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ellam25
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Yep.
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edwest2
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“Even if they are wrong…”? We can legislate polygamy next if there’s no right and wrong.^^^^^^
It is just this that I cant understand. Why must we force our perception onto other people, why legislate it? Even if they are wrong I cant see why?
usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/02/montana-polygamous-marriage-license-supreme-court/29612673/
Ed
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edwest2
Guest
Most of the Founding Fathers were Protestants. In the 1950s, there was a lot of talk using the term WASP – White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.So which church or religion get’s priority in a state without separation between church and state? Should liberal Protestant Christianity get priority?
Ed
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edwest2
Guest
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JimG
Guest
Perhaps one of the problems of the current era is that we no longer recognize reality. There were men and women long before there was religion. That’s why marriage came about (and children, and families.) Marriage predates religion. So If one looks at the human race and says, well, I don’t recognize man and woman as the basic types of human beings, that’s just failure to observe reality. When did anatomy become religion?Because many people don’t see it that way when looking at anatomy-- I don’t without religion… Unless you are having children I cant think of a single reason an agnostic or atheist or even someone form a different spiritual perspective would necessarily come up with the same conclusion. Why do we insist upon forcing our perception of things on others who don’t see it the same way?
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edwest2
Guest
I don’t want irrationality legalized by the government. Our coins have “In God We Trust” on them. No accident, I’m sure.So are you saying basically that you want a Christian nation with Christian rules enforced by the the government? If that is the case then it at least makes the Catholic position on this understandable for me even if I do disagree.
Read what the Church is saying:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
When politics becomes “With enough money and advertising, I can legalize anything” then “we no longer have a functioning democracy.”
Voters in California turned down gay marriage twice. The will of the people? This isn’t about me or anyone else outside of the gay activist community, since the ‘votes weren’t there’ after the first setbacks, then more money was spent and even door to door representatives for gay marriage went to the average person to confuse the issue.
Ed
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franklinstower
Guest
I’m looking for actual positions so I can understand the other sides perspectives. I am not building a case so I can argue against you or anyone else. I just want to understand.“Even if they are wrong…”? We can legislate polygamy next if there’s no right and wrong.
usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/02/montana-polygamous-marriage-license-supreme-court/29612673/
Ed
Is it your position then that it is a slippery slope argument? I should mention an instance to bolster your case. A black woman and her daughter noticed that they were attracted to one another around puberty. They waited till the daughter was 18 and they are now lovers. The mother said “they are the new minorities.”
Is this the main reason Christianity is so against gay civil unions?
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edwest2
Guest
Exactly right.Perhaps one of the problems of the current era is that we no longer recognize reality. There were men and women long before there was religion. That’s why marriage came about (and children, and families.) Marriage predates religion. So If one looks at the human race and says, well, I don’t recognize man and woman as the basic types of human beings, that’s just failure to observe reality. When did anatomy become religion?
Ed
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franklinstower
Guest
There have always been people who were attracted to the same sex just like there are today.Perhaps one of the problems of the current era is that we no longer recognize reality. There were men and women long before there was religion. That’s why marriage came about (and children, and families.) Marriage predates religion. So If one looks at the human race and says, well, I don’t recognize man and woman as the basic types of human beings, that’s just failure to observe reality. When did anatomy become religion?
Even if they are wrong why should we legislate against their right to explore life and its meanings? What is the harm that it does to us-- that is what I am trying to find out. I am not saying there is none but I have read many arguments and they are built upon logic chains that are not conclusive and that almost always begin with religious premise that you cannot expect a secular person to recognize.
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edwest2
Guest
You’re not quoting or perhaps, not reading the Christian side of the argument or perhaps you think this is just a Christian thing.I’m looking for actual positions so I can understand the other sides perspectives. I am not building a case so I can argue against you or anyone else. I just want to understand.
Is it your position then that it is a slippery slope argument? I should mention an instance to bolster your case. A black woman and her daughter noticed that they were attracted to one another around puberty. They waited till the daughter was 18 and they are now lovers. The mother said “they are the new minorities.”
Is this the main reason Christianity is so against gay civil unions?
jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby_gay_marriage.php3
wnd.com/2014/09/black-pastors-called-silver-bullet-against-gay-marriage/
firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2006/08/robert-george-beyond-gay-marri
Ed
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Lion_IRC
Guest
franklinstower,
Suppose you have two adjoining countries. One permits SSM and the other prohibits SSM.
Do either of those countries have the right to tell the other what they ought to do?
Presumably you would say that each should mind their own business.
But the one which prohibits SSM is being harassed continuously by the other and being told that it has to agree with its neighbor’s political worldview.
So who is really doing the interfering?
Suppose you have two adjoining countries. One permits SSM and the other prohibits SSM.
Do either of those countries have the right to tell the other what they ought to do?
Presumably you would say that each should mind their own business.
But the one which prohibits SSM is being harassed continuously by the other and being told that it has to agree with its neighbor’s political worldview.
So who is really doing the interfering?
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Thorolfr
Guest
So it’s not proper for people to go door to door to try and persuade their fellow citizens to vote a certain way? (BTW, I’ve actually gone door-to-door on certain political issues before).I don’t want irrationality legalized by the government. Our coins have “In God We Trust” on them. No accident, I’m sure.
Read what the Church is saying:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
When politics becomes “With enough money and advertising, I can legalize anything” then “we no longer have a functioning democracy.”
Voters in California turned down gay marriage twice. The will of the people? This isn’t about me or anyone else outside of the gay activist community, since the ‘votes weren’t there’ after the first setbacks, then more money was spent and even door to door representatives for gay marriage went to the average person to confuse the issue.
