gay wedding

[Bookcat]

Attending the ceremony does not necessarily mean that the person “approves” what is transpiring. We want to keep avenues of communication open. Mortifying our will and attending may be what it takes to keep our child or friend open to returning to the faith. Refusing to attend on religious grounds may destroy the relationship and turn the person away from the faith.

Hum…

To borrow from Jimmy Akin’s (senior apologist at Catholic Answers) response to a different wedding question -the reason I quote is because of the explanation of the meaning of “attendance”:

“I would not attend such a wedding. In our culture, at least, attendance at a wedding represents a form of endorsement of and participation in the rite that is being enacted. For me to attend such a wedding would represent my endorsement of and participation in a sacrilegious rite, and that is something I will not do.” (from Jimmy Akins blog)

---

It is a celebration…what is one going for? Have you ever been at an actual wedding? or reception?

Yes it is approving. Indeed it is celebrating it.

The ends do not justify the means.

(one rather - keeps loving – with great gentleness, gentle truth and parental care - keeping the doors open)

 

[cycleman]

I agree that this is a difficult situation, but would also advise the father to go to his son’s wedding. Not attending might rupture a loving relationship that can have very long term consequences. If he wants to take that chance, he can, but I would advise against it.

My own partner and I have been together for almost 18 years and his father (a retired Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor) mostly pretends that I don’t exist. His father addresses Christmas cards only to his son, and only sends birthday cards to his son. At family reunions, it has been made clear that I would not be welcome to attend with my partner. As a result, my partner has hardly talked to his father in 18 years, throws away cards, letters and gifts from him unopened, does not answer his emails, and does not attend family reunions, etc. His father just turned 80 and I doubt that there will be any reconciliation between father and son before his father dies. I know that this situation has been very painful for both the father and the son.

Thorolfr,

Your story is a testimony to what can happen when parents reject their children. Thank you for sharing. I really hope the OP takes your experience into account, but it sounds like he has already made up his mind not to attend.

This is clearly a difficult decision. However, I wonder how many posters here advising the OP to not attend the wedding have ever had to face the situation themselves. It’s really easy to sit back and pontificate when you are not at risk of damaging, perhaps permanently destroying, a parent-child relationship.

The stakes are huge!

 

[Lormar]

Thorolfr,

Your story is a testimony to what can happen when parents reject their children. Thank you for sharing. I really hope the OP takes your experience into account, but it sounds like he has already made up his mind not to attend.

This is clearly a difficult decision. However, I wonder how many posters here advising the OP to not attend the wedding have ever had to face the situation themselves. It’s really easy to sit back and pontificate when you are not at risk of damaging, perhaps permanently destroying, a parent-child relationship.

The stakes are huge!

They are not pontificating. :tiphat:

 

[Thorolfr]

They are not pontificating. :tiphat:

It seems to me, too, that a lot of people here are pontificating, but maybe that’s to be expected on a Catholic forum since the word “pontificate” comes from the French word pontiff, another word for the Pope

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Soonercatholic,

What are your thoughts about what will happen after the wedding?

It’s Thanksgiving. Will you invite your son and his partner to dinner? Your son only? Do you think he will attend without his partner?

Your son invites you over for dinner. His partner will be there, of course, since it’s his home as well. Will you attend?

Your son and his partner adopt a baby. Will you visit? Attend birthday parties and other gatherings? Invite them to your home?

Of course if you skip the wedding, you may not have to worry about whether or not your son will accept or extend an invitation. Is that the best outcome?

What is the outcome you are realistically hoping for? No matter what your actions, I’m guessing that your son will stay with his partner so “no wedding” is probably not a realistic hope. Do you want to maintain a relationship with him? What is the best way to foster that? Does he respect your moral and religious views (even if he doesn’t accept them for himself)?

 

[Lormar]

It seems to me, too, that a lot of people here are pontificating, but maybe that’s to be expected on a Catholic forum since the word “pontificate” comes from the French word pontiff, another word for the Pope

Thanks for sharing!

 

[cycleman]

Soonercatholic,

What are your thoughts about what will happen after the wedding?

It’s Thanksgiving. Will you invite your son and his partner to dinner? Your son only? Do you think he will attend without his partner?

