Gay to Straight?

[JohnMPhilomena]

Great post Bobobob!
It’s exactly what I’ve heard from the research I’ve done and from the people that I know that have been through this.

 

[CarlaOLS]

No, you misunderstand me. Number one: I’m no longer a Catholic. Number two: Homosexuality is not an “abomination.” Most importantly, number 3: I repeat, you can fake it, but you can’t change who you really are.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, other than the almost unforgivable hatred towards it.

Ironically Yours.

BLADE why bother quoting if you aren’t going to address ANYTHING I SAID?

#1) So since you dumped religion, you have no social concept of Christian love and respect? Fine leave out the word Christian and answer the question why you hate appear
to have such a venomous attitude toward ex-gays.

#2) WHO SAID “Abomination?” I actualy have even more sympathy for those who suffer SSA, because I understand its root causes of psychological damage and deficiencies that can NEVER be satisfied by accepting a gay lifestyle. The attraction is a symptom. The attitude you display to poor Jack and others who are questioning their attraction CONDEMNS them to a life they neither want nor can fulfuilling for them even aside from the religious factor, psychologicaly.

The numbers for success (actually as good as or better than AA) are dependent upon so many factors, not unlike depression, anxiety disorders or other psychological/environmental problems that have to be worked on over time.

Many fail because the individual expects more immediate results than what any therapist can deliver when dealing with complicated pasts and psyches. Some are not willing to put the work into leaving the highly addictive and overtly active sex life and porn that acts as an emotional sedative and quick-fix for their constant pain and low-self esteem. Some do not involve prayer, but the success rate for those who do are far gretaer.

#3) There you go assuming someone is faking it and throwing the accusation out as if it were fact. As I said knowing several of these folks, studying others and following their progress, the results are real and lasting.

The American Psychological Association’s prestigious journal Professional Psychology: Research and Practice has just published a comprehensive research paper on sexual-orientation change. Clients have the right to pursue change, the author says, because "sexual orientation, once thought to be an unchanging trait, is actually quite flexible for some people…“My literature review contradicts the policies of major mental health organizations because it suggests that sexual orientation, once thought to be an unchanging sexual trait, is actually quite flexible for many people, changing as a result of therapy for some, ministry for others and spontaneously for still others.”

Dr. Robert Spitzer, who was one of the key figures behind the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) decision to remove homosexuality from the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual in 1973, now believes that “people can and do change. Like most psychiatrists, I thought that homosexual behavior could only be resisted, and that no one could really change their sexual orientation. I now believe this to be false.”

 

[GW]

Jack,

This will be my last post here on the subject. I have to repeat myself that life-long marriage among heterosexuals is not really about attraction at all - it’s about family love and serving the others in the family in Christ-like self-giving. So, anyone can do that.

Hollywood romanticized attraction is, well, mostly just glorified movie fantasies. If romance and hot sex and beautiful attraction had any staying power at all, Hollywood couples would last a lifetime instead of mere months. Romance and attraction are fickle short-term feelings that don’t have much to offer beyond a very very short space of time. In contrast, married love is a loving family commitment and daily giving and cooperation among a community of naturally related individuals.

I don’t know if your innate physical attractions can change radically more than I can change my dislike or like of certain foods. However, there are such things as “acquired tastes,” as we all know. As to the physical, you could realistically gain an acquired taste for the opposite sex. But the great news about marriage is that, on the whole, it has little at all to do with physical romantic attraction anyway—it’s about family living and caring. So, anyone could be a good marriage partner with someone of the opposite sex. With that understanding and focus in life, you might even discover that you would be an absolutely fantastic father of children and the closest love to your female partner with whom you have, by God’s creative mission and bodily design, produced a whole bunch of children who look to you for daily care, love, and guidance.

Anyone of any “sexual orientation” can live the vocation of natural marriage with an opposite sex partner. Marriage is all about life-long committed friendship and care. And anyone can give that Christian love to a family in community. You probably already have lots of real experience and practice with your siblings, parents, etc.

I wish you the best, Jack.

