Gay Rights

[Elizium23]

Your (and his) orientation are completely okay and do not affect your ability to follow Church teaching. I am getting on a flight right now but feel free to PM me and we can discuss this more there if you’d like. Alternatively I will respond here if you would rather talk here.

Ahem, based on Holly’s description of her situation I think that Church teaching is taking a back seat to whatever the two lovebirds want. A boyfriend’s who’s got her pregnant, doesn’t want religion “pushed on him” and is ready to shack up as soon as financial obstacles are removed, doesn’t bode well. Who cares about orientation. I don’t think orientation is even going to enter into the equation right now. Holly has said they’re monogamous.

It’s more of a question to orientation to obedience. They’re in a fix right now and it’s disobedience that has led them down this path. Holly seems to have a good and genuine heart. I have greatly enjoyed reading her posts through the years here on Catholic Answers. So my heart aches for her. I’m sorry if it’s not so charitable to speak firmly about how wrong her relationship seems, but I do feel more concerned for her because of her reputation here.

It is too easy sometimes for a woman to be emotionally vulnerable and fall for the wrong guy. A bad boy or a cheater or an abuser or just unequally yoked, sometimes you have let down your guard because he is just so sweet, and before you know it, you are in a bad situation. I think now she is feeling pressure to continue and attachment to him. She is dead set on marrying him and it’s not going to make a difference what we say in this thread. She has asked for our help but she doesn’t want it. She has her heart set on a course of action and it will take an act of God to get her attention at this point. I will pray that somehow there will be an intervention before more damage is done here. All three of them definitely need prayers at this point.

 

[gracepoole]

Holly, I really understand where you’re coming from. And no, I don’t think your views need to be completely aligned with those of your boyfriend. His are in part determined experientially whereas yours may not be. My husband of almost 20 years and I don’t share the same views about faith. I think the key is to be respectful of the other’s views at all times. If I were Catholic and my husband were Jewish, I wouldn’t spout off about truth and how the Church is the sole holder of it. I don’t do so regarding any faith-oriented issue. I’m sure at times my husband thinks I’m off base. But unless my beliefs damage others, he is simply encouraging and loving at all times. I don’t attempt to change his views and he respects me by not attempting to change mine. The only tricky part is raising children together and I’m not sure if you see this in your future? I am fortunate in that my husband, while having serious reservations about Catholic teachings, wants our children to be raised in the Church. I’m also fortunate in that I don’t struggle to reject certain Church teachings (sorry, fellow Catholics – I know you view this as anathema) and my husband therefore completely supports my faith because he sees that I am consistently thinking about and wrestling with it. I think so long as you are loving, respectful, and not judgmental, there may not be a reason for your disparate views to taint your relationship with your boyfriend.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

If I believed in gay marriage – if I believed that sex between two men was not wrong – then there’s no way I could live my life without ever having sex with another man.

Prodigal, could you expand on this a bit more, or clarify? It sounds like you’re saying, “I, personally, need to believe that homosexual sex is wrong because that belief is the only thing that keeps me, personally, faithful to my wife.” I’m sure you’d agree that’s a poor foundation on which to build marital faithfulness, and a very subjective (and, therefore, also poor) foundation on which to build (and from which to expound) sexual morality. Consequently, I hope that what you meant to say is something different from how it comes across.

Thanks.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Rau]

Hey everyone. For a while now I had believed that gay rights such as gay marriage were right. However, I am now trying hard to believe what the Catholic Church teaches on issues such as gay marriage. The problem is that my boyfriend is bisexual and he fully supports gay rights. How can I maintain my beliefs about this issue while maintaining a non-judgmental attitude?

Given your boyfriend’s seeming lack of commitment to his catholic faith, I wonder whether the issue you raise will be a repeating problem for the future?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Grace & Peace!

Prodigal, could you expand on this a bit more, or clarify? It sounds like you’re saying, “I, personally, need to believe that homosexual sex is wrong because that belief is the only thing that keeps me, personally, faithful to my wife.” I’m sure you’d agree that’s a poor foundation on which to build marital faithfulness, and a very subjective (and, therefore, also poor) foundation on which to build (and from which to expound) sexual morality. Consequently, I hope that what you meant to say is something different from how it comes across.

Thanks.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark, I’m not sure I understand your misunderstanding of what I said.

First of all, the fact that one has a prudential reason to believe P does not entail that one lacks other reasons to believe P. There are a multitude of (epistemic) reasons to believe that homosexual sex is wrong. The fact that this belief is also practically helpful to me in fulfilling my marriage vows does not negate those epistemic reasons.

