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BobObob
Guest
I would recommended that people check out www.homosexuality101.com for a better understanding of samesex attractions.
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D
Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
A different perspective can be found here: courage.org.uk/default.asp (not to be confused with Courage International); or here jgford.homestead.com/ ; or here jamesalison.co.uk/texts/eng53.html .
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
I, too, would recommend this site if one is interested in a very particular perspective on homosexuality–that is, that it is an illness or a disorder which requires therapy.
A different perspective can be found here: courage.org.uk/default.asp (not to be confused with Courage International); or here jgford.homestead.com/ ; or here jamesalison.co.uk/texts/eng53.html .
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
B
BobObob
Guest
It is very notable that a genetic cause for homosexuality has not been found.
Many scientists either don’t look into the area of homosexuality very deeply because they don’t have a particular interest in it, or they are looking into homosexuality because they some bias and they would like the results to reflect their views. I’m not saying that all psychologists and psychiatrists who believe homosexuality is genetic are like this, but the clip below shows how ridiculous some of them are.
youtube.com/watch?v=N9W9pCtCyzs
If anyone would like to know the history behind the views of most professionals on homosexuality, I would recommend that you read Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth.
Many scientists either don’t look into the area of homosexuality very deeply because they don’t have a particular interest in it, or they are looking into homosexuality because they some bias and they would like the results to reflect their views. I’m not saying that all psychologists and psychiatrists who believe homosexuality is genetic are like this, but the clip below shows how ridiculous some of them are.
youtube.com/watch?v=N9W9pCtCyzs
If anyone would like to know the history behind the views of most professionals on homosexuality, I would recommend that you read Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth.
C
CarlaOLS
Guest
:clapping:
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Annn
Guest
Hi, I’d just like to suggest that it’s possible that the comorbidity of homosexuality and mental illness may be possibly attributed to the fact that homosexuals experience stigma in the society and, often, alienation from family and friends. I’m not sure what it feels like to be gay for others, but I know that I suffered (not to a pathological extent, but I could see how it could get that hard) knowing that my family and friends would not handle my “coming out” very well.
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CarlaOLS
Guest
NOPE - the statistical evidence shows otherwise.
In countries with high tolerance and societal acceptance, laws protecting so-called rights etc… the high levels of depression, alcoholism and suicide are the same as in more conservative countries where homosexuality is not accepted.
So it has everything to do with their inner turmoil and confliction of living outside of the truth that was placed in their hearts at conception.
The difficulties you speak of are real, and the worry over the reaction and or acceptance of family and friends is natural, but it is not enough to cause those levels of suicide and self-destructive behavior. Those are caused by self-hatred, guilt and hopelessness over what these poor souls see as an unchangeable factor in their make-up that can not be reconciled with their faith.
BUT it isn’t - unchangeable, and their SSA isn’t contrary to the faith.
I’m sorry for all you have to suffer. God works in mysterious ways and everything you suffer will be used for good for those who love HIm. He wants you to be whole, healed and chaste.
There is hope in change and hope in CONQUERING SSA WITH CHRIST!
I send you my prayers and love - pray and search for truth.
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Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
BobObob, is your tendency of late to post public service announcements for your pseudo-scientific position in addition to irony drenched youtube videos an indication that you’re bowing out of the discussion?
Just curious.
And Carla, the conclusion you draw that depressed gay people are suffering from “inner turmoil” brought on from a suppressed consciousness that they are “living outside of the truth” is so nebulous and clearly speculative that any interpretive weight it could possibly carry is entirely negligible.
I am also reminded of Disraeli’s (or Twain’s, depending on whom you ask) lovely quotation which serves as a warning to all sides of this debate: “there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
BobObob, is your tendency of late to post public service announcements for your pseudo-scientific position in addition to irony drenched youtube videos an indication that you’re bowing out of the discussion?
Just curious.
And Carla, the conclusion you draw that depressed gay people are suffering from “inner turmoil” brought on from a suppressed consciousness that they are “living outside of the truth” is so nebulous and clearly speculative that any interpretive weight it could possibly carry is entirely negligible.
I am also reminded of Disraeli’s (or Twain’s, depending on whom you ask) lovely quotation which serves as a warning to all sides of this debate: “there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
A
Annn
Guest
Hi. Your post doesn’t make sense - you say that in “tolerant” countries mental health issues are just as prevalent in “intolerant” countries. The problem with this statement is A.) many of the “most intolerant” (have harsh legal punishment for homosexual behavior, for example) countries have not had extensive studies done on their homosexual populations and B.) no country is actually all that tolerant. “Tolerance” for queerness is a very modern phenomenon, and even in countries like the US which are beginning to provide legal benefits for partners and in which homosexuality is not a crime and many gays are “open,” many many people are still not tolerant of the behavior - especially the older generations. So basically, it seems you do not know what you are talking about. Also, thanks anyway for your prayers, but I am happy, healthy, and satisfied with my life the way it is at the moment.NOPE - the statistical evidence shows otherwise.