 

[CarlaOLS]

Jack check out as many testimonies as you can and you wil be convinced too.

On the People Can Change website:

peoplecanchange.com/About_Us.htm

Other websites:

couragerc.net/MemberTestimonies.html ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rossuk/h-testim.htm anotherway.com/menus/pages.html
evergreeninternational.org/testimonies.htm
exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_HomoSexuality.shtml freetobeme.com/real.htm jonahweb.org/html/ourstories.phtml narth.com/menus/interviews.html newdirection.ca/stories.htm oneby1.org/testimonies.htm
pfox.org/testimonies.html stonewallrevisited.com/menus/pages.html transformingcong.org/Testimony.htm witnessfortheworld.org/Testimonies.html

 

[IMAbeliever]

Jack,

This will be my last post here on the subject. I have to repeat myself that life-long marriage among heterosexuals is not really about attraction at all - it’s about family love and serving the others in the family in Christ-like self-giving. So, anyone can do that.

Hollywood romanticized attraction is, well, mostly just glorified movie fantasies. If romance and hot sex and beautiful attraction had any staying power at all, Hollywood couples would last a lifetime instead of mere months. Romance and attraction are fickle short-term feelings that don’t have much to offer beyond a very very short space of time. In contrast, married love is a loving family commitment and daily giving and cooperation among a community of naturally related individuals.

I don’t know if your innate physical attractions can change radically more than I can change my dislike or like of certain foods. However, there are such things as “acquired tastes,” as we all know. As to the physical, you could realistically gain an acquired taste for the opposite sex. But the great news about marriage is that, on the whole, it has little at all to do with physical romantic attraction anyway—it’s about family living and caring. So, anyone could be a good marriage partner with someone of the opposite sex. With that understanding and focus in life, you might even discover that you would be an absolutely fantastic father of children and the closest love to your female partner with whom you have, by God’s creative mission and bodily design, produced a whole bunch of children who look to you for daily care, love, and guidance.

Anyone of any “sexual orientation” can live the vocation of natural marriage with an opposite sex partner. Marriage is all about life-long committed friendship and care. And anyone can give that Christian love to a family in community. You probably already have lots of real experience and practice with your siblings, parents, etc.

I wish you the best, Jack.

While well-intentioned, this advice is misleading, IMO.

Physical attraction is a key element in a marriage. You make it sound like someone can flip a switch on his emotions, desires, attractions. You ignore the fact that a person with SSA would continue to be attracted to persons of the same sex. This would be an impediment to the marriage.

While in theory, I suppose your proposal could occur, I believe it would be a struggle and strain on the marriage. As has been stated numerous times above, do not enter marriage if you are feeling conflicted about your sexuality. Marriage is difficult enough under normal circumstances.

 

[CarlaOLS]

“Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change” Project
New Direction Ministries in Toronto, Canada, has collected and critiqued 31 clinical research studies, individual case studies and surveys on homosexuality and the possibility of change published in books or academic journals between 1952 and 2003. The reviewers looked for reported changes, and supporting evidence for changes, in behavior, attractions, fantasy and self-identification by the subjects of the various studies and surveys.

The reviewers with the “Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change” project selected for analysis only those subjects for whom enough data was available in the published reports to assign the subjects approximate before-and-after Kinsey sexual orientation scores of from 0 (exclusively heterosexual) to 6 (exclusively homosexual). They eliminated from consideration those subjects whose “before” scores were lower than 5 (where 5 is “predominantly homosexual”) or for whom insufficient information was available to assign any scores at all.

The reviewers found that using even this conservative before-and-after analysis, the published research clearly supports at least:

45 cases of people who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual (a 6 or 5 on the Kinsey scale) making a full shift in sexual orientation (to a 0 on the Kinsey scale).

287 cases of people who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual (a 6 or 5 on the Kinsey scale) making a partial shift in sexual orientation (to a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale).

