Gays May Be Prosecuted at 2014 Olympics

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Miss SMGS127, you do seem like you are on a crusade. Just take a breather and go through your interactions on this thread. You are doing the same things you claim to be fighting: judgmentalism, false accusations, painting others with a broad brush. In this thread, you are combining the issues of homosexual behavior in itself and the active popularization of it among the young as one thing. Others who disagree with you do not take them to be one thing. You have not made any argument to show that these issues are not two separate things but rather the same thing, as your many accusations here (both of Russia and the posters who support it’s anti-propaganda law) show. You are simply assuming it and demanding that others agree with you in your assumptions, and going on an emotional rant when they fail to accept this assumption you make. If these are not two different issues as we see them, and if being against the propaganda of popularizing these unnatural tendencies among children is the same thing as “hating” or having “vitriol” against people who have same-sex attraction, why don’t you just be calm about it and show us where we are wrong? Show us with rational arguments why the propaganda is exactly the same thing as the condition, so that those of us who support moves to limit or end the propaganda are actually as you have been accusing us, “hating” and “pouring vitriol” on persons who have same-sex-attraction. You also give figures, percentages, without linking to any report. I’m not sure how you know that those you call “militant gays” are 2%…? But even if I were to accept that this is some real statistic, then is that not good news? Why then, are you so upset about this anti-propaganda law? If this is true in Russia, then only 2% of Russians with this tendency are in trouble, and the 98% who have no interest in propaganda are safe, right? I’d like to see from you, if its possible, rational arguments showing that restraining the propaganda legally, will result in the things you’ve been claiming. If you genuinely see this issue as a Catholic, as you say, then you know that this is a dis-order, much like a psychological dis-order is a dis-order. Now, if a country made it illegal for adults to spread propaganda popularizing anorexia or drug-abuse as a good thing among children, would you be so upset as you are now? Would you be accusing supporters of that law of hating and pouring vitriol on those with a natural propensity to fall into these particular abuses/illnesses/conditions?
 
Homosexuals do not indoctrinate children. They already have the public school system, television, and the government performing that task. Russia, God Bless them, appears to be reversing the trend.
 
SMGS127 said:
Almost no gays have motivation to “indoctrinate” children. I will agree that it is pretty mainstream for the gay community to tell kids that their SSAs don’t make them bad people, since the religious fail to do their basic parenting job by leaving this out. But I’ve actually never met a single gay person who wanted to try to “convert” children. In 7 years. Meeting thousands of gay people in multiple locations around the country. Nice try though. In fact, only a very small percentage (maybe 1%?) of gay people I’ve met wanted religion out of the world entirely, and only a slightly higher percentage favored stuff like kindergarten books without opt-outs and lawsuits against Catholic businesses.

Where do you get your information about how your average gay feels? Do you spend time in the LGBT communities? Well no, we’ve already established you don’t. So you really have no idea, and you should admit that. Also, do you not feel that a celibate gay/lesbian has a place in the Church? If so, you are also in direct opposition to the Vatican.

A surprisingly high number of gay people actually still were willing to seek the call to Christ, despite all the endless verbal beatings they take on a daily basis from Puritans like yourself. I daily work to help them see the importance of His Church and His doctrine and His call to moral behavior, and I daily help them to ignore the ignorant and those filled with wrath and hatred towards anyone who has SSAs. It’s a true shame when the language of the sinners is more in line with Christ than the language of the religious, yet our world has come to this. You guys imply to (and depress) your kids by lying that gays are nothing but evil, perverted people, while gays preach love and equal dignity for all. They are lost sinners in their homosexual behavior, yes. But what’s your excuse?
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I would just like to say how sorry I am for the awful and hateful treatment that you have received at times from those who were called to love above all else.:(. I cannot imagine the burden and struggles that someone like you probably faces on a daily basis, you shouldn’t have to endure such ugliness on top of that.

I am disturbed that so many Catholic posters could support this Russian law as well. The idea that two men (or women) could be arrested and incarcerated for holding hands or hugging in public is outrageous.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
So you are gay. OK, at least now I know where you are coming from.

This emotionally charged pseudo-argument about persecuting gay kids that you present above is truly sickening. I think we both know that this law is about adults and how their behaviour impacts society, which includes the youth. :rolleyes:

I’m sorry, but I’m not interested in working in the gay community. My priorities are elsewhere; ie. how to raise and protect my children from the increasingly vulgar and damaging secular world.
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The big problem is the constant need to make this disorder equal to heterosexual inclination. It should be compared to heterosexual deviations only. People want to minimize it and nuance it to the point of making it like eye color or shoe size. Any attempt to draw it back to reality will be met with charges of lack of charity.
 
HansTrappist said:
It is interesting to note that prior to 1973, Homosexuality was regarded as a socially destructive mental disease that was curable. It was only after the pornographer and gay rights activist Frank Kameny lobbied the APA into reclassifying homosexual activity as “normal sex” that things started going to hell.
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Are you saying that the APA made their decision based on lobbying and not science?
 