Second, you fail to understand how much my statement was predicated on curiosity. Just so, a straight man might say that the conviction that oral sex to orgasm is wrong keeps him from engaging in that activity with his wife. But in my case, the actions I experience curiosity about cannot be done with my wife (wrong parts, y’know). So, knowing my own frailty, I have a hard time imagining myself not having any intrinsic objection to homosexual activity and yet not engaging in it.

But you see, I also can’t imagine a justification for gay sex that would not also justify adultery. Any such justification would automatically sever the link between sex and reproduction, and so I don’t see why – in such a case – I wouldn’t just say to my wife, “Wife, I know we have this cool marital love thing going, but I’m just looking for another kind of sex you can’t offer.” And I don’t see how she could object, sex not being about reproduction or the raising of a family.

Third, the foundation of marital faithfulness is the action of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit commands me not to do certain things; this is one of the ways He acts. When I submit to this action, out of love for God and love for my wife, I am faithful to my wife. There is no other way to be faithful to her.

 

[thistle]

Ok, I am really offended by the hurtful comments about my boyfriend. He loves me very much and we have definite plans to get married. Plus, I am pregnant with his child. There is no way I am going to leave him because of his sexuality. Besides that, I am bisexual myself.

As a Catholic you know the Church cannot be in error in matters of faith and morals so you know the Church is right about homosexuality (active same sex sexual relations through to same sex marriage).
Fornication is also a sin of grave matter.

 

[DexUK]

I have read a number of comments here that imply that a woman should not date or marry a bisexual man.

And yet, that bisexual man is committing to a married life with a woman. What more do you people want? You’re getting what you wish for: the man who has (at least some) same sex desires from time to time is, in fact, marrying a woman.

Do you people honestly think that bisexual people can’t control themselves and are incapable of living up to their vows? Are these people somehow so depraved that they’re not able to commit to the person their heart desires? Are you so willing to condemn people who’s sexual orientation may not be quite the same as your own to a life of loneliness and celibacy when it need not be so? Are you really that judgemental and cruel or just lacking in basic common sense about the ability of a human being to love and make vows to another?

 

[Rau]

I have read a number of comments here that imply that a woman should not date or marry a bisexual man.
…

It would help it you referenced the posts that give rise to you comment. Have you drawn the correction inference from the other posts, or are other posters concerned more about the boyfriend’s limited attachment to his faith and/or his expressions of support for same sex marriage (in defiance of his faith)?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I have read a number of comments here that imply that a woman should not date or marry a bisexual man.

If you’re talking about my comment, you’re misreading it entirely. My wife, you see, is married to a bisexual man: me. So I hardly oppose it in principle.

 

[DrTaffy]

If you’re talking about my comment, you’re misreading it entirely. My wife, you see, is married to a bisexual man: me. So I hardly oppose it in principle.

To be fair, Holly, I think the concern is more like this: You find me a bisexual man who both (a) believes in gay marriage, and (b) is monogamous with a woman, and I’ll find you a unicorn.:

Hard not to read that as such.

Also see posts #2 #3 and #4

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Hard not to read that as such.

Also see posts #2 #3 and #4

First of all, I later admitted that comment was an overstatement.

Second of all, that comment included the HUGE qualifier “who believes in gay marriage”.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Hard not to read that as such.

Also see posts #2 #3 and #4

What don’t you like about post number 4?

That dating doesn’t always lead to marriage? That I personally wouldn’t date/marry a bisexual? Or that this relationship may bring him to realize that gay marriage is immoral?

If it was because I wouldn’t want to date a bisexual, then you wouldn’t want to see my list of no-go’s when it came to dating. Thankfully, hubby qualified.

 

[DrTaffy]

What don’t you like about post number 4?

That dating doesn’t always lead to marriage? That I personally wouldn’t date/marry a bisexual? Or that this relationship may bring him to realize that gay marriage is immoral?

If it was because I wouldn’t want to date a bisexual, then you wouldn’t want to see my list of no-go’s when it came to dating. Thankfully, hubby qualified.

I am just saying that it arguably comes under the heading of “comments here that imply that a woman should not date or marry a bisexual man.”

 

[KendraDZ1902]

I am just saying that it arguably comes under the heading of “comments here that imply that a woman should not date or marry a bisexual man.”

I’m perfectly fine with Suzie dating Johnny, who is bisexual. I wouldn’t. I also wouldn’t date independents in college, but I was perfectly fine with sisters dating independents.

 

[Elizium23]

And yet, that bisexual man is committing to a married life with a woman. What more do you people want? You’re getting what you wish for: the man who has (at least some) same sex desires from time to time is, in fact, marrying a woman.

Do you people honestly think that bisexual people can’t control themselves and are incapable of living up to their vows? Are these people somehow so depraved that they’re not able to commit to the person their heart desires? Are you so willing to condemn people who’s sexual orientation may not be quite the same as your own to a life of loneliness and celibacy when it need not be so? Are you really that judgemental and cruel or just lacking in basic common sense about the ability of a human being to love and make vows to another?