86 cases of people who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual who transitioned to satisfying heterosexual relationships. (This third group of studies measured change by external behavior and reports of satisfaction, rather than reports of levels of attraction.)
Thus you have at least 418 cases in the published psychological literature of heterosexual orientation shift, according to the criteria used by the “Possibility of Change” project. However, the studies themselves actually report at least 563 subjects who experienced varying degrees of change toward increased heterosexuality. (The lower number is due to the project reviewers applying uniform criteria, years after the fact, to summarize more than 50 years of published studies, and thus excluding reports that didn’t fit their criteria for analysis.)

Some may argue that many of these studies are old, and thus outdated. But old and outdated are not synonymous. Research doesn’t “go bad” with time alone, like old bread. Older research can be confirmed, expanded, reinterpreted or contradicted by new, better designed or more thorough research. But age alone never invalidates a research study. And it is striking that these 31 studies, conducted over 50-some years, consistently show at least some evidence for sexual orientation shift, every time.

Year Name Published No. of subjects No. experiencing at least some heterosexual shift # counted by H&PC Project as K6/5 to K0/1 shift
1952 Poe, John S. Psychoanalytic Review 1 1 1
1958 Hadfield, J.A. British Medical Journal 9 6 6
1959 Ellis, Albert Journal of Clinical Psychology 1 1 1
1962 Bieber, et al Book: “Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study” 106 29-43 14
1965 Mayerson & Lief Book: “Sexual Inversion: The Multiple Roots of Homosexuality” 19 9 6
1966 Mintz Journal of Consulting Psychology 10 3 3
1966 Hadden International Journal of Group Psychology 32 12 12
1967 Kaye Archives of General Psychiatry ? ? –
1969 Wolpe Book: The Practice of Behavior Therapy 1 1 1
1969 Wallace Psychoanalytic Review 1 1 1
1970 Hatterer Book: Changing Homosexuality in the Male 143 49-67 12
1973 Liss & Weiner American Journal of Psychotherapy 1 1 1
1973 McCrady Journal of Behavioral Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry 1 ? –
1973 Barlow and Agras Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis 2 2 1
1974 Canton-Dutari Archives of Sexual Behavior 54 44-49 15
1975 Freeman and Meyer Behavior Therapy 11 9 4
1976 Callahan Book: Counseling Methods 1 1 1
1978 Socarides Book: Homosexuality 45 20 20
1979 Masters & Johnson Book: Homosexuality in Perspective 67 29 12
1980 Pattison & Pattison American Journal of Psychiatry 11 11 5
1980 Birk Book: Homosexual Behavior: A Modern Reappraisal 29 18 18
1986 Van den Aardweg Book: On the Origins and Treatment of Homosexuality 101 37 5
1992 Shechter International Forum of Psychoanalysis 1 1 1
1993 Golwyn & Sevlie Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 1 1 1
1994 Berger American Journal of Psychotherapy 1 1 1
1994 MacIntosh Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association 1215 276 276
1999 Schaeffer Journal of Psychology and Theology 140 ? –
2000 Schaeffer Journal of Psychology and Christianity 248 ? –
Total 2252 563 (25%) 418 (19%)

 

[CarlaOLS]

And more:

NARTH Survey of Reparative Therapy Clients
In addition to the 28 studies summarized above, the “Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change” project reports on three others. The first, conducted by the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality in 1997, is a survey of 882 individuals who had been in reparative therapy or other intervention programs in an effort to effect a sexual-orientation change.
The anonymous survey found that, before counseling or therapy, 581 men and women out of the 882, or 66%, considered themselves exclusively or almost entirely homosexual (Kinsey 6 or 5). Another 188 (21%) considered themselves more homosexual than heterosexual (Kinsey 4) before treatment.

After treatment, only 111 (13%) considered themselves exclusively or almost entirely homosexual (Kinsey 6 or 5). That’s 470 fewer individuals who placed themselves in this category, post-treatment. And in fact, 282 individuals (32%) described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual after treatment (Kinsey 0 or 1).

Those surveyed also reported significant decreases in the frequency and intensity of their homosexual thoughts – from 63% indicating “very often” before treatment to 3% after treatment. The same was true of sexual behaviors with a partner: 30% had homosexual sex “very often” before treatment, while only 1% did so afterward.