Your son invites you over for dinner. His partner will be there, of course, since it’s his home as well. Will you attend?

Your son and his partner adopt a baby. Will you visit? Attend birthday parties and other gatherings? Invite them to your home?

Of course if you skip the wedding, you may not have to worry about whether or not your son will accept or extend an invitation. Is that the best outcome?

What is the outcome you are realistically hoping for? No matter what your actions, I’m guessing that your son will stay with his partner so “no wedding” is probably not a realistic hope. Do you want to maintain a relationship with him? What is the best way to foster that? Does he respect your moral and religious views (even if he doesn’t accept them for himself)?

 

[Bookcat]

Since this is the Catholic Answers site -what again does one of their Apologists say?

Q:

How do we deal with our daughter’s same-sex “wedding”?

How do I address this serious dilemma: Our daughter is planning to openly exchange wedding vows with her same-sex partner next year. Our daughter has been openly gay for ten years, and has been committed to her partner for over three years. My wife and I have explained with charity that we cannot be a witness to this so-called marriage, but we are committed to continue to love the two of them as only parents can. They are respectful with us, but we know our absence from the ceremony will be a bitter pill for them to swallow. Can you give us any guidance on how to cope with the rift in our future relationship with our daughter and her future spouse?

A:

It sounds like you’ve already done what you must do and are now vacillating because of your daughter’s anticipated response. I know this is hard, but you must allow her to feel whatever she is going to feel. If she is upset or bitter because you cannot violate your own conscience to participate in sacrilege (which is what an abuse of the sacrament of matrimony indeed is), that, to be blunt, is her dilemma. Perhaps if her own family remains strong in their convictions by not participating in her ceremony, she will understand how serious the consequences of what she is doing. Trying to soothe her would be fruitless and counter-productive.

I do advise that you stop referring to your daughter’s lesbian “partner” as her “spouse.” To do so lends credibility to what they are trying to do. For lack of a better word, you could use the term “partner,” but I would recommend avoiding that whenever possible, especially to them or to outsiders who may misinterpret your use of the term as approving of the relationship. Treat your daughter’s companion as you would if the woman were your daughter’s platonic roommate, not as you would a daughter-in-law.

Michelle Arnold Michelle
Catholic Answers Apologist

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=517178&highlight=gay+wedding

and

another: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=826842&highlight=gay+wedding

and as I noted from the Catechism:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12763512&postcount=25

Can I do evil (approve by attending the ‘celebration’) so there will be a good (good relationship)?

The end does not justify the means.

Love and truth and gentleness - great love.

 

[ccmcmg]

Have you talked to your pastor? Does your parrish or diocese offer any kind of support or outreach to family members of people with SSA? I think this may be better handled by talking to someone in real life than an internet forum.

I definitely hope that you can sit with your priest and speak to him about this. He knows you better than we do (even if only in passing). Such counseling best be done in person rather than strangers on the internet. Truly.

I had to sit with my priest and ask his counsel on something (won’t share what it was, but it wasn’t anything like this). It was very helpful and eased my mind about the decision I made.

God bless you, much.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I would attend. My son would know why I don’t believe in same-sex “marriage”, but he would also know I that I love him unconditionally. I wouldn’t be there to “celebrate”, but I would be there as a gesture of unconditional love and support for him, and I would welcome both of them as if Christ Himself were present. Because regardless of what flaws we have or wrong-headed decisions we make, we carry His imprint on hour hearts. And that sir is sound Benedictine theology.

How is risking scandal and/or approving of a grave sin a sign of “love”? If you really love someone, do what is best, not what is easiest, makes you (and him) feel good or what society thinks we should do.

And please stop bombarding me with Catechism quotes. As I already mentioned, I know the Catechism rather well. It’s very patronizing. I’m not here to argue, I am stating what I as a parent would do and why I would do it.

Quoting the catechism is a recommended technique on these forums in discussions. :yup:

 

[Adonia]

It seems to me, too, that a lot of people here are pontificating, but maybe that’s to be expected on a Catholic forum since the word “pontificate” comes from the French word pontiff, another word for the Pope

Oh that’s good! LOL! (I like Papist myself) But hey, I know you Lutherans - before my wife converted , it was one week Lutheran and the next week Catholic.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Myself, I cannot imagine not being present at my daughters wedding.