SMGS127 said:
I am opposed to gay behavior too; obviously I know that’s not vitriol. I’m talking about the comments in this thread that talk about gays as predators. That IS vitriol. And I’m sorry that the 2% of the community that is referred to as “militant” makes our lives as Catholics more inundated with homosexual things. I don’t think that means the other 98% should deserve to be grouped as predatory. And by the way, most of the people (with the exception of Ryan Murphy) who direct these TV shows are straight! They exploit the gay community as much as they annoy the straights.

Considering that Russia currently doesn’t prosecute gang rapes and beatings of homosexuals, I would be fine, as a Catholic, with gays talking to each other online there. I am fine with gay youth talking about their desires. I am fine with support groups propping up to help people cope with SSAs. The disorder IS normal. Gay people are just the same as anyone else, they just have an extra thing in SSAs to struggle with.

Now if you’re talking about the normalization of gay relationships, which is completely different, would you rather have a society where gays were brutally attacked all the time (and by the way, still acting on their desires in secret) or a society where gays were treated like every day human beings and you could have the ability to teach your son or daughter right from wrong without him/her thinking you hated them if they had SSAs? The first is Russia. The second is America. I would argue that America, despite its free speech faults that allow for the very small subset of militant gays to try to infiltrate schools, is still a significantly more moral place than Russia, which believes that gays have less-than-human status.

:rolleyes: I am hardly on a crusade. Don’t try to demean my argument through condescending wordplay.

I do agree with your second sentence though. I find it sad and think there can’t be a reasonable conversation with people who believe that people should be locked in jail for discussing their attractions to members of the same sex, holding hands with members of the same sex, or helping to counsel someone who is fighting same-sex desires. I feel like I’m discussing the issue with Mormons/Muslims/Baptists/Puritans, not Catholics.

The fact that you see nothing wrong with endangering the safety of gay youth in a totalitarian country because you’re angry at a kindergarten book and American media tells a lot, I would say.
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I think you’ve just about said it all by means of your several comments on the issue. I agree with you in all respects. Just one statement you made is not correct: “the disorder IS normal.” Technically speaking, if SSA is a disorder, then it cannot be normal. Further, the Catholic Church does not believe SSA to be normal, but disordered. The psychologist’s DSM, OTOH, believes that SSA is normal, except for ego-dystonic homosexuality, in which a gay person suffers from the stigma (although I haven’t checked the most recent DSM-V to see if that category is still there). Or did you mean to say the “disorder” is normal? Regardless, all the other points of your argument make a lot of sense to me.
 
meltzerboy said:
There were actually a combination of factors involved, both political and scientific.
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Do you think there is a reason that researching homosexuality as a disorder is a taboo now? Try and publish an academic article that suggests that and goes against the truth of the day. Try and get funding for your research project at a university. Unless you follow ideological trends your science means nothing.

Politics, dear friend, is everything. 😉
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Do you think there is a reason that researching homosexuality as a disorder is a taboo now? Try and publish an academic article that suggests that and goes against the truth of the day. Try and get funding for your research project at a university. Unless you follow ideological trends your science means nothing.

Politics, dear friend, is everything. 😉
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There have been recent studies done regarding homosexuality that go against the grain. True, most of those researchers have been criticized by the mainstream establishment, but they are published nonetheless. Some have even been discussed on the Forum. I’m not saying politics is absent from science, but it is not the whole enchilada.
 
Darryl1958 said:
Are you saying that the APA made their decision based on lobbying and not science?
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The APA ipso facto cannot make any decisions based on science because, despite how much some mental health professionals want to insist otherwise, psychology and psychiatry are most definitely not “sciences” to begin with.
 
meltzerboy said:
There have been recent studies done regarding homosexuality that go against the grain. True, most of those researchers have been criticized by the mainstream establishment, but they are published nonetheless. Some have even been discussed on the Forum. I’m not saying politics is absent from science, but it is not the whole enchilada.
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It is not everything but it is a large component. The average person sees studies as god-like. They hear “peer-reviewed” and it is almost infallible. Few talk about how much politics play a role in all of it.
 
meltzerboy said:
Dem’s fightin’ words!
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LOL, yes, I know, my mother is a psychiatrist (while at the same time somehow being one of the least empathetic and most irrational and close-minded persons I have ever known fascinatingly enough), but despite how much for some odd reason she and others in mental health want to think they are engaged in some scientific inquiry, it most certainly is not. Mental health can provide people with great assistance at times, which is what I thought the therapist would be WANTING to do in the first place, so it’s strange that they bristle so at the simple truth on this point as the fact is that it is essentially a medical craft or art, rather than science. The obvious reality of literally wide open outcomes of therapy approaches for persons with the same conditions alone confirms that there can be no “science” about the endeavor. Otherwise, hard physical factors (name removed by moderator)ut the same way each time would inevitably lead to the same results, as in actual scientific inquiry.