NARTH Survey of Therapists
The second survey was also conducted by the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality in 1997, but this one surveyed 206 therapists and counselors who have counseled individuals who sought to change from a homosexual orientation. Collectively, these 206 professionals had worked with a total of at least 9,702 homosexual clients seeking sexual reorientation.
More than 40% of therapists said that the majority (61% or more) of their clients had either “adopted a primarily heterosexual orientation (not just behavior)” or “experienced a significant decrease in unwanted homosexual thoughts, feelings and behaviors” or both. At an average of 47 clients per therapist, that would represent more than 2,350 clients who experienced a significant homosexual-to-heterosexual shift, according to the therapists who counseled them.

 

[CarlaOLS]

AND one more:

Spitzer Study
The last of the 31 studies summarized by the “Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change” project was conducted by Columbia University psychiatrist Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, who studied “the self-reported experiences of individuals who claim to have achieved a change from homosexual to heterosexual attraction that has lasted at least five years.” (This study was published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior in October 2003.) He located and interviewed 143 men and 57 women who had had a predominantly homosexual attraction for many years (defined as at least 60 on a 100-point scale of sexual attraction, where 0 is exclusively heterosexual and 100 is exclusively homosexual), and who, after therapy, had experienced a heterosexual shift of no less than 10 points, lasting at least 5 years.
Spitzer found that the average level of reported homosexual attraction among the 200 interviewees dropped from 90 (on a 100 point scale) in the 12 months before the change effort began to 19 in the 12 months just prior to the interview. Also:

37 (19%) of the respondents reported “complete” change, with no lingering homosexual thoughts, fantasies or desires.

119 (60%) met Spitzer’s criteria for “good heterosexual functioning” (which included never or rarely having same-sex thoughts during heterosexual sex).
Other Studies
In their book, “Homosexuality: The Use of Scientific Research in the Church’s Moral Debate,” psychologists Dr. Stanton L. Jones and Dr. Mark A. Yarhouse present summary data on 30 research studies conducted between 1954 and 1994. Of these, 13 are also included in New Direction’s “Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change” summary, but 17 are not. These 17 additional studies, conducted mostly in the 1960s and 1970s, present data on 327 subjects. Of these, 108 men and women made a successful shift from primarily homosexual to primarily heterosexual attractions and/or behaviors.

Source: Jones, Stanton L., and Yarhouse, Mark A., Homosexuality: The Use of Scientific Research in the Church’s Moral Debate, InterVarsity Press, 2000, p. 123, 131

Year
Name, Where Published No. of subjects No. experiencing at least some heterosexual shift
1954
Eliasberg, Group Psychotherapy 6 3
1958 Hadden, American Journal of Psychiatry 3 1
1960 Beukenkamp, Archives of General Psychiatry 1 1
1960 Finney, Journal of the Society of Therapists 3 2
1961 Litman, International Journal of Group Psychotherapy 1 In process
1965 Munzer, Topical Problems of Psychotherapy 18 5
1966 Stone, Schengber & Seifried, International Journal of Group Psychotherapy 1 In process
1967 MacCulloch & Feldman, British Medical Journal 35 10
1967 Singer & Fischer, International Journal of Group Psychotherapy 8 4
1970 Johnsgard & Schumacher, Psychotherapy: Theory, Research and Practice 5 0
1970 McConaghy, British Journal of Psychiatry 40 10
1970 Truax, Moeller and Tourney, Journal of the Iowa Medical Society 20 In process
1971 Pittman & DeYoung, International Journal of Group Psychotherapy 6 3
1971 Truax & Tourney, Diseases of the Nervous System 30 20
1972 Covi, Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics 30 In process
1974 Birk, Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 66 14
1984 Schwartz & Masters, American Journal of Psychiatry 54 35
Total 327 108 (33%)

Clearly, to claim that there is “no evidence of successful sexual orientation change” is to be either grossly uninformed or in a state of denial. Reparative therapy has not been discredited. It has simply fallen out of favor since the 1973 vote by the board of the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from its official encyclopedia of mental disorders. The research hasn’t been disproved; it has simply been disenfranchised by the political correctness of the times.