This bisexual man has proven he can’t control himself and is incapable of chastity. He has gotten Holly pregnant out of wedlock. Now we realize it takes two to tango, but it only takes one to say “no” and clearly both Holly and her boyfriend are out of control in this relationship. Knowing what I know from this forum, if I were a priest in charge of their wedding preparation, I would be raising serious questions now about their ability to consent to a lifelong bond of marriage. Especially in view of having a child on the way.

 

[AyJSimon]

This bisexual man has proven he can’t control himself and is incapable of chastity. He has gotten Holly pregnant out of wedlock. Now we realize it takes two to tango, but it only takes one to say “no” and clearly both Holly and her boyfriend are out of control in this relationship. Knowing what I know from this forum, if I were a priest in charge of their wedding preparation, I would be raising serious questions now about their ability to consent to a lifelong bond of marriage. Especially in view of having a child on the way.

I don’t understand what an unwillingness (not an inability) to remain chaste before marriage has to do with one’s hypothetical inability to remain monogamous after marriage.

 

[Elizium23]

I don’t understand what an unwillingness (not an inability) to remain chaste before marriage has to do with one’s hypothetical inability to remain monogamous after marriage.

Perhaps you don’t understand what marriage is about, then. All of us are called to chastity, 100% of us, all the time. When married, we must be chaste with our spouse. Now the Holy Father has said we don’t have to “be like rabbits” and that means NFP is available to use to space births. Therefore, by the use of NFP we must abstain from sexual relations during the fertile period. There are other important reasons for married couples to abstain too. Furthermore, even a married couple must refrain from sexual acts not open to life, such as sodomy and onanism. That means that “anything goes” between “consenting adults” in the bedroom is not a part of the vocation to marriage. The fact that an unmarried couple has fallen pregnant out of wedlock indicates that they have not mastered their sexual urges. Self-mastery is necessary before following any vocation. Those who take a vow of celibacy must be prepared to live that vow and that means they have mastered their urges. Those who take a vow of matrimony must be prepared to be faithful and chaste with their spouse and that naturally implies that they have mastered their own selves.

Holly and her boyfriend need to seriously consider why they have not achieved this self-mastery yet and whether they can still do so in pursuit of a permanent marriage bond.

 

[AyJSimon]

Perhaps you don’t understand what marriage is about, then. All of us are called to chastity, 100% of us, all the time. When married, we must be chaste with our spouse. Now the Holy Father has said we don’t have to “be like rabbits” and that means NFP is available to use to space births. Therefore, by the use of NFP we must abstain from sexual relations during the fertile period. There are other important reasons for married couples to abstain too. Furthermore, even a married couple must refrain from sexual acts not open to life, such as sodomy and onanism. That means that “anything goes” between “consenting adults” in the bedroom is not a part of the vocation to marriage. The fact that an unmarried couple has fallen pregnant out of wedlock indicates that they have not mastered their sexual urges. Self-mastery is necessary before following any vocation. Those who take a vow of celibacy must be prepared to live that vow and that means they have mastered their urges. Those who take a vow of matrimony must be prepared to be faithful and chaste with their spouse and that naturally implies that they have mastered their own selves.

Holly and her boyfriend need to seriously consider why they have not achieved this self-mastery yet and whether they can still do so in pursuit of a permanent marriage bond.

Has it escaped your notice that a virtually uncountable number of couples in human history have retained a lifelong bond of marriage without meeting this restrictive understanding of sexual self-mastery?

 

[Elizium23]

Has it escaped your notice that a virtually uncountable number of couples in human history have retained a lifelong bond of marriage without meeting this restrictive understanding of sexual self-mastery?

Need I quote you some statistics on the rampant corrosion of separations, spousal abuse and neglect, divorces, custody battles, and declarations of nullity in order to demonstrate how broken is the understanding of marital fidelity and chastity in today’s world? Perhaps self-mastery is more important than you think.

There’s a popular saying that I want you to meditate on: “why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free?” This is the mentality of young men who cohabitate and hook up with women in a post-family, post-marriage culture.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Need I quote you some statistics on the rampant corrosion of separations, spousal abuse and neglect, divorces, custody battles, and declarations of nullity in order to demonstrate how broken is the understanding of marital fidelity and chastity in today’s world? Perhaps self-mastery is more important than you think.

There’s a popular saying that I want you to meditate on: “why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free?” This is the mentality of young men who cohabitate and hook up with women in a post-family, post-marriage culture.

People can give milk away for free and still be bought. My aunt and uncle had sex before marriage, they have been married for 12 years now. People mess up and that doesn’t mean that their marriage and lives are doomed before it even happens. People can and do change.