Gays

[Crash001]

I really do appreciate all of your responses so far. I have found that my questions have really made people think about things. I didn’t post these questions to try and change anyone’s mind about anything. Everyone has their own opinions and thoughts on the subject of gays. And if you happen to see me walking down the street holding hands with another female please don’t assume that you know what I’ve been doing in my bedroom, that’s between me and God.

Peace

Spread the Peace as well Slayd.

 

[EasterJoy]

I really do appreciate all of your responses so far. I have found that my questions have really made people think about things. I didn’t post these questions to try and change anyone’s mind about anything. Everyone has their own opinions and thoughts on the subject of gays. And if you happen to see me walking down the street holding hands with another female please don’t assume that you know what I’ve been doing in my bedroom, that’s between me and God.

Peace

It would be a little different if homosexuals pushing for gay marriage recognition just wanted the legal protections of mutual care. Since the movement fights any efforts to extend the privelege to couples who do NOT have a sexual relationship, though–such as elderly siblings or same-sex friends who want to share living expenses and responsibilities–I don’t think this is about keeping the government out of their bedrooms. I think it is about asking society to approve of and encourage what goes on in their bedrooms as the equivalent of marriage.

I don’t support that because it isn’t true.

If homosexuals just wanted the legal advantages of what might be, as far as anyone knows, a monastery or convent of just two people, they’d have a chance. The truth is, the Archdiocese of Portland has said it could support adult unions on that basis. That is not what they are trying to achieve, and in fact in Oregon they flatly rejected it. They want their sexual union to be recognized not only as equal to, but as legally identical to, marriage–for if they were to be given the same thing in all but name, even that would not be sufficient! On that grounds, the Church opposes what they’re doing, because it is wrong.

They may be deluding into thinking that gay unions are identical to heterosexual ones in all but accidentals, but that is a perversion of the truth…which is to say, it is false. I don’t know why it is a mystery that others oppose that, in the Church or out. The emperor has no clothes.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I’m probably going to regret this but I have a few questions.

I don’t understand why some people think that if gays are allowed to marry or have civil unions that somehow it lessens their own marriage vows. Do people think that marriages that are full of hate and abuse lessens a healthy marriage’s vows?

Why can an obviously straight woman walk down the street holding hands with her best friend and no one cares but if two gay women are doing the same they will be chastised?

I’ve heard that being gay is a choice. Why would anyone choose to live a life full of ridicule and anger toward them? And I don’t know about all gays but I know that I grew up with a very health and happy family life.

Most people say that all gays have an agenda of pushing their life onto others. I don’t have an agenda, I just want to understand why.

It doesn’t lessen true marriage. It lessens the perception of marriage in the eyes of a culture that already almost hates the thought of marriage.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I appreciate your honesty and this type of thread makes me appreciate humanity for what it is worth even more. God Bless you on your journey, wherever it may take you.

I do appreciate your point of view. I am not actually gay, but I was trying to put myself into the shoes of those that are. If the Church is going to demand such great sacrifice from these individuals, then I think there should be more support out there for them. People seem to see these individuals as perverted or disgusting when in reality they just want love and companionship and affection just like anyone else in this world. That is a huge thing to give up and people need to acknowledge that and show more compassion and outreach, especially the Church.

I like what a previous poster said about starting a ministry for gay people trying to live chastely that would support them in their efforts. I think that sounds like a very charitable and noble pursuit.

Also, it really irritates me when people take the homosexual argument to the ridiculous extreme and start talking about peopl to say.e having sex with animals. It is not even close to the same thing and is such a horrible thing

 

[Slayd]

I do appreciate your point of view. I am not actually gay, but I was trying to put myself into the shoes of those that are. If the Church is going to demand such great sacrifice from these individuals, then I think there should be more support out there for them. People seem to see these individuals as perverted or disgusting when in reality they just want love and companionship and affection just like anyone else in this world. That is a huge thing to give up and people need to acknowledge that and show more compassion and outreach, especially the Church.

I like what a previous poster said about starting a ministry for gay people trying to live chastely that would support them in their efforts. I think that sounds like a very charitable and noble pursuit.

Also, it really irritates me when people take the homosexual argument to the ridiculous extreme and start talking about peopl to say.e having sex with animals. It is not even close to the same thing and is such a horrible thing/QUOTE]

I’ve never understood that jump either.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Also, it really irritates me when people take the homosexual argument to the ridiculous extreme and start talking about peopl to say.e having sex with animals. It is not even close to the same thing and is such a horrible thing

I am sure someone who engages in the practise would be willing to disagree.
I am also sure that in a different society; possibly one with slightly higher moral standards or different views on sex the following situation might occur:

I hate it when people tell me insert sexual devience here is comparable to homosexuality. It is not even close to the same thing and is such a horrible thing.