:clapping:

:dancing:

 

[CarlaOLS]

The Benefits of Pursuing Change

Critics like to claim that attempting to change one’s sexual orientation puts one at risk for depression and even suicide. There no doubt have been those who have pursued change for the wrong reasons, or in the wrong ways, and thereby have inadvertently increased the internal conflict and struggle rather than decreasing it. These are unfortunate cases, but what do they prove? Only that that particular therapy or ministry was not helpful or appropriate for those particular individuals at the time. It doesn’t prove that they are not helpful to or appropriate for anyone ever – any more than the grumblings of a few lapsed Catholics would “prove” that Catholicism is harmful to all. Especially when there is significant evidence of others who benefit.

Dr. Robert Spitzer found no evidence of harm among the 200 individuals he surveyed on their experience in reparative therapy and ex-gay ministries. He has stated, “To the contrary, they reported that it was helpful in a variety of ways beyond changing sexual orientation itself.” (BTW I understand Spitzer recieved death threats and found his family in danger from an angry gay activist community. He admits he felt forced to drop his studies in this area for his families sake.)

The NARTH survey of 882 men and women who had pursued change said the therapy was beneficial to their mental health and helped them cope with and reduce their homosexual attractions. They also overwhelmingly rated their experience as positive on a range of variables, including self-acceptance, trust of the opposite sex, self-esteem, emotional stability, relationship with God, and depression. Only 7% of survey respondents said they were doing worse than before the therapy on three or more of 17 measures of psychological well-being.
Our own experience more than bares out those findings.

Jason writes: “The journey has been the hardest thing I’ve ever done, but it was worth it. Today, I am a different man - stronger, healthier, happier, more loving, more confident, more mature. I am a better father, a better husband, a better friend, and a more devoted son of God. I would never trade the peace, growth and healing I have experienced for anything in the world.”

Jerry writes: “I am at the point in my life now where homosexuality is no longer a struggle. I’d have to go through a lot of barricades – psychologically, spiritually and emotionally - to get to the point of acting on any temptation. I am very fulfilled in my life. I no longer want homosexuality in my life. I no longer need it. Today, I identify with other heterosexual men as my peers, my brothers and my equals. I am in love with my wife. I love being a husband and a daddy.”

Tom writes: “I now feel I have successfully transitioned from gay and bisexual to straight. The change is immensely satisfying and rewarding. I started dating women again because I wanted a healthy relationship that would last. I will settle down with one, eventually. I am a stronger man now, better prepared to be in a close relationship, with more to give as a whole man.”

Those who want to believe, whose hearts are open to the whisperings of truth, will know that the experiences we share are true and were right for us.
Whew!

:grouphug:
Now isn’t that GOOD NEWS!
:hug1:

 

[IMAbeliever]

Hi Jack-

First, I want to say I am proud of you for opening your heart to the movement of the Holy Spirit and listening to Truth. Only a few weeks ago, you were entrenched in the Gay Mindset and judging by your comments on this tread, you are slowing moving toward God’s Truth for persons with SSA. This shows humility, wisdom and courage on your part. I am proud of you- esp. in this culture which preaches- “if it feels good, do it”.

You have received much good advice on this tread. I encourage you to re-read Kolbe and ElemTeacher. They both were dead-one in their comments. As Kolbe noted, your goal (true for all of us) is to become the person the God wants you to be-- this path will lead to peace, happiness, fulfillment. Do some reading and praying about your vocation- marriage, priesthood, singlehood.

Remember you are young. The fact that you have the clarity and insight that you do have is a real gift. Do not make plans right now for the rest of your life. Take one day at a time. and pray alot.

I will keep you in my prayers. I have great hopes for you and your future.

Peace–

 

[GW]

Imabeliever said: [This] information is misleading. Physical attraction is a key element in a marriage.

