M
Methodi
Guest
He had to create them for a reason, there are so many of them in all the far corners of the earth since the beginning of time
- Status
M
Methodi
Guest
There is also a passage in the bible that says judge not lest ye be judged
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
You are quite right, Methodi
What one needs to do is define what is meant by “judging” and “judgement”…
Mmmmmmmmm… interesting article from This Rock quoted by Ricko:
Originally Posted by ricko forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
*A most interesting article and you read to need to whole jolly thing to understand it and I dont think Ricko did this as I think perhaps he does misunderstand the article. *
Judgement implies that one assess an act and then passes judgement on it as well as sentence - that is the full force of judgement. In other words if I say, you are committing a mortal sin (hence damned to Hell) this is judgement, however if I say to a man and a woman living together unmarried that it is a very serious matter and possibly mortally sinful…or if I say, living together is wrong…this is not judging, it is assessing and informing. And in life we are continually in relationships assessing and no person does not and it is rightful to assess.
It is important that we do understand the meaning of the words we use and that we do share a common interpretation of words…else communication is crossed even misunderstood. A crossed communication and possible misunderstanding if I define “judgement” as one thing and my hearer defines it as a different definition entirely.
Mortal sin is the only thing that can condemn us to Hell and mortal sin is not only constituted by grave matter, it takes two other conditions to be present at the same time: full knowledge and full consent. To accuse another of a mortal sin is judgement and not, as the article can appear in the opening paragraphs to suggest, merely pointing out that something is morally wrong, seriously morally wrong or potentially mortally sinful.
-
Code:
All too often we jump upon grave matter as mortal sin condemning one to Hell. Grave matter ALONE is not mortal sin!!! Grave matter and mortal sin are two different subjects although one can be related to the other.*
. The latter judgment belongs only to God. Jesus addressed this type of judgment too:The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:22-30)Clearly, in this context, Jesus was speaking of judgment as condemnation or eternal damnation. Such judgment is reserved to him alone.
G
Genesis12345
Guest
Homosexuals are as capable of love as anyone else - they are not aliens with two heads.
We need to make a distinction - love, as love, is not wrong; water is equally fine, as water. However, water tainted by cyanide, though watery, is not for drinking; & in sofar as love is expressed in wrong ways - by adultery, or by homosexual activity, for instance - it has gone wrong, it has ceased to be healthy. People who engage in
homosexual activity (people are not rightly described if they are described by a sin they commit; all persons always remain persons, whatever their sins) are no better or worse than any one else; all of us sin, in all sorts of ways; & that is one way of so doing.
BTW, a lot of them are Catholic
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Hi Ricko…see my previous Post HERE Did you read the article right through to its long arrived at conclusion?
Barb
G
Genesis12345
Guest
This is directed to Gottler of Geer:
The Church has always taught that homosexual tendencies are not "sinful’, but the acts are. Your statement about "some sins do and those particular sins are mortal…mortal sins have the effect of… Let me tell you, if one is in mortal sin, it affects the entire church because we are all members of the Mystical Body of Christ.
It is fne if they like one another, but as I indicated, the tendencies are not “sinful”, but the actions are. Where is the commitment with the same sex? Can they consummate their marriage, if married? You know as well as I do, that acting out those tendencies does affect the entire Catholic Church because of our being united with the Mystical Body of Christ. You should not make statements, if you do not know the teaching of the Church and your advice can be very harmful to those who read your statements and think mortal sin has no effect on the church because it does.
The Church has always taught that homosexual tendencies are not "sinful’, but the acts are. Your statement about "some sins do and those particular sins are mortal…mortal sins have the effect of… Let me tell you, if one is in mortal sin, it affects the entire church because we are all members of the Mystical Body of Christ.
It is fne if they like one another, but as I indicated, the tendencies are not “sinful”, but the actions are. Where is the commitment with the same sex? Can they consummate their marriage, if married? You know as well as I do, that acting out those tendencies does affect the entire Catholic Church because of our being united with the Mystical Body of Christ. You should not make statements, if you do not know the teaching of the Church and your advice can be very harmful to those who read your statements and think mortal sin has no effect on the church because it does.