It remains helpful to people in need, but like what I do, law, it is not a science but an art. This must be so in the end because people, and therefore human mental “health” cannot be reduced to merely chemical processes and biological reactions to positive and negative external stimuli and proper or incorrect firing of brain synapses. The materialists fail as the mind is more than the sum of its physical parts, and thus can and will choose or react in myriad ways to the same treatments or stimuli, depending on the subject’s unique personality.
 
Blacksword said:
LOL, yes, I know, my mother is a psychiatrist (while at the same time somehow being one of the least empathetic and most irrational and close-minded persons I have ever known fascinatingly enough), but despite how much for some odd reason she and others in mental health want to think they are engaged in some scientific inquiry, it most certainly is not. Mental health can provide people with great assistance at times, which is what I thought the therapist would be WANTING to do in the first place, so it’s strange that they bristle so at the simple truth on this point as the fact is that it is essentially a medical craft or art, rather than science. The obvious reality of literally wide open outcomes of therapy approaches for persons with the same conditions alone confirms that there can be no “science” about the endeavor. Otherwise, hard physical factors (name removed by moderator)ut the same way each time would inevitably lead to the same results, as in actual scientific inquiry.

It remains helpful to people in need, but like what I do, law, it is not a science but an art. This must be so in the end because people, and therefore human mental “health” cannot be reduced to merely chemical processes and biological reactions to positive and negative external stimuli and proper or incorrect firing of brain synapses. The materialists fail as the mind is more than the sum of its physical parts, and thus can and will choose or react in myriad ways to the same treatments or stimuli, depending on the subject’s unique personality.
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How refreshing! You know the drill, lies, dam*ed lies and statistics. Correlation is not causation. And just because a bunch of pseudo scientists vote something in or out of the DSM doesn’t make it so.

My parents were both PhDs in biology, incredibly secular, totally without any interest in religion. They stated that with respect to science, homosexuality is abnormal behavior. In any species there are two objectives, to survive and to procreate. Homosexuality works against both scientifically determined objectives with respect to any species. That being said, this is no reason to demean, debase, or detract from the humanity of any person facing SSA.

That homosexualists are NOT trying to indoctrinate children is laughable. California schools require textbooks to feature individuals who are “other” than traditional…homosexual, transgender, not sure, thinking about it…whatever floats their boat. Tell me that something in 99% of cases being totally extraneous from the subject or the event is important enough to DEMAND this be in all textbooks is not propaganda? How about schools featuring a “Day of Silence” or demanding that even primary school children learn about homosexuality? Not indoctrination?

Yes it’s sad that some homosexuals are still receiving hateful treatment but let’s get real here. Human nature is such that many people get hateful treatment. Ask an obese person how they are treated? (btw I am not but often our patients are) Ask someone who goes into a restaurant with their child who has Down Syndrome?

What has become incredibly tiresome amongst the homosexual activists is their shrill protestations that hateful treatment is the rule rather than the exception. In addition it is extremely annoying that this tiny minority that bases its entire image upon sexual practices and proclivities demands that this be made public, accepted if not embraced and treated as equivalent in every way to traditional marriage.

As to the Olympics, once again. If Joe and Bob can keep their hands off each other in public, leave the tutus at home and like the vast majority of heterosexuals keep their private life private, I am sure they will have a fine experience at the Olympics. One of my favorite of all time athletes, Greg Lougainis competed without revealing his sexual orientation (nor his HIV status sadly) and no one even thought about his sex life. They just appreciated his incredible athleticism and the pride he gave many Americans including me.
Lisa
 
If gays begin to be arrested and horribly persecuted in Putin’s Russia in the next 3 years, then we should boycott the games. I also believe we should have not participated in the 2008 games because of China’s “1 child” policy. :mad:
 
kozlosap said:
If gays begin to be arrested and horribly persecuted in Putin’s Russia in the next 3 years, then we should boycott the games. I also believe we should have not participated in the 2008 games because of China’s “1 child” policy. :mad:
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Right…punish the athletes who have worked for years because we can’t control the world. Sorry but that kind of stuff seems totally counterproductive and punishes the wrong people.
Lisa
 
meltzerboy said:
I think you’ve just about said it all by means of your several comments on the issue. I agree with you in all respects. Just one statement you made is not correct: “the disorder IS normal.” Technically speaking, if SSA is a disorder, then it cannot be normal. Further, the Catholic Church does not believe SSA to be normal, but disordered. The psychologist’s DSM, OTOH, believes that SSA is normal, except for ego-dystonic homosexuality, in which a gay person suffers from the stigma (although I haven’t checked the most recent DSM-V to see if that category is still there). Or did you mean to say the “disorder” is normal? Regardless, all the other points of your argument make a lot of sense to me.
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I think the problem is people are confusing a term from scholastic philosophy and one from medicine/psychology.
 
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