GW: Physical attraction is an element, but not a key element. The more critical and determinative component to long-range marriage success is committed love, service, and friendship. Therefore, even a person with same-sex attraction can use the human will to redirect focus towards the greater project and reward of family love. And in fact, all heterosexuals must sublimate various disoriented sexual attractions and urges if they are to have faithful marriages devoid of rampant adulteries.

Imabeliever: You make it sound like someone can flip a switch on his emotions, desires, attractions.

GW: Incorrect. Rather, I’m assuming that Jack may never fully lose attraction to same sex persons and instead am emphasizing the ability of the human will to sublimate certain innate feelings in the pursuit of higher goals and projects—in this case, the long-term and highly rewarding project of family life.

Imabeliever: You ignore the fact that a person with SSA would continue to be attracted to persons of the same sex. This would be an impediment to the marriage.

GW: I am not ignoring any such thing. To the precise contrary, I’m assuming the person with SSA might continue to have that innate sense of attraction. But mere innate attractions and desires are in no way “impediments” to marriage. If that were the case, every male with innate attractions to lots of women (i.e., nearly all men) would not be capable of entering and fulfilling the vocation of marriage. God calls men to restrict and discipline their innate desires so as to commit themselves to a higher and better good: exclusive life-long family love. Exclusive life-long contracts of any sort are difficult to perform faithfully, but people are nevertheless called to this for the greater good of the family community and all its members.

The only way any marriage can survive for decades is through dedication to the project of family as a collective community of self-giving people.

Mere physical attractions and sexual desires are far too fleeting, to limited to occasional bedroom time, and to powerless to address the real day-to-day and year-to-year work of real family life.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

How can something be properly scientifically tested without data being properly collected? scientific study hinges on collection of accurate and relavent data. How can you collect accurate data regarding to sexual attraction without self reporting. It would be pretty difficult.

Self reporting is an important element but it must be verified via scientific testing.

Anyways, I have studied this issue a bit because I myself have same-sex attraction (SSA).

I’m gay and I don’t consider it a disorder.

Jack1 would recommend that you look into the Spitzer report (partially summarised at narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html)
that indicate that change in one’s sexual orientation may be possible for some.

The Spitzer study suffered from many methodological errors. The most grievous being that all of the participants were “originally” bisexual, the entire study group was hand picked by organizations which provide “reparative therapy”, and the study group was not representative of the general population. All facts which Spitzer admits. Another interesting point to make, which Spitzer agreed with, is that organizations such as NARTH claim to have “helped” thousands of homosexuals become heterosexual but could only produce 274 subjects after well over a year of searching and all of them were “originally” bisexual.

 

[buffalo]

Gay to Straight

Welcome! Chances are you’ve come here looking for answers, and you’ve come to the right place. We’ve designed our website with you in mind. You will find healing solutions for men and women with unwanted same-sex attraction, hope and understanding for parents and loved ones, and training for therapists and ministry leaders. The following pages are full of promise and hope. You can begin by clicking on your link below or the menu on the left. And don’t miss Richard Cohen’s video at the bottom of this page.
"People can and do change their sexual orientation. I’ve done it, and I’ve helped others do the same."
** Richard Cohen, M.A.**

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I must say that I’m deeply troubled by so many here recommending the dubious process of “reparative” therapy.

If the Church’s teaching is correct that the attraction is not a sin, then is not recommending “reparative” therapy simply bowing to some cultural idol of normativity in a way akin to suggesting to every A-cup woman one meets that they have breast enhancement surgery? Is it not like suggesting to someone with freckles that they have them surgically removed?

This is idolatry. Pure and simple. This is the worship of a villainous and wicked social idol who demands, among his requisite sacrifices, offerings of abject mutilation. Our God does not make such demands.

Shame on some of you for paying this grotesque idol your obeisance.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

And don’t miss Richard Cohen’s video at the bottom of this page.

Richard Cohen? Really? This is the guy who claimed to have become heterosexual but had an affair with another man for 3 years and believes that beating up pillows and cuddling with someone of the same sex will turn someone straight. This is the guy who was expelled from the American Counseling Association for ethics violations and whos methods are condemned even by other “ex-gay” organizations.

