gay wedding

[Bookcat]

A!

It’s a matter of prudence: will your attendance be more likely to promote the ultimate salvation of your son - and partner - or will your non-attendance? That is the touchstone. .

Prudence is *never *about choosing evil. It is never about choosing to do what is an approval and celebration of grave evil.

1806 Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; “the prudent man looks where he is going.”

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm#1806

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them: by participating directly and voluntarily in them…advising, praising, or approving them…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#V

And to borrow from Jimmy Akin’s (senior apologist at Catholic Answers) response to a different wedding question -the reason I quote is because of the explanation of the meaning of “attendance”:

“I would not attend such a wedding. In our culture, at least, attendance at a wedding represents a form of endorsement of and participation in the rite that is being enacted. For me to attend such a wedding would represent my endorsement of and participation in a sacrilegious rite, and that is something I will not do.” (from his blog)

---

Yes let all be done with great gentleness and great love but there are means that are not in keeping with truth and love and attending a gay wedding (including the scandal involved) is not the right means.

And someone brought up “unconditional love”. Any love of a person includes what all love wants: the authentic good of the other. It is contrary to the authentic good of that person to celebrate this event. And to affirm them on this very seriously dangerous path - that risks their eternal good. And also gives scandal to others including children.

 

[Bookcat]

because we love her unconditionally we would attend.

And such would be an act against her. An act against love.

 

[johnnykins]

Prudence is *never *about choosing evil. It is never about choosing to do what is an approval and celebration of grave evil.

1806 Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; “the prudent man looks where he is going.”

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm#1806

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them: by participating directly and voluntarily in them…advising, praising, or approving them…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#V

And to borrow from Jimmy Akin’s (senior apologist at Catholic Answers) response to a different wedding question -the reason I quote is because of the explanation of the meaning of “attendance”:

“I would not attend such a wedding. In our culture, at least, attendance at a wedding represents a form of endorsement of and participation in the rite that is being enacted. For me to attend such a wedding would represent my endorsement of and participation in a sacrilegious rite, and that is something I will not do.” (from his blog)

---

Yes let all be done with great gentleness and great love but there are means that are not in keeping with truth and love and attending a gay wedding (including the scandal involved) is not the right means.

Well if your touchstone is not the ultimate salvation of souls, you don’t understand anything you wrote above.

 

[Bookcat]

Well if your touchstone is not the ultimate salvation of souls, you don’t understand anything you wrote above.

And in fact by showing up and confirming them in that choice - one is actually nudging them down the road away from salvation. And giving scandal…and risking others being confirmed in their misguided path.

Read again what I wrote in the many posts above and what the Church Teaches.

The Church is quite desirous of the salvation of souls.

One does not go about seeking the salvation of souls by choosing evil means.

In fact one may not do so. It is sinful.

The ends do not justify the means.

One must choose good means to the good end.

I am not saying one should yell at them or treat them badly or harshly or ignore them etc etc --of course not. That too can be choosing a bad means. One must use great love but love without truth (or with actions contrary to truth) is not love.

All must be done with great love and gentleness and truth.

 

[Bookcat]

Q:

How do we deal with our daughter’s same-sex “wedding”?

How do I address this serious dilemma: Our daughter is planning to openly exchange wedding vows with her same-sex partner next year. Our daughter has been openly gay for ten years, and has been committed to her partner for over three years. My wife and I have explained with charity that we cannot be a witness to this so-called marriage, but we are committed to continue to love the two of them as only parents can. They are respectful with us, but we know our absence from the ceremony will be a bitter pill for them to swallow. Can you give us any guidance on how to cope with the rift in our future relationship with our daughter and her future spouse?

A:

It sounds like you’ve already done what you must do and are now vacillating because of your daughter’s anticipated response. I know this is hard, but you must allow her to feel whatever she is going to feel. If she is upset or bitter because you cannot violate your own conscience to participate in sacrilege (which is what an abuse of the sacrament of matrimony indeed is), that, to be blunt, is her dilemma. Perhaps if her own family remains strong in their convictions by not participating in her ceremony, she will understand how serious the consequences of what she is doing. Trying to soothe her would be fruitless and counter-productive.

I do advise that you stop referring to your daughter’s lesbian “partner” as her “spouse.” To do so lends credibility to what they are trying to do. For lack of a better word, you could use the term “partner,” but I would recommend avoiding that whenever possible, especially to them or to outsiders who may misinterpret your use of the term as approving of the relationship. Treat your daughter’s companion as you would if the woman were your daughter’s platonic roommate, not as you would a daughter-in-law.

Michelle Arnold Michelle
Catholic Answers Apologist

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=517178&highlight=gay+wedding

and

another: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=826842&highlight=gay+wedding

 

[Adonia]

Prudence is *never *about choosing evil. It is never about choosing to do what is an approval and celebration of grave evil.

1806 Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; “the prudent man looks where he is going.”

