Gay Rights

[AngelusDomini]

Holly3278 you will all be in my prayers, especially your little one on the way. Your partner has been very brave in being open and honest with you. You may find it useful to discuss your thoughts with a considerate priest.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Dear Holly,

Over the years, I’ve experienced a lot of blessing through reading your posts, and I’ve enjoyed (to whatever small degree) getting to know you. I’ve noticed that you’re not yourself lately, though, on the forums, and this sort of explains it. Hear me out.

I’m guessing that your boyfriend has shown you a kind of love/attention you never experienced before. It would be hard not be swept away in that. In the relationship, for whatever reason – God knows we all fall sometimes – you’ve been willing to give up your own commitment to chastity. Meanwhile, on the forum, your opinions have been changing (even ever-so-slightly) about the Church. You’ve become somewhat defensive about the issue of homosexuality, which is natural enough, but not most likely what God wants for you.

You need to take a step back and pray about your shame. This is not about your boyfriend; it’s about you. God loves you, right here, right now, no matter how awful you feel about yourself. You’re God’s darling, and He will stop at nothing to pursue you and possess you. You were made for Him.

The child in your womb will flourish best in an environment suffused by the love of God. You need to find that environment, as best as possible.

As for the bisexuality issue, I guess I can say a few words as a bisexual man myself. I feel like him saying “I’m bisexual” and “I don’t oppose gay marriage”, combined, comes pretty close to equaling: “I’m OK with having sex with guys.” It’s conceivable to combine both those statements with monogamy, certainly, but you haven’t said anything to suggest your boyfriend is unique enough to swim against the tide that tells him “if you have a sexual desire for men, that desire needs to be satisfied.”

I speak as a man who, despite opposing gay marriage, and despite making a commitment of monogamy to my wife, is still heavily tempted to satisfy my sexual desires outside of marriage. It takes remarkable fortitude to be chaste as a bisexual man.

I hope this helps, Holly, and know that I am fervently praying for you. Don’t allow Satan to lie to you, and tell you that hope is gone, so you might as well compromise. God’s grace has a plan, even in this situation. Take heart!

Blessings,
Prodigal

 

[Prodigal_Son]

You know, I wonder how many people have stopped to consider the fact that since I am dating this man and since we are getting married and because we are strictly monogamous that this will keep him from acting out his same sex attractions? Those of you who think we shouldn’t be together should consider that.

To be fair, Holly, I think the concern is more like this: You find me a bisexual man who both (a) believes in gay marriage, and (b) is monogamous with a woman, and I’ll find you a unicorn.

I don’t know if that’s fair, but I do know that I myself have never met such a man.

 

[SMGS127]

To be fair, Holly, I think the concern is more like this: You find me a bisexual man who both (a) believes in gay marriage, and (b) is monogamous with a woman, and I’ll find you a unicorn.

I don’t know if that’s fair, but I do know that I myself have never met such a man.

Really Prodigal?

I’ve met many such men! Holly, please feel free to PM me on this issue. The topics of homosexuality and especially bisexuality are incredibly toxic on these forums, and I’m sorry so many people are being judgmental towards your boyfriend. Your (and his) orientation are completely okay and do not affect your ability to follow Church teaching. I am getting on a flight right now but feel free to PM me and we can discuss this more there if you’d like. Alternatively I will respond here if you would rather talk here.

God bless you, your boyfriend, and your little one!

 

[TomFromMD]

To be fair, Holly, I think the concern is more like this: You find me a bisexual man who both (a) believes in gay marriage, and (b) is monogamous with a woman, and I’ll find you a unicorn.

Considering 55% of Americans support gay marriage (with 78% of those under age 30 supporting it), it shouldn’t be surprising at all that such people exist.

I know several monogamous homosexuals - I don’t see why it would be different with bisexuals. I’m attracted to blondes and brunettes, but that doesn’t mean I cheat on my wife.

I’m guessing you’ve met at least one such man, but they just happen to be married to a women.

 

[PaulinVA]

I speak as a man who, despite opposing gay marriage, and despite making a commitment of monogamy to my wife, is still heavily tempted to satisfy my sexual desires outside of marriage. It takes remarkable fortitude to be chaste as a bisexual man.

Why? Every married person forsakes all others. Why is it harder for a bisexual?

 

[TomFromMD]

Holly: You asked what the church teaches. Here is the relevant section from the Catechism:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

In other words:

1. Sexual acts are properly oriented towards reproduction and the marital bond, and this isn’t possible for homosexual acts.
2. Homosexual tendency is a tough thing to live with, and homosexuals need to be treated with respect and compassion.
3. People with homosexual tendencies can live a Christian life.