In countries with high tolerance and societal acceptance, laws protecting so-called rights etc… the high levels of depression, alcoholism and suicide are the same as in more conservative countries where homosexuality is not accepted.
So it has everything to do with their inner turmoil and confliction of living outside of the truth that was placed in their hearts at conception.
The difficulties you speak of are real, and the worry over the reaction and or acceptance of family and friends is natural, but it is not enough to cause those levels of suicide and self-destructive behavior. Those are caused by self-hatred, guilt and hopelessness over what these poor souls see as an unchangeable factor in their make-up that can not be reconciled with their faith.
BUT it isn’t - unchangeable, and their SSA isn’t contrary to the faith.
I’m sorry for all you have to suffer. God works in mysterious ways and everything you suffer will be used for good for those who love HIm. He wants you to be whole, healed and chaste.
There is hope in change and hope in CONQUERING SSA WITH CHRIST!
I send you my prayers and love - pray and search for truth.
L
learningtheway
Guest
Jack, my advice is for you to watch the documentary For The Bible Tells Me So.
I have a best friend who is gay but because of even still today people like the Phelps family think they’re better than everyone he won’t admit it. Just check out FTBTMS once, you won’t regret it.
I have a best friend who is gay but because of even still today people like the Phelps family think they’re better than everyone he won’t admit it. Just check out FTBTMS once, you won’t regret it.
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mkingdomlvr
Guest
I find the whole Church attitude confusing. On the one hand, we’re told that it’s not a sin to be homosexual as long as you don’t act on it, but on the other hand you have people trying to get homosexuals “cured”. Chaste homosexuals are supposed to be good people, but they aren’t good enough for the Priesthood.
I know that there are homosexual people who drink, use drugs and have mental health issues-but there are also heterosexuals who suffer the same problems. The only reason that it seems like more homosexuals have issues is that you’re starting with a smaller population. Smaller population means that even a few with problems create a larger percentage.
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Annn
Guest
I have never read that the Catholic Church advocates reparative therapy; most of the places I’ve read of where one can [allegedly] go to be “cured” are run by non-Catholic Christians. The Church’s teachings on homosexuality don’t state that people can change their orientation, just that they can control their behavior.
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gardenswithkids
Guest
Some people with homosexual attractions want to change to a heterosexual attraction, if possible. I find it confusing that some people would deny those who want to change a chance to try.
As for the priesthood, being a priest is not simply a matter of being “good enough”. Women cannot be Catholic priests. Married men aren’t typically allowed to be Roman Catholic priests either. Priests act “in persona Christi” and take the Church as their “bride”, in imitation of Christ. We find the marriage analogy of the Bridegroom (Jesus) and the Bride (Church) throughout the New Testament.
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BobObob
Guest
It is not the position of the Church that homosexuals should seek to become “cured”, although the Church is not necessarily opposed to attempts to change one’s orientation either…
The priesthood is an extreme privilege and a calling, not a right. Whether or not someone is called to be a priesthood is not based off of how they rank in terms of goodness. There are many reasons why the Church may deny some people’s entrance into the priesthood. It is not a matter of Church doctrine that certain men reach the qualifications for priesthood or not, but a matter of Church policy. Homosexuals are barred from the priesthood, I believe, because a high percentage of homosexual priests have caused problems in the past and they tend to be a higher risk than most others for several reasons.
From what I have heard from homosexuals, and from my own experience as someone with homosexual attractions (although I have never and will never be homosexually active), they tend to have various problems and often feel socially isolated before they go through puberty and are attracted to other guys.
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BobObob
Guest
I sometime like to present material over the course of time in bite sized pieces so that a casual viewer of the post will digest it easier. Sometimes I like to add something that is hysterical as well, even if it may not represent the entire other side.
By the way, my original reason for entering the forum was to share some knowledge with some of my beloved brothers, like Jack17, that I think could benefit them. I think that engaging in long discussions with you on this forum was partly pushed by my pride to “beat” someone who clearly disagrees with me and posts often, which selfishly takes away from what this forum was originally about.
For the rest of this message, Deo Volente, check your PMs.