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm#1806

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them: by participating directly and voluntarily in them…advising, praising, or approving them…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#V

And to borrow from Jimmy Akin’s (senior apologist at Catholic Answers) response to a different wedding question -the reason I quote is because of the explanation of the meaning of “attendance”:

“I would not attend such a wedding. In our culture, at least, attendance at a wedding represents a form of endorsement of and participation in the rite that is being enacted. For me to attend such a wedding would represent my endorsement of and participation in a sacrilegious rite, and that is something I will not do.” (from his blog)

---

Yes let all be done with great gentleness and great love but there are means that are not in keeping with truth and love and attending a gay wedding (including the scandal involved) is not the right means.

And someone brought up “unconditional love”. Any love of a person includes what all love wants: the authentic good of the other. It is contrary to the authentic good of that person to celebrate this event. And to affirm them on this very seriously dangerous path - that risks their eternal good. And also gives scandal to others including children.

Yes, I brought up “unconditional love”. Thankfully this has not come up yet, but am I not giving some sort of “imprimatur” when my stepdaughter and her “friend” come over to my house? Am I encouraging them in sin by having anything to do with them at all, at any level? Maybe we should shun them, no? The fact is she knows our viewpoint on the matter in no uncertain terms.

In the end, this is a very personal decision and I have heard people on Catholic Radio say that only the people involved can really make that decision. Like the Holy Father said: “Who am I to judge”?

 

[commenter]

I can see the point of view of the posters who emphasize our unconditional love for our children; that we should go to such a service (after privately communicating our views to our loved one) because we are there to support the person, not the “marriage”. That our going helps maintain the relationship, that in the future may be used for evangelism - even to communicate the Christian view of marriage, when our son is ready to hear it.

I just don’t agree with this view. If you have a good relationship worth maintaining, they will respect your own religious views, and not judge you for not attending. If your son was raised Christian, they are aware Christianity is against gay marriage, and there likely is a part of your son that still knows that, even if they go ahead with the ceremony. That part of his conscience might be the “hook” God may use to someday draw your son out of homosexual activity (I don’t say God would make him not be homosexual, only referring to activity).

Your not attending this ceremony, but maintaining a loving relationship with him, can help activate that part of his conscience. Your attendance here helps confirm that what he’s doing here is normal; it helps stifle that part of his conscience. Your attendance now makes it a little harder for him to see the truth now and later on.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, I brought up “unconditional love”. Thankfully this has not come up yet.,but am I not giving some sort of “imprimatur” when my stepdaughter and her “friend” come over my house? Am I encouraging them in sin by having anything at all to do with them?

I do not know I am not there. I imagine it depends on what one is doing, saying or not doing…

 

[Adonia]

I do not know I am not there. I imagine it depends on what one is doing, saying or not doing…

See, you can understand how it can be very difficult.

 

[Bookcat]

Like the Holy Father said: “Who am I to judge”?

Yes. As Jesus said “judge not” but what was meant?. And he also said “go and sin no more”.

What does judging mean?

blog.adw.org/2010/06/correcting-the-sinner-is-not-being-judgmental-it-is-an-essential-work-of-charity/

blog.adw.org/2009/11/fraternal-correction-the-forgotten-virtue/

How are we to help our brother? *(and he us) (from Pope Benedict XVI): vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

(start second paragraph)

WE are not to sin by approving etc…by celebrating a “homosexual union”. Nor confirm others in their objectively gravely sinful way of acting and choices.

 

[Bookcat]

““Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten:* fraternal correction* in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other. As the Apostle Paul says: “If one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way” (Gal 6:1). In a world pervaded by individualism, it is essential to rediscover the importance of fraternal correction, so that together we may journey towards holiness. Scripture tells us that even “the upright falls seven times” (Prov 24:16); all of us are weak and imperfect (cf. 1 Jn 1:8). It is a great service, then, to help others and allow them to help us, so that we can be open to the whole truth about ourselves, improve our lives and walk more uprightly in the Lord’s ways. There will always be a need for a gaze which loves and admonishes, which knows and understands, which discerns and forgives (cf. Lk 22:61), as God has done and continues to do with each of us.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI (message for Lent) vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

 

[OraLabora]

I can see the point of view of the posters who emphasize our unconditional love for our children; that we should go to such a service (after privately communicating our views to our loved one) because we are there to support the person, not the “marriage”. That our going helps maintain the relationship, that in the future may be used for evangelism - even to communicate the Christian view of marriage, when our son is ready to hear it.

I just don’t agree with this view. If you have a good relationship worth maintaining, they will respect your own religious views, and not judge you for not attending. If your son was raised Christian, they are aware Christianity is against gay marriage, and there likely is a part of your son that still knows that, even if they go ahead with the ceremony. That part of his conscience might be the “hook” God may use to someday draw your son out of homosexual activity (I don’t say God would make him not be homosexual, only referring to activity).

Your not attending this ceremony, but maintaining a loving relationship with him, can help activate that part of his conscience. Your attendance here helps confirm that what he’s doing here is normal; it helps stifle that part of his conscience. Your attendance now makes it a little harder for him to see the truth now and later on.

As was pointed out this is a very individual decision for a specific family under their own private circumstances. It isn’t possible for us here to propose a “one size fits all” response. As I’m sure you’re aware many family relationships, including parent-offspring relationships, can be very difficult. One has to use prudential judgement and weigh whether not attending would worsen an already tense relationship, and drive the child out of the parents’ influence completely.