Furthermore, the Church teaches that:

1. Marriage is something - the relationship between a husband and a wife, ordained by God, and enshrined in natural law, ordered towards the begetting and raising of children. It is not a mere social construction.
2. Consequently, homosexual marriage is not marriage. For the government or society to redefine the word doesn’t change reality. You can call a cat a chicken, but that doesn’t make it lay eggs.

 

[SighGuy]

Back to the first post.

Hey everyone. For a while now I had believed that gay rights such as gay marriage were right. However, I am now trying hard to believe what the Catholic Church teaches on issues such as gay marriage. The problem is that my boyfriend is bisexual and he fully supports gay rights. How can I maintain my beliefs about this issue while maintaining a non-judgmental attitude?

That said, I am sorry if this is in the wrong forum. I wasn’t sure where to put it.

First off, I am very happy to see this: that you are trying hard to trust in the Church. It’s difficult! We always want to be part of the “Church of Holly” or the “Church of Sighguy” but never the “Church of Christ.” I’m sure you see how hypocritical it is for us to only agree on that which we like, and as soon as we meet resistance, to run the opposite way.

The truth is, the Church understands where the arguments are coming from in favor of gay marriage, but those in favor of gay marriage have no understanding of the Church’s arguments.

It was very difficult for me to accept this teaching at first. But now i understand it. Ultimately, it just has to do with order, and the way God made things, and the disorder that came about after original sin. It’s not only those with same sex attraction who are disordered, but it is all of us. The question is, if we give in to those desires.

Here’s my question: what do you mean by judgmental? Christians are never to judge one another, in the sense of saying “you are hellbound.” This is an arena of judging left only to God. Yet Scripture itself tells us to judge righteously, elsewhere. We can, do, and must judge actions. Without judgments that we constantly make, we could not survive, and it is the same in the moral realm. You do not need to condemn your boyfriend, because you do not know if he is condemnable. However, his beliefs are wrong, and they are judged rightly to be wrong. If you are overbearing with him, no doubt you’re going to cause damage. I don’t suggest you take an overbearing tone with him.

After all… what if I were overbearing with my past self? What if I divorced my past self, because I was different then from now? There are times when it is good to lay down the law hard, and there are times when it is not. You must use your judgment to distinguish.

In summary, you have to maintain your beliefs and you should be studying the Church’s teachings to reinforce them. The Truth is the most important part of our lives, and to just let it sit by the wayside, we proclaim boldly that we don’t care about God’s truth and we want no part in Heaven. Heaven is for those who have striven, by God’s grace, to get there, and not for those who don’t ever think about it, never think about Truth and Reality, and only contemplate their own immediate desires.

As far as judgment goes, I don’t recommend you become nasty or judgmental to your boyfriend, but you must firmly judge, at least in your heart, his beliefs as wrong, and you can’t give ground to them. Find common ground that you both agree on, sure, but do not cede ground to unTruth. We do not sacrifice truth for comfort.

God bless you.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Really Prodigal?

Considering 55% of Americans support gay marriage (with 78% of those under age 30 supporting it), it shouldn’t be surprising at all that such people exist.

Why? Every married person forsakes all others. Why is it harder for a bisexual?

OK, OK, OK! I may have gone too far in my comment. However, let me explain where I’m coming from…

I’m addressing Holly like I would address my own sister, since I’ve known Holly on these forums for quite a while. I care for her, and I don’t want anyone (intentionally or unintentionally) to hurt her.

What do we know about this man she is dating?

(1) He does not care about faith.
(2) He has no compunction against sexual activity before marriage.
(3) He supports gay marriage.

Do we know if he honestly intends to be faithful to Holly? No, we don’t. We know he says he will. Of course he says that – if he didn’t, Holly would be gone. Given the facts in 1-3 above, I see no reason to believe that he takes a marriage commitment seriously – especially if, as is not unlikely, Holly was hesitant to have sex with him and needed coaxing to agree to it.

Maybe the man has a firm moral compass, but – given the evidence I have – there is no way I would recommend him to marry my sister.

Holly, since you’ve been seeing this man, have you honestly felt yourself growing closer to God, or moving further away from Him? Do you see moral truths more clearly in the man’s presence, or does his presence make things foggy and confusing? Would you submit the care of your children’s souls to this man, or are you afraid that his casual attitude toward things could be toxic to their moral development?

Those are the sorts of questions you need to ask!

 

[truetofaith]

Ok, I am really offended by the hurtful comments about my boyfriend. He loves me very much and we have definite plans to get married. Plus, I am pregnant with his child. There is no way I am going to leave him because of his sexuality. Besides that, I am bisexual myself.

Now, it all comes out! You’re pregnant, bisexual also, definitely marrying him, so why are you asking about the Catholic Church’s position.

You obviously are following your own position, and will continue!