H
Holly3278
Guest
I would encourage you to check out Courage Apostolate, an apostolate devoted to homosexuals. Also, there are some organizations out there that focus on therapy for homosexuals to become heterosexuals and this, in some cases, has worked. Here is a link to NARTH, the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.
narth.com/
narth.com/
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mkingdomlvr
Guest
That’s why it confuses me-there seem to be levels of conversation and attitude going on. There’s the official teaching and then there’s what Catholics actually think and how they act regarding their homosexual brothers and sisters.
I admit that I’m very concerned about advocating that people try to “change” their orientation-who knows what kind of emotional damage could occur if the person “fails”?
those of you who advocate such things-what if the situation was reversed? What if it was YOU that was considered outside of normal? Could you “change”?
C
CarlaOLS
Guest
Mking and Ann with all due respect - you are just not listening. You are holding onto your agenda for whatever personal reasons.
The Church does not take a stand on the medical aspect of curing SSA, but she also very much acknowledges that it is possible and that she supports those who choose that path. What she does make clear is that ALL are called to chastity in their state of life and that all sexual acts outside of marriage are sins. Wityh that in mind CoOURAGE concentrates on the person’s spiritual life and chastity. Courage even acknowledges that some of its members have developed natural heterosexual desires after living chastely and faithfully for a while. BUT DEVELOPING HETEROSEXUAL DESIRES IS NEVER THE GOAL because SEXUAL DESIRE IS NOT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM!!
Here’s a little more from the Catholic Medical Association (which porganization certainly speaks scientifically for the Church)
*For a Catholic with same sex attraction, the goal of therapy should be freedom to live chastely according to one’s state in life. Some of those who have struggled with same-sex attractions believe that they are called to a celibate life. They should not be made to feel that they have failed to achieve freedom because they do not experience desires for the other sex. Others wish to marry and have children. There is every reason to hope that many will be able, in time, to achieve this goal. They should not, however, be encouraged to rush into marriage since there is ample evidence that marriage is not a cure for same-sex attractions. With the power of grace, the sacraments, support from the community, and an experienced therapist, a determined individual should be able to achieve the inner freedom promised by Christ.
Experienced therapists can help individuals uncover and understand the root causes of the emotional trauma which gave rise to their same sex attractions and then work in therapy to resolve this pain. Men experiencing same-sex attractions often discover how their masculine identify was negatively effected by feelings of rejection from father or peers or from a poor body image which result in sadness, anger and insecurity. As this emotional pain is healed in therapy, the masculine identity is strengthened and same sex attractions diminish.
Women with same sex attractions can come to see how conflicts with fathers and/or other significant males led them to mistrust male love, or how lack of maternal affection led to a deep longing for female love. Insight into causes of anger and sadness will hopefully lead to forgiveness and freedom. All this takes time. In this respect individuals suffering from same-sex attraction are no different than the many other men and women who have emotional pain and need to learn how to forgive.
Catholic therapists working with Catholic individuals should feel free to use the wealth of Catholic spirituality in this healing process. Those with father wounds can be encouraged to develop their relationship with God as a loving father. Those who were rejected or ridiculed by peers as youngsters can meditate upon the Jesus as brother, friend, and protector. Those who feel unmothered can turn to Mary for comfort.
There is every reason for hope that with time those who seek freedom will find it. However, while we can encourage hope, we must recognize that, there are some who will not achieve their goals. We may find ourselves in the same position as a pediatric oncologist who spoke of how when he first began his practice there was almost no hope for children stricken with cancer and the physician’s duty was to help the parents accept the inevitable and not waste their resources chasing a “cure.” Today almost 70% of the children recover, but each death leaves the medical team with a terrible feeling of failure. As the prevention and treatment of same-sex attraction improves, the individuals who still struggle will, more than ever, need compassionate and sensitive support.
PART II RECOMMENDATIONS
The Church does not take a stand on the medical aspect of curing SSA, but she also very much acknowledges that it is possible and that she supports those who choose that path. What she does make clear is that ALL are called to chastity in their state of life and that all sexual acts outside of marriage are sins. Wityh that in mind CoOURAGE concentrates on the person’s spiritual life and chastity. Courage even acknowledges that some of its members have developed natural heterosexual desires after living chastely and faithfully for a while. BUT DEVELOPING HETEROSEXUAL DESIRES IS NEVER THE GOAL because SEXUAL DESIRE IS NOT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM!!
