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SeannyM
Guest
Or when they hold hands in public, or start a project to reach out to gay youth to prevent suicide. It’s disgusting.
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jmcrae
Guest
Where do you read that holding hands in public is a kind of homosexual activity, or that it will be prosecuted?
The best suicide prevention is to teach children and young people that Jesus loves them, and that He has a purpose for their lives. They don’t need to be “mentored” into a homosexual lifestyle.
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SMGS127
Guest
Because gays parade homosexuality in the school yard
. What school did YOU go to?No, the Russian government is banning any gay person from posting online, talking to friends about their relationship in public, even holding hands with someone they love. Yes, they are sinning, but that does not give us the right to throw them in jail for it.
In my opinion, it is a direct violation of Catholicism to support this law. Sorry.
As for JrJohnson, you need serious help. Maybe you should meet some gay people before you try to pick the speck out of their eyes. Also the It Gets Better project has kept so many kids from the brink of suicide, whereas so-called “gay conversion therapy” as advocated in your post has caused countless suicides. So I find your post, quite frankly, to be disgusting.
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SeannyM
Guest
What if they’re atheist? Or Muslim? Or have decided not to try to live up to the completely unreasonable assertion that they should be celibate their entire life? What about those kids? Or what about the kids like I was, who sit in church every Sunday and are told that they’re going to hell. Or the ones that watch their “Christian” parents verbally acost a gay couple for holding hands, all the while their gay son is watching and wondering “is that really what he thinks about me?” What about those kids?Where do you read that holding hands in public is a kind of homosexual activity, or that it will be prosecuted?
The best suicide prevention is to teach children and young people that Jesus loves them, and that He has a purpose for their lives. They don’t need to be “mentored” into a homosexual lifestyle.
Not every child is going to accept a religious lifestyle. Those are the kids who need to know that it does get better… But no, ban that, it’s an attempt to gay up our kids. The simple fact is, gay people have existed as long as humanity has, and will continue to do so… Some kids are going to be gay.
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JRJOHNSON
Guest
Though your reply is ad hominem, will answer you. Dan K. Savage’s views are the propaganda that must be kept out of schools and Americans must follow the Russians in this by telling Dan K. Savage that his propaganda has no place in public schools. What’s sad is having him speak in schools and censor kids who differ with him-more parents need to not tolerate this and Russians are not tolerating this. If Dan K. Savage wants a fair discussion, then he must be willing to listen to views he dislikes but this is not happening. And again, if 1 sees nothing wrong with Dan K. Savage’s apologism for H.B. Milk’s sex abuse of teenage boy, then there’s something wrong. Russians rightly don’t want Dan K. Savage propaganda being pushed on students.
As to conversion therapy causing suicides-that is propaganda by Dan K. Savage and honestly, mainstream science is biased on this. Gays/lesbians have high suicide rates because among other things, many were childhood sex abuse victims. Childhood sex abuse victims are more likely to take up gay/lesbian identity and they’re more likely to have drug problems, suicides and so on. Gays/lesbians on average earn more $, travel more, but they still have high suicides, depression, drug problems, etc. because many suffered childhood sex abuse The gays and lesbians who go into therapy do so because they want to change, the same way a drug addict goes into rehab. If you’re not going to allow therapy for gays/lesbians wanting to be straight because such therapy often fails, then you may as well not have rehab for addicts because rehab therapy often fails. But honestly, whether therapy works is minor. Gays/lesbian groups would be against therapy even if it were 100% successful. Russians are doing the right thing by not letting gay/lesbian groups push their biased views on others with little to no opposing view as has happened in USA. Dan K. Savage and those who share his views are disgusted by views I have because they are so biased in their thinking that they can’t tolerate those who see it differently.
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SMGS127
Guest
A) Gays are not “turned” gay by sexual abuse. This is a chronic myth and completely false.
B) I don’t really care about the personal life of Harvey Milk. We’re talking about the It Gets Better project, not Milk or (for that matter) Dan Savage even. I don’t like Dan Savage either; he got under my skin with very anti-Catholic BS when he talked at my school last year. However, the It Gets Better project does a TON for gays. It helps them realize that others have gone through what they’re going through and survived into a better world, whether they have crazy Baptist/Mormon/Pentecostal parents or any other parent or school system that tells them gay people are inherently evil. We should be joining IN on the It Gets Better project from a Catholic point of view, not condemning something that is inherently good.