Then it’s high time to start thinking differently, especially if one lives in the First World. There’s all kinds of faux “marriages” we as Catholics should avoid. :yup:

Life is to short to lose your children over this issue.

Even putting family before God is not a trifle matter. I wonder what the holy souls in purgatory would say to “life is short, do what you want”.

I realize that I’m in a **very small minority **on CAF that would follow my example in this situation, but thank goodness we have that choice.

I’m sorry to say that may not be the case.

 

[OraLabora]

Since this is the Catholic Answers site -what again does one of their Apologists say?

The CAF apologist you cited is not a pastor, much less the OP’s pastor. We’re talking about a definite pastoral care issue here. Not a doctrinal one, as from what I can see we all pretty much agree on the doctrine surrounding so-called same-sex “marriage”.

And yes, you, and many others, are pontificating from a very comfortable position, that of not having to risk damaging a family relationship that may result wounds that can last for decades, and drive away every last hope influencing a possible conversion.

I agree with you that we wouldn’t want to have the loss of our child’s soul on our conscience. I disagree with you strongly though, that wrapping yourself in doctrine and risking the ostracizing of your child will do anything to prevent the loss of that soul.

 

[SuperLuigi]

The CAF apologist you cited is not a pastor, much less the OP’s pastor. We’re talking about a definite pastoral care issue here. Not a doctrinal one, as from what I can see we all pretty much agree on the doctrine surrounding so-called same-sex “marriage”.

And yes, you, and many others, are pontificating from a very comfortable position, that of not having to risk damaging a family relationship that may result wounds that can last for decades, and drive away every last hope influencing a possible conversion.

I agree with you that we wouldn’t want to have the loss of our child’s soul on our conscience. I disagree with you strongly though, that wrapping yourself in doctrine and risking the ostracizing of your child will do anything to prevent the loss of that soul.

IF your Confessor or spiritual director tells you something different than what someone on-line says, then follow the advice of the spiritual director and/or Confessor. But this assumes one goes in person to a priest or other qualified individual in good faith.

Otherwise, I have found our apologists to be very component and well-reasoned.

 

[commenter]

As was pointed out this is a very individual decision for a specific family under their own private circumstances. It isn’t possible for us here to propose a “one size fits all” response. As I’m sure you’re aware many family relationships, including parent-offspring relationships, can be very difficult. One has to use prudential judgement and weigh whether not attending would worsen an already tense relationship, and drive the child out of the parents’ influence completely.

Slippery slope warning
The above post reminds me of a conversation in a garden I read about.

Every time you say the Act of Contrition, you resolve to “avoid the near occasions of sin”. This means we have a responsibility to try to prevent, to weaken, to shorten, my or others’ near occasions of sin, which is what gay marriage is. If my son had an inclination to alcoholism I would do all I can to discourage him from getting a job as bartender; if he takes that job, to try to persuade him not to make that job permanent, or full time; to do all I can to help him leave that job - for him, a near occasion of sin. But to keep loving him, no matter what.

Some persons who formerly were actively practicing homosexual behavior have chosen not to do so anymore. That can happen in your son’s situation. Calling this relationship a “marriage” makes it harder to get out of it, but still possible. Your fidelity to your Faith, to your own relationship to God, will increase his chances of reconsidering his own relationship to God.

I hope I’m a loving father, but I’ll never be as loving a father as God is. It troubles me that so many posts concentrate heavily on the earthly father’s relationship with his son, and not on God’s relationship with that son. Which is more important?

 

[Bookcat]

The CAF apologist you cited is not a pastor, much less the OP’s pastor. We’re talking about a definite pastoral care issue here. Not a doctrinal one, as from what I can see we all pretty much agree on the doctrine surrounding so-called same-sex “marriage”.

And yes, you, and many others, are pontificating from a very comfortable position, that of not having to risk damaging a family relationship that may result wounds that can last for decades, and drive away every last hope influencing a possible conversion.

I agree with you that we wouldn’t want to have the loss of our child’s soul on our conscience. I disagree with you strongly though, that wrapping yourself in doctrine and risking the ostracizing of your child will do anything to prevent the loss of that soul.

You are not there -it is not your or my circumstances. Your creating a “story” a “fiction” that does not exist. Some novel.