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Following post quoted by Genesis12345
All mortal sin puts one outside The Church…it is the very nature of mortal sin to do so.
Catholic Catechism:
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness,*** it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom*** and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
**1496 **The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:
Same sex attraction is not of itself sinful. Same sex sexual acts are always morally wrong to some degree. But an act of itself cannot constitute mortal.
Catholic Catechism
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
The concluding statement in the above is incorrect. Mortal sin in fact destroys the life of Grace totally in the soul putting one outside the Mystical Body of Christ and His Grace. In the Sacrament of Reconciliation and confessing all mortal sins validly, one is reconciled to God AND The Church.Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
## Homosexuals are as capable of love as anyone else - they are not aliens with two heads.
*We need to make a distinction - love, as love, is not wrong; water is equally fine, as water. However, water tainted by cyanide, though watery, is not for drinking; & in sofar as love is expressed in wrong ways - by adultery, or by homosexual activity, for instance - it has gone wrong, it has ceased to be healthy. People who engage in *
*homosexual activity (people are not rightly described if they are described by a sin they commit; all persons always remain persons, whatever their sins) are no better or worse than any one else; all of us sin, in all sorts of ways; & that is one way of so doing. *
BTW, a lot of them are Catholic
All mortal sin puts one outside The Church…it is the very nature of mortal sin to do so.
Catholic Catechism:
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness,*** it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom*** and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
**1496 **The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:
- reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace;
- reconciliation with the Church;
- remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins;
- remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin;
- peace and serenity of conscience, and spiritual consolation;
- an increase of spiritual strength for the Christian battle.
Same sex attraction is not of itself sinful. Same sex sexual acts are always morally wrong to some degree. But an act of itself cannot constitute mortal.
Catholic Catechism
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
G
Genesis12345
Guest
Barabra:
All motal sins have effects on the Church. It effects the Mystical Body of Christ. Believe what you want to, but you are wrong in makng this statement. If you have doubts, ask any priest.
All motal sins have effects on the Church. It effects the Mystical Body of Christ. Believe what you want to, but you are wrong in makng this statement. If you have doubts, ask any priest.
M
Mea_Culpa
Guest
**Preach it, grandfather! Praise Jesus! **
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
I was not in disagreement at all - perhpas you have misread my post. All sin affects The Church and mortal sin puts one outside The Church, as I quoted below from the Catholic Catechism
Catholic Catechism:
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness,*** it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom*** and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
**1496 **The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:
- reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace;
- reconciliation with the Church;
- remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins;
- remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin;
- peace and serenity of conscience, and spiritual consolation;
- an increase of spiritual strength for the Christian battle.
G
Genesis12345
Guest
Barbara,
According to your knowledge, it is fine to have homosexual acts because we can be forgiven through confession; yes, we can be forgiven, but if we continue to have these homosexual acts, the priest has the right of refusing you absolution. I think this is an insult to God. Let’s continue sinning because if we go to confession, we will be forgiven. You are mocking the Powerful Sacrament of Confession. If one continues to have these acts, how can he be sorry and keep going to confession? He will never grow spiritually. God will give him graces, but if he is determined to continue these acts, I sincerely doubt that a priest would give him absolution. The Sacrament of Confession is so powerful that if that person does not have the intention of discontinuing what he is doing, he is making a mockery of this powerful Sacrament. End of question and I will NOT respond because you are not LISTENENING!!!
According to your knowledge, it is fine to have homosexual acts because we can be forgiven through confession; yes, we can be forgiven, but if we continue to have these homosexual acts, the priest has the right of refusing you absolution. I think this is an insult to God. Let’s continue sinning because if we go to confession, we will be forgiven. You are mocking the Powerful Sacrament of Confession. If one continues to have these acts, how can he be sorry and keep going to confession? He will never grow spiritually. God will give him graces, but if he is determined to continue these acts, I sincerely doubt that a priest would give him absolution. The Sacrament of Confession is so powerful that if that person does not have the intention of discontinuing what he is doing, he is making a mockery of this powerful Sacrament. End of question and I will NOT respond because you are not LISTENENING!!!
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
…Dear MC…I think you have missed a post?**Preach it, grandfather! Praise Jesus! **
…
G
Genesis12345
Guest
I find your last statement very immature and you cannot back it up with your knowledge of religion.
