and so yes, it indeed impacts me and everyone else who tries to raise a family in this current culture of anything goes.

Voci,
Once again, you have twisted this thread into a topic you seem to be obsessed with (allowing evil for the sake of a dubious “good”). Catholic teaching opposes civil unions and no matter how you spin it (and you are really trying) that is the immutable truth.

Why don’t you start a thread on this topic of gender?

 

[yugnok]

Why don’t you start a thread on this topic of gender?

Yes please do.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

See Fix, Joe, and Setter’s responses because they said exactly what I planned to say. In addition, the disorders we see in human development (gender, orientation, alcoholism, pedophilia) are not God’s creation. Male and female, period.

To be strictly correct, the division is not strictly binary, it is bi-modal. That is, the majority of cases will fit into one gender or the other, but: and it is a huge but, the set of nominally male extends into the region classed as female, and likewise, vice versa.
This is not something new, it was inherrant in the animal world prior to the dawn of Man.

Your response to the link I provided speaks volumes. TFP provided factual info on the harm that homosexual “unions” will cause society. You have rejected these facts as “queer bashing.” Your use of this word itself says alot.

What you, and they call ‘facts’ are infact pseudofacts., and the adverse effects are for the most part, a combination of imagination and NIMBY. There is absolutely no evidence of REAL damage, only NIMBYs who don’t want a ‘queer’ couple living next-door.

And I would add that Me and You ARE society. Individuals make up the society and so yes, it indeed impacts me and everyone else who tries to raise a family in this current culture of anything goes.

Again, you are trying to present as something new, a hidden culture which has been present since the dawn of time. Nero and Herod were quite happy to play with ‘rent-boys’. Classical Greek society was quite liberal with homosexuality, indeed it was encouraged in the army. Perhaps this was a means of keeping them out of society…Indeed, the excessive numbers of homosexuals in the priesthood also serves this purpose.

Voci,
Once again, you have twisted this thread into a topic you seem to be obsessed with (allowing evil for the sake of a dubious “good”). Catholic teaching opposes civil unions and no matter how you spin it (and you are really trying) that is the immutable truth.

So, do you have a better solution, than sweeping under the carpet and hoping it will go away?
This has not worked in 4000 years.
Do you want to exterminate, as Hitler tried?
If you hide them, they will go underground and be a thousand times more dangerous to society.
At least, in the open, they are visible, and those who do not like it can go elsewhere.

Why don’t you start a thread on this topic of gender?

OK, so I will, but I believe you only want an Aunt Sally.

 

[fix]

Jo. 1:3
omnia per ipsum facta sunt
All things are made by him:
et sine ipso factum est nihil quod factum est
and without him** is made nothing that is** made.

The detailed design is the responsibility of G_D
As we are created, is how we are created by G_D

If G_D created us with the possibility of error, then that cannot be an error by G_D, but must have been a deliberate aim.
That HE designed our genome with such a fragile gender defining genome can also only be deliberate.

Any persons therefore suffering from this error are thus either blessed or cursed by G_D, and NEED our special concern, and understanding when they fail.

We should not see these intersex, and neuter persons as anything other than the creation of G_D,
And the fragility of the gender defining genome, making ill defined the border between male and female somewhat undefined is also a creation of G_D

So, God ordains evil? God has no permitting will? Your theology leads us to all types of problems.

This is not a true binary division, for a binary division has ONLY two states. this division is a fairly continuous spectrum from male to female with an infinity of possibilities in between, and some without.

Your assertion really is that deviations happen. I agree. Your position also would preclude an authentic understanding of normal health and pathology. In short, you must claim there is no health only shades of what is healthy. Now, I see where you are going.

Faith is blinding you to science.
That though is an abuse of faith.

You have it backward. Rationalism is blinding you to the full truth.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

So, God ordains evil? God has no permitting will? Your theology leads us to all types of problems.

Hi Fix,
Perhaps some thing you see as ‘evil’ are just things that you do not understand the purpose of.
Some people consider spiders, flys, scorpions and snake to be evil, but no!
They all have a rightful place in G_D’s creation.

Your assertion really is that deviations happen. I agree. Your position also would preclude an authentic understanding of normal health and pathology.

We’re getting there. Normal is not a real thing, it is a mathematical concept, which is an average of what the majority of one mode of a distribution has.
It is then, a purly statistical concept.
No-one is normal.
All deviate from normal; some more than others.

In short, you must claim there is no health only shades of what is healthy. Now, I see where you are going.

You have it backward. Rationalism is blinding you to the full truth.

In the words of Pilate:

Quid est veritas?

 

[fix]

Hi Fix,
Perhaps some thing you see as ‘evil’ are just things that you do not understand the purpose of.
Some people consider spiders, flys, scorpions and snake to be evil, but no!

That is overly simplistic. Physical evils such as mutations and deviations that lead to loss of health and proper function are the result of God’s permitting will.

They all have a rightful place in G_D’s creation.

Again, a permitting will and an ordaining will.

We’re getting there. Normal is not a real thing, it is a mathematical concept, which is an average of what the majority of one mode of a distribution has.
It is then, a purly statistical concept.
No-one is normal.
All deviate from normal; some more than others.

We are not talking about statistics. We are talking about health and disease. Right order and disorder. That statistics can quantify how often something occurs or not, but that does not answer why it occurs or what is health.

In the words of Pilate:

Quid est veritas?

Truth is a person, Jesus Christ.