 

[BobObob]

Grace & Peace!

I must say that I’m deeply troubled by so many here recommending the dubious process of “reparative” therapy.

If the Church’s teaching is correct that the attraction is not a sin, then is not recommending “reparative” therapy simply bowing to some cultural idol of normativity in a way akin to suggesting to every A-cup woman one meets that they have breast enhancement surgery? Is it not like suggesting to someone with freckles that they have them surgically removed?

This is idolatry. Pure and simple. This is the worship of a villainous and wicked social idol who demands, among his requisite sacrifices, offerings of abject mutilation. Our God does not make such demands.

Shame on some of you for paying this grotesque idol your obeisance.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!

I don’t think that most people who pursue reparative therapy do so to conform to the norm. At least I wouldn’t pursue reparative therapy to conform to the norm. Different people may attempt to change their sexual orientation for different reasons. Many, perhaps most, do so in order to more easily follow their conscience in regard to sexual activity, or abstinence from sexual activity (most people who have been able to have their same-sex attractions reduced find it easier to be chaste). Some may do so because they have lived the gay lifestyle their entire life, but yet are unsatisfied with it and would like to try to change their orientation to see if they could live a more fulfilling life that way (this is not internalized homophobia).

I do partly agree with you that conforming your entire life to an extreme degree to the norms of society can be idolatry. Yet, I don’t think that therapy to attempt to change one’s sexual orientation is usually done for the sole purpose of conforming to society. The times when this therapy is pursued for the sole purpose of conformity I’m sure drastically lower the success rates of any of these therapies.

Richard Cohen? Really? This is the guy who claimed to have become heterosexual but had an affair with another man for 3 years and believes that beating up pillows and cuddling with someone of the same sex will turn someone straight. This is the guy who was expelled from the American Counseling Association for ethics violations and whos methods are condemned even by other “ex-gay” organizations.

One problem with reparative therapy is that it simply refers to any therapy that attempts to change one’s orientation. Thus, it can refer to several different kind of therapies. Reparative therapy may refer to Cohen’s “therapy” in which one beats up pillows, or forms of psychoanalysis that deal with possible issues with one’s past that may have contributed to his or her psycho-sexual development (which is a lot more successful than “therapies” from inexperienced therapist, and is often beneficial in other regards even if one’s sexual attractions don’t change at all).

If pursuing any such therapy, one should make sure that they get a good therapist (preferably one who has been a successful therapist before they offered reparative therapy). Otherwise you may get a guy like Richard Cohen who, although has good intentions, I doubt significantly changes people’s sexual orientation.

The Spitzer study suffered from many methodological errors. The most grievous being that all of the participants were “originally” bisexual, the entire study group was hand picked by organizations which provide “reparative therapy”, and the study group was not representative of the general population. All facts which Spitzer admits. Another interesting point to make, which Spitzer agreed with, is that organizations such as NARTH claim to have “helped” thousands of homosexuals become heterosexual but could only produce 274 subjects after well over a year of searching and all of them were “originally” bisexual.

The point of the Spitzer study was not to show that reparative therapy is highly successful in changing one’s attractions, but to merely point out that for some people some significant change can occur. It was not concerned with the degree of success of reparative therapy, only the fact that some success may be possible for some.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

One problem with reparative therapy is that it simply refers to any therapy that attempts to change one’s orientation. Thus, it can refer to several different kind of therapies. Reparative therapy may refer to Cohen’s “therapy” in which one beats up pillows, or forms of psychoanalysis that deal with possible issues with one’s past that may have contributed to his or her psycho-sexual development (which is a lot more successful than “therapies” from inexperienced therapist, and is often beneficial in other regards even if one’s sexual attractions don’t change at all).

If pursuing any such therapy, one should make sure that they get a good therapist (preferably one who has been a successful therapist before they offered reparative therapy). Otherwise you may get a guy like Richard Cohen who, although has good intentions, I doubt significantly changes people’s sexual orientation.