Read also the other posts I have posted including those from yes the Catechism and Pope Benedict on truth and love.

One must have orthodoxy and orthopraxy. Right doctrine and right action from that doctrine. We must walk in truth and love.

It is not “wrapping oneself in doctrine and risking ostracizing ones child” -to love with truth and gentleness. Except that all of Christian life can risk such to various degrees.

As Jesus said unless you “hate” your mother and father, wife and your children…you cannot be my disciple. We know of course that he is using a semitic way of speaking to make a point - that we must follow him even if it causes problems with family -and that we are to Love him above all…etc

And he said I have come not to bring peace but a sword. Whole households will be divided because of me…

Christians have faced such for centuries. Nothing new.

We must “prefer nothing to the love of Christ” as St. Benedict put it (quoting St. Cyprian)…even family. And one must “keep constant guard over the actions of one’s life.” Avoiding attending that which is of scandal etc.

One must approach it all with great love and gentleness and prudence - seeking to draw them yes to Jesus who is the true life. And yes loving family. The “predicted novel” need not happen.

One is NOT going on any offensive - one is not doing anything to “risk ostrazing” one is only loving and “obstaining” - “not doing” what one has been asked to do-- one is asked to do something that one ought not to do - to approve what one ought not to approve - it is not the Parent who is doing anything it is the Child.

The child is asking them to violate their conscience to approve and celebrate by their attendance what they cannot.

The parent is simply loving and not attending (a non action) what they cannot attend in their conscience.(think of St. Thomas More - yes he risked all by his “not doing” not going to the so called wedding etc - and he in fact gave all).

I have been quite “pastoral” - (one must be gentle and loving etc) but the only authentic pastoral approach is one that involves both truth and love together and is not a means that yes by nature shows support, approval, celebrates. One cannot justify the means by the ends.

The Child is wounding themselves- and their family- the Parent is to love love love with great gentleness -the love of a Father- and yes with gentle truth -and there is things that I do not think the parent can not do…

I am not saying cut the child off or never see them or shun them etc…but rather love them.

This is also a moral issue - the sinfulness of our approval, of our celebration of such a gravely disordered event. By the ‘congrats’ and her is a gift. etc.

It is a source of scandal to all - including the little children (remember how Jesus spoke of such - things about millstones around the neck and bodies of water for those who scandalize one of his little ones…).

The ends do not justify the means.

Love, yes with great love and gentleness - and with truth. Love, gentleness, parental care (authentic not in the way the world suggests), avoiding any harshness etc - lovingly embracing ones child - but love in truth. Without truth it is not love.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Yes, our connection to God should be stronger. But in this case our “connection” to family - or rather, our connection for family - would also lead us to stay away. Your son plans to make a near occasion of sin, permanent. Your presence at this “wedding” will make it a little more difficult for him down the road to pull out from this near occasion of sin.

There will likely be nieces, nephews, younger people at this “wedding”. Some of them will know you and respect you. They may be considering abandoning Christianity either on this, or some other issue. Your presence at this wedding communicates to them that abandoning Christ isn’t that big a deal.

To put it another way, your decision to absent yourself from this “wedding”, but also to continue loving and supporting your son, is a kind of blessing, or evangelism for genuine marriage.

Uh . . . I’m not the OP. I don’t have a son.

 

[OraLabora]

Slippery slope warning
The above post reminds me of a conversation in a garden I read about.

Every time you say the Act of Contrition, you resolve to “avoid the near occasions of sin”. This means we have a responsibility to try to prevent, to weaken, to shorten, my or others’ near occasions of sin, which is what gay marriage is. If my son had an inclination to alcoholism I would do all I can to discourage him from getting a job as bartender; if he takes that job, to try to persuade him not to make that job permanent, or full time; to do all I can to help him leave that job - for him, a near occasion of sin. But to keep loving him, no matter what.

Some persons who formerly were actively practicing homosexual behavior have chosen not to do so anymore. That can happen in your son’s situation. Calling this relationship a “marriage” makes it harder to get out of it, but still possible. Your fidelity to your Faith, to your own relationship to God, will increase his chances of reconsidering his own relationship to God.

I hope I’m a loving father, but I’ll never be as loving a father as God is. It troubles me that so many posts concentrate heavily on the earthly father’s relationship with his son, and not on God’s relationship with that son. Which is more important?