Here’s a little more from the Catholic Medical Association (which porganization certainly speaks scientifically for the Church)
*For a Catholic with same sex attraction, the goal of therapy should be freedom to live chastely according to one’s state in life. Some of those who have struggled with same-sex attractions believe that they are called to a celibate life. They should not be made to feel that they have failed to achieve freedom because they do not experience desires for the other sex. Others wish to marry and have children. There is every reason to hope that many will be able, in time, to achieve this goal. They should not, however, be encouraged to rush into marriage since there is ample evidence that marriage is not a cure for same-sex attractions. With the power of grace, the sacraments, support from the community, and an experienced therapist, a determined individual should be able to achieve the inner freedom promised by Christ.
Experienced therapists can help individuals uncover and understand the root causes of the emotional trauma which gave rise to their same sex attractions and then work in therapy to resolve this pain. Men experiencing same-sex attractions often discover how their masculine identify was negatively effected by feelings of rejection from father or peers or from a poor body image which result in sadness, anger and insecurity. As this emotional pain is healed in therapy, the masculine identity is strengthened and same sex attractions diminish.
Women with same sex attractions can come to see how conflicts with fathers and/or other significant males led them to mistrust male love, or how lack of maternal affection led to a deep longing for female love. Insight into causes of anger and sadness will hopefully lead to forgiveness and freedom. All this takes time. In this respect individuals suffering from same-sex attraction are no different than the many other men and women who have emotional pain and need to learn how to forgive.
Catholic therapists working with Catholic individuals should feel free to use the wealth of Catholic spirituality in this healing process. Those with father wounds can be encouraged to develop their relationship with God as a loving father. Those who were rejected or ridiculed by peers as youngsters can meditate upon the Jesus as brother, friend, and protector. Those who feel unmothered can turn to Mary for comfort.
There is every reason for hope that with time those who seek freedom will find it. However, while we can encourage hope, we must recognize that, there are some who will not achieve their goals. We may find ourselves in the same position as a pediatric oncologist who spoke of how when he first began his practice there was almost no hope for children stricken with cancer and the physician’s duty was to help the parents accept the inevitable and not waste their resources chasing a “cure.” Today almost 70% of the children recover, but each death leaves the medical team with a terrible feeling of failure. As the prevention and treatment of same-sex attraction improves, the individuals who still struggle will, more than ever, need compassionate and sensitive support.
PART II RECOMMENDATIONS
- MINISTRY TO INDIVIDUALS EXPERIENCING SAME-SEX ATTRACTIONS
C
CarlaOLS
Guest
Mking and Ann with all due respect - you are just not listening. You are holding onto your agenda for whatever personal reasons.
The Church does not take a stand on the medical aspect of curing SSA, but she also very much acknowledges that it is possible and that she supports those who choose that path. What she does make clear is that ALL are called to chastity in their state of life and that all sexual acts outside of marriage are sins. Wityh that in mind CoOURAGE concentrates on the person’s spiritual life and chastity. Courage even acknowledges that some of its members have developed natural heterosexual desires after living chastely and faithfully for a while. BUT DEVELOPING HETEROSEXUAL DESIRES IS NEVER THE GOAL because SEXUAL DESIRE IS NOT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM!!
Here’s a little more from the Catholic Medical Association (which porganization certainly speaks scientifically for the Church)
*For a Catholic with same sex attraction, the goal of therapy should be freedom to live chastely according to one’s state in life. Some of those who have struggled with same-sex attractions believe that they are called to a celibate life. They should not be made to feel that they have failed to achieve freedom because they do not experience desires for the other sex. Others wish to marry and have children. There is every reason to hope that many will be able, in time, to achieve this goal. They should not, however, be encouraged to rush into marriage since there is ample evidence that marriage is not a cure for same-sex attractions. With the power of grace, the sacraments, support from the community, and an experienced therapist, a determined individual should be able to achieve the inner freedom promised by Christ.
Experienced therapists can help individuals uncover and understand the root causes of the emotional trauma which gave rise to their same sex attractions and then work in therapy to resolve this pain. Men experiencing same-sex attractions often discover how their masculine identify was negatively effected by feelings of rejection from father or peers or from a poor body image which result in sadness, anger and insecurity. As this emotional pain is healed in therapy, the masculine identity is strengthened and same sex attractions diminish.
Women with same sex attractions can come to see how conflicts with fathers and/or other significant males led them to mistrust male love, or how lack of maternal affection led to a deep longing for female love. Insight into causes of anger and sadness will hopefully lead to forgiveness and freedom. All this takes time. In this respect individuals suffering from same-sex attraction are no different than the many other men and women who have emotional pain and need to learn how to forgive.
Catholic therapists working with Catholic individuals should feel free to use the wealth of Catholic spirituality in this healing process. Those with father wounds can be encouraged to develop their relationship with God as a loving father. Those who were rejected or ridiculed by peers as youngsters can meditate upon the Jesus as brother, friend, and protector. Those who feel unmothered can turn to Mary for comfort.