C) Gay people commit suicide at higher rates because they are constantly told by everyone, including the media, their schools, and their parents that if they aren’t straight, they’re lesser.
D) Gay-to-straight “conversion” therapy has a 0% success rate. The only success rates we’ve seen are gay-to-CELIBATE therapy, which gays are fine with. But guess what? Conversion therapy often involves electrocution and massive amounts of child abuse, so of course no gay person would want it legal for minors even if it did work. I’m not going to force a 16 year-old kid to be electrocuted against his will if he’d rather be celibate and keep his SSAs. However, in the real world, “conversion” therapy means he gets electrocuted against his will AND doesn’t change and raises his suicide threat risk.
E) Gays could care less about “converting minors.” Minors will be or not be gay based on immutable characteristics. All the LGBT community has ever tried to do is help gay kids find self-acceptance, support, and love. It’s a huge shame that I see more of those qualities IN the LGBT community than even the Catholic community.
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jmcrae
Guest
Wait - you’re a kid?! You have no way of knowing what your sexual orientation is, yet.
Give it until you are at least of marrying age before you decide one way or the other, and don’t let anyone “mentor” you in either direction.
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SeannyM
Guest
Wow… Yeah, I knew I was gay at the exact same time my friends were realizing that they liked girls. And, I didn’t have a “mentor.” Sexual orientation is not something that can be mentored into you. It is nice to see a “kid” who could very well hold a doctorate, or be a postgrad student for all we know, who is capable of treating his fellow human beings with respect. A “kid” who is emotionally and intellectually mature enough to recognize the strugles and vitriol that gay people experience. It is very refreshing.
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JRJOHNSON
Guest
A. Any conduct including sexual conduct can be learned. Childhood sex abuse is a major cause of gay/lesbian conduct. 1 can deny this but it’s truth. If a kid lives in a high crime neighborhood, the likelihood is more that he or she will commit crimes in adulthood. So if a boy is repeatedly molested, the likelihood is more that he will be gay in adulthood. IMO anybody who denies this knows is true or they’re so biased that they are delusional.
B. Well Dan K. Savage hero worships Harvey B. Milk. Here’s article on H.B. Milk citizenlink.com/2010/06/17/got-milk/ Russians don’t want people like Dan K. Savage’s It Gets Better Propaganda being pushed in schools because they aren’t going to have an apologist like him speaking.
C. Gays, lesbians and transsexuals must hear that there is something wrong with their sexual conduct and sex changes just as smokers hear that there is something dangerous about smoking. Russians are right in saying there is something wrong with same sex behaviors by treating it the same way as smoking by adults. If it offends them, then that is their problem. Most smokers are not committing suicides because others tell them smoking causes cancer. So gays and lesbians must hear that their sexual conduct is harmful though it offends.
D. If the therapy had 0% success, then it wouldn’t happen. We must help them become celibate if not change their attractions. Drug rehab often does not help addicts quit their attractions, but it does help them quit drugs. The idea of therapy is to help (those who want it) gays and lesbians become atleast celibate if not straight because the idea is to help them quit same sex behaviors. With electroshock therapy, there is no proof to that and it sounds like false statements by gay groups.
E. Gay/lesbian groups think it’s Okay for a kid to have hormones and surgical mutilation because they think they’re girl trapped in boys body or boy trapped in girls body. T stands for transexuality and transexuality is a sad science waste. Gay/lesbian groups are hostile to idea of trying to help gays/lesbians change to celibacy or straight but most are Okay with surgically mutilating a man or woman because they think they’re of opposite sex.
Gay/lesbian groups are wrong. Russians are right to know that they are wrong and Americans including President Obama can learn something from them. And once again, I am not a Christian and I am not a religious person, so my reasons for agreeing with Russia’s law is unrelated to a faith.
B. Well Dan K. Savage hero worships Harvey B. Milk. Here’s article on H.B. Milk citizenlink.com/2010/06/17/got-milk/ Russians don’t want people like Dan K. Savage’s It Gets Better Propaganda being pushed in schools because they aren’t going to have an apologist like him speaking.