 

[EasterJoy]

Also, it really irritates me when people take the homosexual argument to the ridiculous extreme and start talking about peopl to say.e having sex with animals. It is not even close to the same thing and is such a horrible thing

OK, no, the psychological issues involved are quite different. Point granted.

Nevertheless, gay marriage is not even close to the same thing as heterosexual marriage, either. So why tell heterosexual couples that it is no skin off their noses to make their relationships equivalent to ones that are based on sodomy by mutual consent, and that they must be homophobic to think that it is? What skin is it off of a homosexual’s nose if someone else has sexual mores they don’t approve of? Isn’t that a fair question? Live by the sword, die by the sword, kids.

Compare gay marriage to polygamy, and both the polygamists and the gay-marriage advocates are offended…or distance themselves from each other. Now that is the real irony!

 

[Belloc_Fan]

I like what a previous poster said about starting a ministry for gay people trying to live chastely that would support them in their efforts. I think that sounds like a very charitable and noble pursuit.

Such a ministry already exists in some parts of the US. It’s called Courage. In the Diocese of Arlington, Fr. Paul Scalia (son of the Supreme Court Justice) is very active leading it. You can listen to him speak on the issue of homosexuality here:
arlingtondiocese.org/podcasts/2009-01tot_podcast/tot2009-01-05.mp3

He’s quite good. He doesn’t just condemn the sin of homosexuality, but he also takes concrete steps to help homosexually-inclined men and women deal with their temptations towards non-marital sex. I think he does quite a good job of loving the sin and hating the sin at the same time, something which seems to be quite hard on this particular issue for people on both sides.

 

[Nec5]

So you’re comparing yourself to Saint Paul now?

Indeed I am. Indeed you should be. We all should be striving to imitate Christ as Paul attempted. Why aren’t you?

 

[defenderoftruth]

Thoughtfulone;6836296:

I do appreciate your point of view. I am not actually gay, but I was trying to put myself into the shoes of those that are. If the Church is going to demand such great sacrifice from these individuals, then I think there should be more support out there for them. People seem to see these individuals as perverted or disgusting when in reality they just want love and companionship and affection just like anyone else in this world. That is a huge thing to give up and people need to acknowledge that and show more compassion and outreach, especially the Church.

I like what a previous poster said about starting a ministry for gay people trying to live chastely that would support them in their efforts. I think that sounds like a very charitable and noble pursuit.

Also, it really irritates me when people take the homosexual argument to the ridiculous extreme and start talking about peopl to say.e having sex with animals. It is not even close to the same thing and is such a horrible thing

/QUOTE]

I’ve never understood that jump either.

The 18th chapter of Leviticus is mostly about sexual sin Lev. 18:21-is about sacrificing children to the false god Molech, Lev. 18:22 is about homosexuality, and Lev. 18:23 is about beastiality. So God put those together first. (the Holy Spirit leading Moses) So God himself made that “jump”. It’s not a ridiculous extreme at all really. Fact is mixing fabrics, or two kinds of crops etc. (I know that this one will be thrown in as soon as you all see “Leviticus”) are not the same things. God took grave sexual/mortal sins and put them in this chapter and then in Leviticus 20 he gives the punishment for those sins. We aren’t supposed to sacrifice our children to false gods, have sex with animals or allow two people of the same sex to have intercourse with each other. Granted we don’t stone people anymore because as Christians we are to love our enemies but now it’s up to church to punish people (excommunicate) or God on judgment day. With that said that still doesn’t mean it isn’t sinful and that we aren’t supposed be against homosexual relations. Hate the sin love the sinner.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Indeed I am. Indeed you should be. We all should be striving to imitate Christ as Paul attempted. Why aren’t you?

I’ll worry about chastising others for their shortcomings once I have my own under control, which will probably be never. As I said earlier, homosexuals are all too aware of how most Christians view their lifestyles. Saying anything more is self-serving and a good way to feel superior to others whose struggles we cannot comprehend. No thanks.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Slayd;6836835:

The 18th chapter of Leviticus is mostly about sexual sin Lev. 18:21-is about sacrificing children to the false god Molech, Lev. 18:22 is about homosexuality, and Lev. 18:23 is about beastiality. So God put those together first. (the Holy Spirit leading Moses) So God himself made that “jump”. It’s not a ridiculous extreme at all really. Fact is mixing fabrics, or two kinds of crops etc. (I know that this one will be thrown in as soon as you all see “Leviticus”) are not the same things. God took grave sexual/mortal sins and put them in this chapter and then in Leviticus 20 he gives the punishment for those sins. We aren’t supposed to sacrifice our children to false gods, have sex with animals or allow two people of the same sex to have intercourse with each other. Granted we don’t stone people anymore because as Christians we are to love our enemies but now it’s up to church to punish people (excommunicate) or God on judgment day. With that said that still doesn’t mean it isn’t sinful and that we aren’t supposed be against homosexual relations. Hate the sin love the sinner.