Valid points at last!

The point of the Spitzer study was not to show that reparative therapy is highly successful in changing one’s attractions, but to merely point out that for some people some significant change can occur. It was not concerned with the degree of success of reparative therapy, only the fact that some success may be possible for some.

I don’t believe that this study proved that and Spitzer had his doubts as well. What those organizations did was pair men who were already sexually and emotionally attracted to women with women then declared that a change in sexual orientation had occurred. If they could truly shape a homosexual into a heterosexual then where are the thousands of ex-gays they claim to have created? Even they couldn’t find a single one in the year and a half they had to produce subjects for the study. Additionally, the Spitzer study doesn’t even demonstrate that such change is possible because none of the subjects were “originally” homosexual and none of the claims of the participants were scientifically verified. Even if possible, Spitzer later opined that it would be “quite unusual”.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

The advocacy of reparative therapy is likely one of the reasons why so many homosexuals have the wrong impression about what Catholic teaching really is. If Catholic teaching is correct and homosexual orientation is not in and of itself sinful, then Catholics should have no reason to encourage their homosexual brothers and sisters to try and “change” who they are or to defend such programs.

 

[CarlaOLS]

The advocacy of reparative therapy is likely one of the reasons why so many homosexuals have the wrong impression about what Catholic teaching really is. If Catholic teaching is correct and homosexual orientation is not in and of itself sinful, then Catholics should have no reason to encourage their homosexual brothers and sisters to try and “change” who they are or to defend such programs.

mking - This is a common misconception at least among a few posters here. It falls short of the truth in several key areas.

Sexual orientation is not inborn. The reason it is not sinful is because the person did not consciously choose or cause it. Since it is the result of intertwined factors such as, environment, family/peer relationships, and often a more sensitive personality prone to certain gender issues and since any number of these factors begin in childhood, the resulting attraction (really a symptom of deeper unresolved problems) is by no means under the control of the person, nor is the person able to control the feelings. Although they are able to control and responsible for their actions and fantasies. (The feelings can be controlled after the individual understands where they come from and what they mean for him.)

So you see if you understand the deep emotional/environmental causes, and you can see that over time with the right support, prayers and a determination to truly work at addressing weaknesses and needs etc., **then change is not only an option it is the healthiest path spiritually, emotionally and physically. **

Developing heterosexual attraction IS NOT AND SHOULD NEVER BE CONSIDERED THE GOA. But the fact is for many, as these issues are unravelled and dealt with, and same-sex emotional needs fulfilled in healthy platonic relationships, heterosexual maturity, which was arrested in its development, begins once again to mature.

Do you see why then that those like Jack, who want to change those feelings rather than entertain them by acting out, are actually seeking the path to wholeness?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Would you fly an airline that gets only 30% of its passengers safely to their destinations?

Would you trust a trial lawyer who won only 30% of his cases?

Would you submit to surgery when the surgeon has only 30% of his patients leave the hospital alive?

Despite all the claims made by EXODUS and similar groups, it seems that no more than 30% of their clients ever achieve any kind of heterosexual functioning.

Even NARTH says that their definintion of “successful treatment” is the mere cessation of heterosexual acts. If a person still longing for same-sex intimacy, connection, and love (and I don’t mean necessarily sexual here), that’s sounds like the person is still homosexual.

BTW, Dr. Charles Socarides, who founded NARTH, has an openly gay adult son. If he can’t make his own son grow up to be straight, how can he make other people’s sons and daughters straight?

You haven’t indicated how old you are. It could be you’re merely at the age where all sorts of circuits are being switched on and tested that won’t be used later.

If your wife had terminal cancer that they thought they had a 30% chance of saving her life with an operation, would you take that chance?

If someone said you had a 30% chance to find $100 under a rock in your front yard, would you look?

If 3 people were running for office, should they all give up because they only have a 33% chance to win?

If a person had a 30% chance at winning the lottery, but the ticket cost a week’s earnings, would they take the chance?

---

A poor attempt a rhetoric in my opinion.