Just a point to clear up, it’s not my son who’s in a homosexual relationship, but the OPs. In my case I am speaking hypothetically. I have no reason to believe that this will affect me but one never knows.

I understand your point but the fact is not everybody believes that homosexuality is a sin, even in the medical profession, while alcoholism is a medically documented pathology.

We have free will and the freedom to choose our own paths no matter how wrong-headed. I’d be more than willing to explain my views on homosexuality to any of my children should they ever indicate they are so inclined but without condemning them; I can only tell them what I would try to do under the circumstances. I have absolutely no power to enforce that view on adults exercising their free will. It means I would have no choice but to accept a decision to be in a homosexual relationship.

If my son(s) choose to marry a woman civilly, even though I know that marriage is non-sacramental, nor a valid Catholic one, I would still attend. Note that my sons are non-practicing Anglicans so I can’t hold them to Catholic standards (please refrain here from criticizing my failure to bring them up as Catholics; my wife converted to Christianity-in her case Anglican-before I reverted to the Church after many years in the wilderness and that’s why my children ended up Anglican).

Respecting our children’s right to make their own choices, and accepting that they will not always make the choices we think they should, does not mean approval. However there is absolutely no way that I would sacrifice a healthy relationship based on mutual respect, with my children, in order to stand on a doctrinal principle.

IF your Confessor or spiritual director tells you something different than what someone on-line says, then follow the advice of the spiritual director and/or Confessor. But this assumes one goes in person to a priest or other qualified individual in good faith.

Otherwise, I have found our apologists to be very component and well-reasoned.

I agree with the advice to seek help from one’s pastor/confessor.

I don’t agree that the CAF apologists should be giving pastoral advice on matters of serious personal concern. Apologetics is explaining and defending doctrine. They should stick to that. To offer appropriate pastoral advice on a subject as delicate as this, requires knowing the family and situation well enough to offer advice. CAF has a policy in place that we shouldn’t offer medical advice on-line, even if the poster is a bona-fide doctor because a doctor cannot make a diagnosis or treat a patient without ever having examined him/her, knowing the patient’s medication history, etc.

The same applies to pastoral advice. No matter how well the apologist knows the doctrine, he or she does not know the penitent or the details of the situation. In the case of the advice offered by the CAF apologist quoted above, she should have limited herself to explaining the Church’s policy on same-sex relationships, offering sympathy for the difficulty the CAF member finds himself in, and directing the person to the advice of his pastor.

That said, I have nothing more to say on the topic. As is typical on these forums, we are speaking past each other trying to score debating points rather than showing genuine concern for the OP’s predicament. IMHO that isn’t a near occasion of sin, it IS a sin. That’s not what conversatio morum us all about (one of the oblate promises I made).

 

[Bookcat]

If my son(s) choose to marry a woman civilly, even though I know that marriage is non-sacramental, nor a valid Catholic one, I would still attend. Note that my sons are non-practicing Anglicans so I can’t hold them to Catholic standards (please refrain here from criticizing my failure to bring them up as Catholics; my wife converted to Christianity-in her case Anglican-before I reverted to the Church after many years in the wilderness and that’s why my children ended up Anglican)…

No it would be either a natural marriage (of either were not baptized) or a sacramental marriage if they are both baptized protestants (Anglicans etc). (presuming the other aspects of sacramental marriage are present).

The truth is that one could certainly attend for it would be a valid marriage (assuming of course the rest is there…such as they are seeking to marry a woman…etc)

And celebrate!

They were not baptized or received into the Catholic Church -so they are not bound to be married according to our form (or get a dispensation from form).

 

[MacQ]

Respecting our children’s right to make their own choices, and accepting that they will not always make the choices we think they should, does not mean approval. However there is absolutely no way that I would sacrifice a healthy relationship based on mutual respect, with my children, in order to stand on a doctrinal principle.).

That said, I have nothing more to say on the topic. As is typical on these forums, we are speaking past each other trying to score debating points rather than showing genuine concern for the OP’s predicament. IMHO that isn’t a near occasion of sin, it IS a sin. That’s not what conversatio morum us all about (one of the oblate promises I made).

Again, amen to that.