You’re supposing that a child always respects a parent’s religious beliefs but that’s not always the case; many children, even of adult age, are not particularly mature in that respect.

That said, if an adult child has formulated beliefs different than our own, we also owe them, at the very least, to respect that belief even while disagreeing with it. Respect cuts both ways.

 

[Bookcat]

" It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (from above link)

 

[commenter]

Yes, I brought up “unconditional love”. Thankfully this has not come up yet, but am I not giving some sort of “imprimatur” when my stepdaughter and her “friend” come over to my house? Am I encouraging them in sin by having anything to do with them at all, at any level? Maybe we should shun them, no? The fact is she knows our viewpoint on the matter in no uncertain terms.

In the end, this is a very personal decision and I have heard people on Catholic Radio say that only the people involved can really make that decision. Like the Holy Father said: “Who am I to judge”?

You can welcome your daughter, and her “friend” at your house. There is no reason you should “shun” them. But you would treat them as individuals not as you would your son and daughter-in-law for instance.
Re: the Holy Father, keep in mind he opposes gay marriage. In Argentina and in Rome he has judged that it hurts people, and is evil. Yes, of course, like Pope Francis we also should judge that gay marriage harms people; like smoking harms people, in a different way. That being said, we can’t judge that I am holier than every person in a gay marriage, any more than I can judge that I am healthier than every smoker. I don’t know that, so I can’t judge. But I can, and should, judge that every person in a gay marriage is less holy than they would be if they refrained from that. Every person in a gay marriage would be holier if they pulled out of that.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

Hello! Can my wife and I attend my gay son’s wedding? It probably won’t be in any church, but we would like to be there.

Go. Love your son. Don’t hurt him or lose him by refusing to attend. Don’t give him a basis for rejecting the Catholic faith. Love him even if you don’t approve or have mixed feelings about his “marriage”.

 

[Bookcat]

Go. Love your son.

Love that is contrary to the good of the son and to truth* is not love*. It is to act contrary to love.

See my various posts above from the Catechism, Pope Benedict XVI et al.

One loves one’s Son in truth and gentleness - with great love yes -

but not by approving by ones attendance at - (“ones attending the celebration”) -something that is gravely harmful to them and who celebrate such.

 

[Adonia]

Yes. As Jesus said “judge not” but what was meant?. And he also said “go and sin no more”.

What does judging mean?

blog.adw.org/2010/06/correcting-the-sinner-is-not-being-judgmental-it-is-an-essential-work-of-charity/

blog.adw.org/2009/11/fraternal-correction-the-forgotten-virtue/

How are we to help our brother? *(and he us) (from Pope Benedict XVI): vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

(start second paragraph)

WE are not to sin by approving etc…by celebrating a “homosexual union”. Nor confirm others in their objectively gravely sinful way of acting and choices.

Admonish? Been there, done that. The only thing my wife and I can do is to be a Christian example to her. She does come to Mass with us at times and there is always hope for a true conversion. We keep praying for her.

 

[Bookcat]

We keep praying for her.

As did the Mother of St. Augustine when he was involved in his very disordered ways…and now we have a Doctor of the Church.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

Love that is contrary to the good of the son and to truth* is not love*. It is to act contrary to love.

See my various posts above from the Catechism, Pope Benedict XVI et al.

One loves one’s Son in truth and gentleness - with great love yes -

but not by approving by ones attendance at - (“ones attending the celebration”) -something that is gravely harmful to them.

Attending the ceremony does not necessarily mean that the person “approves” what is transpiring. We want to keep avenues of communication open. Mortifying our will and attending may be what it takes to keep our child or friend open to returning to the faith. Refusing to attend on religious grounds may destroy the relationship and turn the person away from the faith.

 

[Thorolfr]

As was pointed out this is a very individual decision for a specific family under their own private circumstances. It isn’t possible for us here to propose a “one size fits all” response. As I’m sure you’re aware many family relationships, including parent-offspring relationships, can be very difficult. One has to use prudential judgement and weigh whether not attending would worsen an already tense relationship, and drive the child out of the parents’ influence completely.

You’re supposing that a child always respects a parent’s religious beliefs but that’s not always the case; many children, even of adult age, are not particularly mature in that respect.

That said, if an adult child has formulated beliefs different than our own, we also owe them, at the very least, to respect that belief even while disagreeing with it. Respect cuts both ways.

I agree that this is a difficult situation, but would also advise the father to go to his son’s wedding. Not attending might rupture a loving relationship that can have very long term consequences. If he wants to take that chance, he can, but I would advise against it.

My own partner and I have been together for almost 18 years and his father (a retired Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor) mostly pretends that I don’t exist. His father addresses Christmas cards only to his son, and only sends birthday cards to his son. At family reunions, it has been made clear that I would not be welcome to attend with my partner. As a result, my partner has hardly talked to his father in 18 years, throws away cards, letters and gifts from him unopened, does not answer his emails, and does not attend family reunions, etc. His father just turned 80 and I doubt that there will be any reconciliation between father and son before his father dies. I know that this situation has been very painful for both the father and the son.