C. Gays, lesbians and transsexuals must hear that there is something wrong with their sexual conduct and sex changes just as smokers hear that there is something dangerous about smoking. Russians are right in saying there is something wrong with same sex behaviors by treating it the same way as smoking by adults. If it offends them, then that is their problem. Most smokers are not committing suicides because others tell them smoking causes cancer. So gays and lesbians must hear that their sexual conduct is harmful though it offends.
D. If the therapy had 0% success, then it wouldn’t happen. We must help them become celibate if not change their attractions. Drug rehab often does not help addicts quit their attractions, but it does help them quit drugs. The idea of therapy is to help (those who want it) gays and lesbians become atleast celibate if not straight because the idea is to help them quit same sex behaviors. With electroshock therapy, there is no proof to that and it sounds like false statements by gay groups.
E. Gay/lesbian groups think it’s Okay for a kid to have hormones and surgical mutilation because they think they’re girl trapped in boys body or boy trapped in girls body. T stands for transexuality and transexuality is a sad science waste. Gay/lesbian groups are hostile to idea of trying to help gays/lesbians change to celibacy or straight but most are Okay with surgically mutilating a man or woman because they think they’re of opposite sex.
Gay/lesbian groups are wrong. Russians are right to know that they are wrong and Americans including President Obama can learn something from them. And once again, I am not a Christian and I am not a religious person, so my reasons for agreeing with Russia’s law is unrelated to a faith.
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SMGS127
Guest
I’m 24…I was actually engaged to be married about 3 years ago (but it broke off early because I felt like I was living a lie due to intensely strong SSAs and no religious background at the time), so I feel like I’ve met your burden don’t you think? Dan Savage came to my UNIVERSITY last year, where I was a senior at the time.
A. That…doesn’t even make sense. Also conduct can be learned, but orientation can’t. You can learn to be celibate as a gay teen, but sexual abuse does not make you more likely to become gay. That is parroted by only the most extreme of the right wing.
B. I don’t know what your obsession with a man who’s been dead for 50 years is. We’re not talking about Harvey Milk.
C. Except that gays and lesbians, unlike kids who have never smoked, still have the intense urge to do it even if they have no outside encouragement and teaching that the behavior is wrong. False analogy.
D. There is proof of ECT (electroconvulsive therapy) at both Brigham Young University as late as the mid-2000s forcibly on college students SUSPECTED of being gay. There is also proof of it being performed by Exodus International prior to their shutting down this year, a fact they used to be proud of. It is done because parents are willing to shell out thousands out of some false hope to turn their kid straight, even if the therapy has a 0% success rate. Your bias is showing when you can’t accept a FACT, just because it is denounced by the gay community.
E. The Church also allows for the moral licitness of so-called “sex-change” therapy in cases of extreme anguish while discouraging the procedure in general and agreeing that the procedure does not change one’s gender in the eyes of the Church. Did you know that? In addition, LGBT groups do not mind gay people being celibate. I am one of those lesbians. I have intense SSAs and still call myself a lesbian, but I am celibate. And guess what? I still can go to Pride and other events with literally no backlash whatsoever. Actually meet the LGBT community before you start issuing slander at them.
LGBT groups, despite leading kids into sin, still do more for the welfare of these kids than most “Christian” parents in the US. I’d rather see a kid in sin who can be rescued later than a kid kill himself over bigotry and violence directed his way by his parents, peers, and school.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
Really, what is the down side for competing gay athletes and visitors attending the games in refraining from public displays of affection? They can do so in private to their hearts content. It’s not like the fact that most Russians find open homosexuality offensive is unknown, or that enforcers will spring a law in effect that what would be unknown to visitors. It would be good form and a sign of courtesy by guests to comply with the house rules set by the host.
The most that can be said in this regard is that the Catholic Church would be against malice, injustice and violence against homosexuals. She does not approve of any Catholic being instrumental or taking part in pressure groups, or acting as enablers of an active homosexual life.