There is every reason for hope that with time those who seek freedom will find it. However, while we can encourage hope, we must recognize that, there are some who will not achieve their goals. We may find ourselves in the same position as a pediatric oncologist who spoke of how when he first began his practice there was almost no hope for children stricken with cancer and the physician’s duty was to help the parents accept the inevitable and not waste their resources chasing a “cure.” Today almost 70% of the children recover, but each death leaves the medical team with a terrible feeling of failure. As the prevention and treatment of same-sex attraction improves, the individuals who still struggle will, more than ever, need compassionate and sensitive support.
PART II RECOMMENDATIONS
The Church does not take a stand on the medical aspect of curing SSA, but she also very much acknowledges that it is possible and that she supports those who choose that path. What she does make clear is that ALL are called to chastity in their state of life and that all sexual acts outside of marriage are sins. Wityh that in mind CoOURAGE concentrates on the person’s spiritual life and chastity. Courage even acknowledges that some of its members have developed natural heterosexual desires after living chastely and faithfully for a while. BUT DEVELOPING HETEROSEXUAL DESIRES IS NEVER THE GOAL because SEXUAL DESIRE IS NOT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM!!
Here’s a little more from the Catholic Medical Association (which porganization certainly speaks scientifically for the Church)
*For a Catholic with same sex attraction, the goal of therapy should be freedom to live chastely according to one’s state in life. Some of those who have struggled with same-sex attractions believe that they are called to a celibate life. They should not be made to feel that they have failed to achieve freedom because they do not experience desires for the other sex. Others wish to marry and have children. There is every reason to hope that many will be able, in time, to achieve this goal. They should not, however, be encouraged to rush into marriage since there is ample evidence that marriage is not a cure for same-sex attractions. With the power of grace, the sacraments, support from the community, and an experienced therapist, a determined individual should be able to achieve the inner freedom promised by Christ.
Experienced therapists can help individuals uncover and understand the root causes of the emotional trauma which gave rise to their same sex attractions and then work in therapy to resolve this pain. Men experiencing same-sex attractions often discover how their masculine identify was negatively effected by feelings of rejection from father or peers or from a poor body image which result in sadness, anger and insecurity. As this emotional pain is healed in therapy, the masculine identity is strengthened and same sex attractions diminish.
Women with same sex attractions can come to see how conflicts with fathers and/or other significant males led them to mistrust male love, or how lack of maternal affection led to a deep longing for female love. Insight into causes of anger and sadness will hopefully lead to forgiveness and freedom. All this takes time. In this respect individuals suffering from same-sex attraction are no different than the many other men and women who have emotional pain and need to learn how to forgive.
Catholic therapists working with Catholic individuals should feel free to use the wealth of Catholic spirituality in this healing process. Those with father wounds can be encouraged to develop their relationship with God as a loving father. Those who were rejected or ridiculed by peers as youngsters can meditate upon the Jesus as brother, friend, and protector. Those who feel unmothered can turn to Mary for comfort.
There is every reason for hope that with time those who seek freedom will find it. However, while we can encourage hope, we must recognize that, there are some who will not achieve their goals. We may find ourselves in the same position as a pediatric oncologist who spoke of how when he first began his practice there was almost no hope for children stricken with cancer and the physician’s duty was to help the parents accept the inevitable and not waste their resources chasing a “cure.” Today almost 70% of the children recover, but each death leaves the medical team with a terrible feeling of failure. As the prevention and treatment of same-sex attraction improves, the individuals who still struggle will, more than ever, need compassionate and sensitive support.
PART II RECOMMENDATIONS
- MINISTRY TO INDIVIDUALS EXPERIENCING SAME-SEX ATTRACTIONS
M
mkingdomlvr
Guest
It would seem to me that you are the one protecting an agenda, or you would not feel the need to respond with such an angry tone when someone questions it or disagrees.
I feel that both the position of the sources you cite and the position of the AMA and the APA are both operating with a bias. Your sources clearly have a bias wanting to support Catholic teaching, the AMA and the APA are responding to bias in society.
Somewhere in the middle of those two biases, we might find a kernel of truth.
A
Annn
Guest
Carla, your post operates on the assumption that gay people are gay because of some trauma that happened in their lives. Even if for some people this is true, my personal experience does not involve any trauma: I am one of six children and the only gay one. We were raised by parents of means who love one another very much. We attended good schools, played sports and did art, and have many friends. My life was pretty good and still is, and I turned out gay. So therapy meant to help me acknowledge the trauma that happened to me would lead to a lot of 
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