The advice you gave is unbelievable and it should not have been published because you are giving “YOUR” opinions and not of the CHURCH. Your opinions mean nothing, in all Christian charity, it is why we have laws in the church and what you say in your last stement is so “untrue” that you need a “wide” awakening.
May God give you His graces to understand the way you are treating this matter.
The advice you gave is unbelievable and it should not have been published because you are giving “YOUR” opinions and not of the CHURCH. Your opinions mean nothing, in all Christian charity, it is why we have laws in the church and what you say in your last stement is so “untrue” that you need a “wide” awakening.
May God give you His graces to understand the way you are treating this matter.
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Genesis12345
I am not saying this at all! If one commits any mortal sin under the understanding it is ok as one can be forgiven in Confession, this is a totally wrong understanding and outside completely of what The Church teaches. If one commits a mortal sin because one can be forgiven in Confession, that is in fact potentially two mortal sins. The act itself and the sin of serious presumption on the Mercy of God.
Peace to you and God’s blessings…regards…Barb
Dear Genesis…You are definitely reading my posts incorrectly.
I am not saying this at all! If one commits any mortal sin under the understanding it is ok as one can be forgiven in Confession, this is a totally wrong understanding and outside completely of what The Church teaches. If one commits a mortal sin because one can be forgiven in Confession, that is in fact potentially two mortal sins. The act itself and the sin of serious presumption on the Mercy of God.
I agree with you and I cannot understand why you think that I don’t or would not. Certainly a priest can refuse absolution and especially if it is apparent to him that the person is not making any attempt to correct their behaviour. A firm purpose of amendment is one of the conditions for a valid confession.
You really are reading me wrong and I am certainly not insulting to God nor saying what you are saying that I do say. And were I not convinced that you are indeed reading me wrong, I would be insulted by your comments; however, I simply think you are reading me wrongly. Welcome to CAF incidentally and I mean this:thumbsup: … to make uncharitable remarks to another person are against the rules of CAF and insulting comments can be reported to moderators, which I am not doing as I simply think you have read me wrongly - just as a gentle hint for any future posts.
Indeed I am listening…and you have my comments totally and absolutely wrong…I think you might be projecting
Peace to you and God’s blessings…regards…Barb
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Dear Genesis…I think you are referring to me, although it is really unclear. If you do mean me, then I do not know which post of mine to which you are referring. It is very helpful to give the name of to whom you are referring and also to quote the actual comments disputed.
May The Lord indeed increase Charity in us all
…Blessings and regards…Barb
Incidentally if you want to draw the attention of a moderator to a post and something that you wish to report to them, in the top right hand corner of Posts you will see an exclamation mark: ! surrounded by a white triangle…if you click onto that, a blank form will enable you to write your objection direct to the Forum moderator.
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
grandfather;4207687:
we tell them is as important as ***that ***we tell them.
Referring to your Post HERE
Great observation and a very important one I think, Newbie:thumbsup:
Barb
R
ricko
Guest
Hi Barb, and yes I did read the whole article. The part you point out about judgement concerning the state of the soul resevered for God alone is not the judgement being referred to in these posts. I did not see anyone say that they were going to hell or heaven. Ninety percent of the article had to do with judging the actions of our brothers and not the eternal state of their soul. Perhaps the following quotes from the article will help:
Jesus indeed expects his disciples to judge but he warns that they, too, will be judged in a like manner.
there can be no doubt that those final words—“take the speck out of your brother’s eye”—are, indeed, permission to judge so long as it is done rightly.
Jesus told the Jews, “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment” (John 7:24).
It is not possible to follow Jesus’ instructions without being “judgmental” of another’s behavior.
Jesus indeed expects his disciples to judge but he warns that they, too, will be judged in a like manner.
there can be no doubt that those final words—“take the speck out of your brother’s eye”—are, indeed, permission to judge so long as it is done rightly.
Jesus told the Jews, “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment” (John 7:24).
It is not possible to follow Jesus’ instructions without being “judgmental” of another’s behavior.