Your comment to JrJ is uncharitable. It seems that you are way too close to the issue of same sex attraction that you are not able to exercise any objectivity about It Gets Better project and the person behind it. Dan Savage’s pet project may be where suicidal young people turn to, but he is hardly the model of good behavior and his life in accord with Catholic principles. He makes a mockery of marriage and parenting, and of Church teaching, in case you did not notice.
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jmcrae
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24 is still relatively young. Some people take until age 25 to reach full sexual maturity, and many people go through a phase of same-sex attraction as part of their sexual development. Things could change for you between now and then. Meanwhile, don’t let anyone touch you - of either sex.
(Some people also don’t realize that they’re homosexual until they are well into their 40s, as you are no doubt well aware - so why wouldn’t it work the other way, too?)
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SMGS127
Guest
I’m talking more about gay Russian citizens more than athletes. I’m not saying the Church supports the enabling of homosexual behavior. I’m saying that throwing gay people in jail merely for holding hands or talking about their gay relationship to a friend on Facebook or in person in public IS an injustice against gay people. If you don’t feel that way, there’s nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. But don’t argue that this bill is aimed at anything other than removing gays from society.
Did you not read my follow up post where I discussed that I don’t like Dan Savage? However, his character has NOTHING to do with the integrity of his project, which has been co-opted by many others throughout the country who have significantly higher character. My argument is that the Church should MAKE an It Gets Better video based on Church teachings, not condemn it or ban it.
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SMGS127
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First of all, people who leave their spouses during their 40s usually realized it by their early 20s and just tried to fit into society. I have MET people who have done so, and their reasoning was that they felt they needed to date heterosexual to be accepted by anyone. No one ever teaches lifelong celibacy, only that gay people NEED to be straight. When that fails, they think the whole religion is wrong, despite the fact that the religion itself states that gay people do not need to be straight.
Secondly, I 100% know I’m a lesbian. I can enjoy dating guys, but only really because I enjoy having a really close friend that’s a dude that has a lot of the same interests as me (sports, video games, etc.). I honestly could care less about the kissing and further; it doesn’t actively bother me like it does some lesbians, but I also get almost nothing from it. I do things with boyfriends because I don’t want them to feel like I don’t care about them, but I really have no attraction when doing them. This was also true as well in the past, before I was religious, when I used to actually have sex with ex-boyfriends.
Conversely, my most recent ex-girlfriend, despite being a shorter relationship than a lot of my ex-boyfriends, was literally the best relationship I have ever had. I also finally understood what people meant when they talked about the physical/emotional union of energies and feeling completely tied into one person. Lesbian relationships really can’t be explained to those who haven’t experienced them (and actually been attracted; experimenting doesn’t count). But it feels like you find your soul mate very quickly, and your whole world brightens up when with them. There’s a reason behind the adage “a lesbian brings a U-Haul on the second date.”
I also have attractions and gut visceral reactions only to women, always unintentionally (for example, when Victoria’s Secret ads show up on TV). Many girls that I’m friends with I have to actively hold myself back from flirting with, because straight girls flirt back innocently all the time without second thoughts (because it doesn’t mean anything to them). But flirting, etc. always leads me deeper into encouragement towards acting on my SSAs because it reminds me just how better my life was when I was actively lesbian.
Honestly? Being celibate is a really, REALLY terrible life. And also honestly? Outside the disobedience to God, I see no negative traits of being gay. However, because I want to obey God out of love, I am currently just refusing to date. I don’t mind feeling trapped and lonely if I do it in His name. But I also understand why kids who have literally heard nothing their whole life but “gay people are evil” or “look at those f*****s” would want nothing to do with a very hard life, when the people promoting the life treat them like dirt for their attractions or treat them like they can change.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
As if the Church ever advocated criminalized sodomy. I have not read any advocacy by Catholics here for the country to return to pre-Lawrence v Texas days. The pro-gay crowd liberally interprets what the Pope meant saying “who am I to judge gay people” – the subject was about homosexual priests, and he was not talking about judgment of homosexual relations. “I am the son of the Church” should say enough about how he sees a life in imitation of Christ is to be lived.
… meaning the best way to go for the benefit of gays is for the rest of society to sign on completely and fully with gay “marriage” and be quiet. In the meantime, gays should be able to sue florists, bakers, photographers, and church hall owners, for not agreeing to service gay weddings with impunity.