Ed
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franklinstower
Guest
I am not trying to be difficult here but I don’t see how that relates to my question which is simply why we feel it is our right to obligate others to live according to a world view which we find naturally apparent but they do not.Ifranklinstower,
Suppose you have two adjoining countries. One permits SSM and the other prohibits SSM.
Do either of those countries have the right to tell the other what they ought to do?
Presumably you would say that each should mind their own business.
But the one which prohibits SSM is being harassed continuously by the other and being told that it has to agree with its neighbor’s political worldview.
So who is really doing the interfering?
I am not gay and I don’t even want my daughter exposed to it the concept of homosexuality until she is as old as possible. I still cannot see my own feelings as a justification to force others to do or not do what I feel is right.
I have read the Christian argument against same sex marriage but it seems that in the end it is just about wanting to force others to live in a way that we see fit. I am not even saying that this is necessarily wrong although I don’t agree with it, again, I am just trying to understand it more deeply.
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JimG
Guest
Well, there have always been people who have been attracted to children just like there are today. There have always been people attracted to multiple partners, as there are today. There have always been people attracted to incest just as there are today.There have always been people who were attracted to the same sex just like there are today.
Even if they are wrong why should we legislate against their right to explore life and its meanings? What is the harm that it does to us-- that is what I am trying to find out. I am not saying there is none but I have read many arguments and they are built upon logic chains that are not conclusive and that almost always begin with religious premise that you cannot expect a secular person to recognize.
Some of these practices have been legally restricted because society deems them harmful to individuals or society. But at some point the opposite view may prevail. Society changes it’s mind on occasion. I think it best to follow 10,000 years of precedent when it comes to not recognizing same sex unions as marriage, because it provides no benefit to society. One would be hard pressed, I think, to draw out the consequences of any of the above as inevitable and deleterious. Nevertheless, they will be played out in the development or devolution of society. And as I mentioned before, this process of the dissolution of marriage was begun long before homosexuals thought it would be a good idea for them.
It is a current fad, which in historical terms will likely be short lived. I’ve said before that I think the counterrevolution to same sex marriage will probably be led by the ‘children’ of same sex couples.
This article on the recent court decision discusses some of the harms.
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JimG
Guest
Bigger, wider, shallower, less attuned to reality, more prone to fall for nonsense.But it’s not being destroyed.
Au contraire: It’s growing bigger, wider.
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Thorolfr
Guest
When was the last time a major right was given to any group in our society only to be later taken away?It is a current fad, which in historical terms will likely be short lived. I’ve said before that I think the counterrevolution to same sex marriage will probably be led by the ‘children’ of same sex couples.
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truthquester
Guest
When it comes to gay rights and marriage, I used to feel troubled about this myself as well but then I remembered that Christ Himself did not cast the first stone so I say to myself that is between them and God. To each his own, they are people first before they are gay.
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Memaw
Guest
Many do not share the same perspectives and philosophies on stealing as we do either but is our society supposed to give them a right to do that. What about “honor” killing, adultery or rape or any other breaking of God’s laws. Do we just pick and choose which ones we can legally break such as Abortion and SSM. Our Supreme Court had NO right to legalize either one of them!! The Supreme Court is there to interpret laws, NOT make them!!! God Bless, MemawI understand and agree with this concept for you and I who are Christian since we both see human nature that way but this is religion and many people do not share the same perspectives and philosophies. This is where I cant see the logic in the Christian position.
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franklinstower
Guest
^^^^^When it comes to gay rights and marriage, I used to feel troubled about this myself as well but then I remembered that Christ Himself did not cast the first stone so I say to myself that is between them and God. To each his own, they are people first before they are gay.
I don’t mean to piggy back on your post and take it further than you meant to because that’s just about where I am on the subject. Having said that I know a gay man who is so very close to Christ. He is as devoted a person as I have ever met even considering the monks and nuns that I am acquainted with. I can feel the presence of Christ in him so strongly…
I am absolutely not saying that he is right to be a practicing gay man or that it is not sinful but I also cannot deny the good that is so clearly in him. In many ways I see him to be my spiritual superior- he is far ahead of my in many ways…
He really is persuaded that it is not wrong to be gay and that the prohibitions in the bible are misinterpreted, I am not agreeing with him, just stating his position.
I hope the slippery slope argument is wrong- I don’t want to see our society degrade into an anything goes culture. If it does though maybe we will have a revival of the Holy Spirit to match it-- kind of like the Romans in the days of Jesus and his disciples.
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sps49
Guest
J.D. Unwin (Sexual Regulations and Cultural Behavior, Sex and Culture) , and Pitirim Sorokin (The American Sex Revolution) examined past and current civilizations and discovered that male-female unions (marriage) are necessary for stability of societies, according to their research. Deviations from this model apparently causes no end of trouble. This is not only a “Christian” issue, but one that is deep-seated in our psyche, and may be more than a biological imperative.I am not trying to be difficult here but I don’t see how that relates to my question which is simply why we feel it is our right to obligate others to live according to a world view which we find naturally apparent but they do not.I
I am not gay and I don’t even want my daughter exposed to it the concept of homosexuality until she is as old as possible. I still cannot see my own feelings as a justification to force others to do or not do what I feel is right.
I have read the Christian argument against same sex marriage but it seems that in the end it is just about wanting to force others to live in a way that we see fit. I am not even saying that this is necessarily wrong although I don’t agree with it, again, I am just trying to understand it more deeply.
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