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Thanks Rico. I must admit in reading the article I have always defined “judgement” as implying sentence also. “Assessing” to me means to assess something or other with no sentence attached. This goes back to my College days and education byDominican nuns. We were taught to make a clear distinction between judgement and assessment i.e. judgement meaning there is a sentence attached to the assessment and that this is what we are asked not to do as in “judge not that you may not be judged” And I still at 62years most never use the word “judge”, rather “assess”.
Over and above that the This Rock article did have me puzzled indeed until I read the concluding paragraph which I quoted. This is because in some Scriptural passages it says not to judge and in other passages it seems to say to actually judge.
Perhpas I am splitting hairs…but I do think that many do get confused over the word “judgement” and the definition in our Catholic understanding that we are not to and cannot judge the disposition of the soul. I also think many Catholics possibly cannot assess when ‘judgement’ is not assessing the disposition of the soul and when it is. Many Catholics too on sighting in some way grave matter, immediately think “mortal sin” but there are two other conditions necessary to make a grave act mortally sinful.
Certainly as the article does state…but not until right until the end with a “Be all that as it may”…we must not judge the soul or state that a person is in mortal sin which is as good as saying “You are going to Hell” since mortal sin means Hell. I think you will know what I mean? While I am sure you realize I am not saying at all that mortal sin will not take a person to Hell, for it will.
Thanks for clarification…Barb
G
grandfather
Guest
This how I always understood the proscription against judging others.
We may never judge (know) the condition of another’s soul. So and so may have murdered his mother. That is a grevous evil. What we do not know is whether he is penitent or impenitent. Only God knows that. We also realize that we can not judge another soul’s sanctity either. So and so lives a very holy life and is surely full of God’s grace. We can not make this judgment either.
What we can say is murder is evil, or some other moral failure is. Saying some act is immoral is not us passing a judgment on anyone and we do not pass judgment on the act either. The moral law is revealed to us. We know what it is. So murder is evil, as are many other things.
I may know that a person has commited some terrible sin, but I do not ever know the present state of his soul unless that person tells me. If that happens then it is that person passing judgment on himself. So if a person publicly professes some sin and insists it is not evil, then we know without ourselves judging anyone that the person is in danger of eternal loss.
We may never judge (know) the condition of another’s soul. So and so may have murdered his mother. That is a grevous evil. What we do not know is whether he is penitent or impenitent. Only God knows that. We also realize that we can not judge another soul’s sanctity either. So and so lives a very holy life and is surely full of God’s grace. We can not make this judgment either.
What we can say is murder is evil, or some other moral failure is. Saying some act is immoral is not us passing a judgment on anyone and we do not pass judgment on the act either. The moral law is revealed to us. We know what it is. So murder is evil, as are many other things.
I may know that a person has commited some terrible sin, but I do not ever know the present state of his soul unless that person tells me. If that happens then it is that person passing judgment on himself. So if a person publicly professes some sin and insists it is not evil, then we know without ourselves judging anyone that the person is in danger of eternal loss.
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Quoting grandfather
…but it is very easy for some to misunderstand that there is judging, and there is judging? We can judge an act as immoral or wrong, even evil…but we cannot state the disposition of a person’s soul as in mortal sin or not in mortal sin as a categorical statement - we can certainly state and should, in certain cirumstances, that the person is involved in grave moral matter and may be in real danger of mortal sin and eternal loss of their souls to Hell.
…
…if the person confesses to mortal sin publicly then they are in immmediate danger of Hell or eternal loss of their souls.
I have always been ‘long winded’ and I really do admire those with the gift of clear statement in a conscise manner…just not my gift I am afraid!
Barb
…
…but it is very easy for some to misunderstand that there is judging, and there is judging? We can judge an act as immoral or wrong, even evil…but we cannot state the disposition of a person’s soul as in mortal sin or not in mortal sin as a categorical statement - we can certainly state and should, in certain cirumstances, that the person is involved in grave moral matter and may be in real danger of mortal sin and eternal loss of their souls to Hell.…
……
…if the person confesses to mortal sin publicly then they are in immmediate danger of Hell or eternal loss of their souls.I have always been ‘long winded’ and I really do admire those with the gift of clear statement in a conscise manner…just not my gift I am afraid!
Barb
- Status