A lot of over-reading there that you made of the posts that did not agree with your views. As for labeling yourself Catholic in a Catholic forum, what did you expect in submitting your positions on homosexuality that are not even close to the Catholic position? The scrutiny was invited by you and lots of keystrokes and time would have been saved had you opted for a more appropriate descriptor of your faith affiliation. Don’t be surprised if there are more who will ask in the future of the disconnect between your stated religion and beliefs on the subject because members go on and off in reading these threads. People forget user names and new members come up all the time.
There have been long time posters, some no longer in good standing, who needed to revise their faith ID, fyi. It’s easy enough to make an excuse that to mislead or confuse is not the intention. An honest descriptor makes for a more streamlined discussion, wouldn’t you agree?
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Question, for the posters who don’t have SSA and disagree with gays:
Were you abused by an opposite sex-relative, or stranger?
Were you “converted” by the neighborhood heterosexual hanging around the school?
I have opposite-sex attraction, and didn’t get it from either of the above.
Why would it be any different for SSA?
How did you “turn” “straight”?
Were you abused by an opposite sex-relative, or stranger?
Were you “converted” by the neighborhood heterosexual hanging around the school?
I have opposite-sex attraction, and didn’t get it from either of the above.
Why would it be any different for SSA?
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JRJOHNSON
Guest
Because gay/lesbian conduct is bad for health just as smoking would be and what you ask is like saying-were you ‘converted’ to be a non-smoker by non-smokers hanging around the school.
Never in life have I heard straights blame childhood sex abuse for reasons they do straight sexual behaviors. Yet sometimes, have heard gays and lesbians say that childhood sexual abuse is the reason they do same sexual behaviors. Also you talk about attractions, when it’s about ending same sex conduct even if attractions don’t change. It’s conduct, not attractions which define. Any sexual behavior can be learned. If a boy is molested in his young years especially repeatedly over time, then it’s more likely he will do gay conduct in adulthood because the sex abuse in youth damaged his mind and caused him to behave in ways he wouldn’t had the abuse not happened. If the boy had not been molested repeatedly, then it’s less likely he would do gay conduct in adulthood. Only those who are dishonest or so biased in thinking that they are deluded deny it…
While they have not conclusively proven same sex behaviors are result of genes, I won’t deny this possibility-but if that is true, it would be the same as alcoholic genes. There are people who become alcoholics because they learn becoming drunkards by seeing this conduct in family, emulating this and then getting addicted. Then some people are alcoholics because they have the alcoholic gene. There is more > 1 cause.
Russians are right in having laws against gay/lesbian propaganda. Gay/lesbian conduct do not result in reproduction-gay/lesbian conduct is bad for health and must be seen the same way as smoking. Sure straight conduct usually doesn’t as birth control is often used, but straight conduct can result in pregnancy while gay/lesbian conduct does not. And again, you are hearing this from a person who is non-religious. Russia was Communist until 1989. As I haven’t been to Russia, I don’t know how religious Russians have become. But some of the Russians who support the laws against gay/lesbian propaganda are atheists, so there are atheists who are against the gay/lesbian agenda.
J.R. Johnson
Thanks for the reply.
My question was a sincere question, not intended as sarcastic in any way, and I’m glad this was understood.
I was really asking only about attractions. I wasn’t abused as a child, as well as I can remember, and my question was why I went for opposite-sex attraction. Another person who might not have been abused might develop SSA.
Obviously, when we’re talking about conduct, somebody’s background might play a role (not just abuse, but the values they’re taught and what they see as adult examples).
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
Or teach kids that bullying is wrong in the first place. It doesn’t matter if you’re gay, obese, etc.Where do you read that holding hands in public is a kind of homosexual activity, or that it will be prosecuted?
The best suicide prevention is to teach children and young people that Jesus loves them, and that He has a purpose for their lives. They don’t need to be “mentored” into a homosexual lifestyle.
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
Because you’re part of a schismatic group that calls themselves “Catholic.” By definition, this does not make you “Catholic” by the commonly accepted definition.
You can say that they have apostolic succession, but so did the Anglicans for awhile - and they certainly were not in union with the Pope.
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