 

[KendraDZ1902]

No, dating doesn’t always lead to marriage…but isn’t that the end game of dating? Marriage?

I can’t imagine what kind of future dating a bisexual holds…probably not marriage.

Maybe you don’t see what kind of future you could have with anyone then, because no one is perfect and all sin. Just because this guy has both sex attraction, doesn’t mean he is doing anything wrong. He has different views when it comes to SSM, but people can learn and change their minds. I’ve changed my mind on plenty of things.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Why? Every married person forsakes all others. Why is it harder for a bisexual?

Let me give this its own answer, as a bisexual…

Because my wife cannot possibly even come close to providing what I desire from a man. (It’s not that one is better than the other – it’s that the desires are so DIFFERENT). I can be faithful to my wife, certainly, but only by submitting myself wholly to God’s will and God’s plan. If I believed in gay marriage – if I believed that sex between two men was not wrong – then there’s no way I could live my life without ever having sex with another man. Just being honest.

 

[truetofaith]

Why? Every married person forsakes all others. Why is it harder for a bisexual?

Good question…probably because marriage to a woman is just for appearances, & his sexual needs must be fulfilled elsewhere.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Good question…probably because marriage to a woman is just for appearances, & his sexual needs must be fulfilled elsewhere.

No, that doesn’t make sense. Some people, like myself, have a very deep and abiding need for a wife (and an accompanying sexual attraction), but nevertheless a very strong attraction to other men.

 

[PaulinVA]

No, that doesn’t make sense. Some people, like myself, have a very deep and abiding need for a wife (and an accompanying sexual attraction), but nevertheless a very strong attraction to other men.

Forgiving me for asking again, but this is something I’ve wondered about. Is the Same Se Attraction somehow deeper? More powerful?

I don’t have an attraction to other women. Maybe one or two women in my 31 years of marriage have even moved the needle past “ho hum”. Of course, I never did anything about it, but I wouldn’t say I have a strong attraction to other women.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Forgiving me for asking again, but this is something I’ve wondered about. Is the Same Se Attraction somehow deeper? More powerful?

I don’t have an attraction to other women. Maybe one or two women in my 31 years of marriage have even moved the needle past “ho hum”. Of course, I never did anything about it, but I wouldn’t say I have a strong attraction to other women.

Well, in terms of day to day activity, for me, no. I mean, I don’t see some cute guy, and become obsessed with him, or anything. It’s not hard for me to keep my friendships with men appropriate and non-sexual.

No, the issue for me is more like this: I deeply desire the kind of intimate/sexual relationship two men might have. I don’t have any trouble staying chaste in ordinary interactions, but rejecting the idea of a homosexual relationship, permanently, is hard. It’s not something I could do on my own power. The key thing is that I can’t get THIS desire satisfied at all through marriage, whereas a straight man can get his desire (at some level) satisfied through marriage.

So I think being a bisexual married to the opposite sex has something in common with celibacy, where you entirely refrain from a desire that seems perfectly natural to you.

 

[PaulinVA]

So I think being a bisexual married to the opposite sex has something in common with celibacy, where you entirely refrain from a desire that seems perfectly natural to you.

Would it be just as intense a desire for a woman if you were with a man long term?

Your explanation, by the way, makes sense. I never thought of it that way.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Would it be just as intense a desire for a woman if you were with a man long term?

Well, if I was “married” to a man, I would experience intense longings for the feminine – not only sexually, but also in a more holistic sense, the aspect of humanity that is soft and embracing and nurturing and so on. And I would long for a family of my own: my own kids, and everything that comes with family life.

(Also, I’m not sure I personally would ever really desire real monogamy with another man. I would want a safe and long-term relationship, but always with the possibility of having a “fling” with somebody else.)

 

[PaulinVA]

Well, if I was “married” to a man, I would experience intense longings for the feminine – not only sexually, but also in a more holistic sense, the aspect of humanity that is soft and embracing and nurturing and so on. And I would long for a family of my own: my own kids, and everything that comes with family life.

(Also, I’m not sure I personally would ever really desire real monogamy with another man. I would want a safe and long-term relationship, but always with the possibility of having a “fling” with somebody else.)

Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like it sucks to be Bi.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Hey everyone. For a while now I had believed that gay rights such as gay marriage were right. However, I am now trying hard to believe what the Catholic Church teaches on issues such as gay marriage. The problem is that my boyfriend is bisexual and he fully supports gay rights. How can I maintain my beliefs about this issue while maintaining a non-judgmental attitude?

You both are entitled to your opinions. Always be kind to each other regardless if you disagree on some matters. If he is saying to you “you’re being judgemental”, that’s unfair and unkind, since he also has made the judgement that gay marriage is a right. If you are going to argue over the matter, just bow out kindly and say that we can agree to disagree, and change the subject.