Just because a list sexual sins are placed in proximity to each other in the Bible does not mean that they have any other similarities, so no, I do not believe that God saw them as being the same. Bestiality is strictly about sex and nothing more to which an animal can never truly consent (except dolphins, but that’s another story altogether). Homosexuality is about being emotionally, intellectually, and yes, sexually attracted to the same sex. Homosexuals want what we all want. Love, companionship, someone to grow old with and share their lives with. They just want it with someone of the same sex. To compare that with bestiality is dehumanizing and diminishes the struggle and hardships these people go through. I know you would all like to just label them deviants or perverts and call it a day, because then judging them would be so much easier and guilt-free, but it goes much deeper than that.

 

[defenderoftruth]

and yet “thoughtfulone” you have no problem judging me or anyone else that disagrees with your view…

ironic.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

and yet “thoughtfulone” you have no problem judging me or anyone else that disagrees with your view…

ironic.

I’m not judging you, merely disagreeing with the way in which you and others view/deal with homosexuals and their activities. I would just like to see more compassion, that’s all. I don’t think we can err by having “too much compassion”, but there can be much error in judging too harshly, especially when we cannot possibly understand what these people have to go through on a daily basis. Gays do not need to hear from us how we disagree with their lifestyle or how they are in mortal sin, etc. The best thing we can do for them is to try and be a good Christian example, someone who, when they look at us, makes them see the peace, love and understanding that Christ has brought to our lives and in turn, makes them want to be closer to God and possibly start on their own journey toward holiness.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

I’m not judging you, merely disagreeing with the way in which you and others view/deal with homosexuals and their activities. I would just like to see more compassion, that’s all. I don’t think we can err by having “too much compassion”, but there can be much error in judging too harshly, especially when we cannot possibly understand what these people have to go through on a daily basis.

This is true – we should be compassionate. But compassion often means intervening when someone you love is doing something which is a risk to themselves or others. It wouldn’t be “compassionate” to let your loved ones drink themselves to death without raising a word of alarm, just because “they already know” what society thinks of alcoholism.

Gays do not need to hear from us how we disagree with their lifestyle or how they are in mortal sin, etc.

What does this mean? Or maybe put better, is there some part of the Bible where you’re extracting this teaching?

The best thing we can do for them is to try and be a good Christian example, someone who, when they look at us, makes them see the peace, love and understanding that Christ has brought to our lives and in turn, makes them want to be closer to God and possibly start on their own journey toward holiness.

I agree with this part, too. I mean, clearly, we should be as holy and righteous as we can be, and as loving and compassionate as we can be. But is that an argument in favor of silence in the face of sin, or taking an unpopular stand?

 

[EPMChristensen]

Well, I just spent about 15 minutes skimming through dictionaries online and in my house, perusing over the word sexuality. And in none of my investigations did I find one single reference to love or emotion.

Taking this into account, I started thinking about the natures of sexuality and love existing as separate but entangled entities, and I realized that there is little distinction between the sum of a homosexual individual and the sum of a heterosexual individual.

You bring up an excellent point here, defenderoftruth, that

Homosexuals want what we all want. Love, companionship, someone to grow old with and share their lives with. They just want it with someone of the same sex.

However, I feel that this ignores one essential circumstance. In saying this, you apply that there are people with two different sexualities that want to satisfy their souls in the same way, instead of saying that there are two people who satisfy their souls in the same way that want to have sex with different individuals.

It may seem like a petty distinction, but in my vast experience with homosexuals and heterosexuals alike, they certainly care about the subtle differences between each classification.

I called up one of my homosexual friends, asked him about the subject, and he said this:

“We both love, breathe, feel - just like Shylock’s speech from Merchant of Venice - but our only difference is that I want to have sex with people in my gender. I mean, sure, I could date a woman, but the relationship would be entirely platonic because I wouldn’t have any desire to be around her in a physical manifest. To the same token, I feel that straight men and women have the capacity to bear profound love for their respective genders, but their sexual desires don’t follow their hearts. In this way, it’s not so much that being gay makes me love men, it’s that being gay makes me want to have carnal relations with other men. My sexuality and my heart are not connected, but neither are they mutually exclusive - it’s a complicated subject.”

I have to admit I agree with him. In this subject, it seems like most people believe homosexuals to be different people who do different things instead of similar people who do different things. I believe the clarity is extremely important when we start talking about who’s judging who - though, in the end, none of that will matter, now will it?

Respectfully,
Evan-Paul

 

[defenderoftruth]

EPMChristensen

I didn’t say that quote I was quoting “thoughtfulone”-who thinks that homosexuals are just poor misunderstood people that are basically the same as heteros. I personally think homosexuals confuse lust for love, and statistically speaking (look it up yourself) they have many, many, sexual partners and aren’t interested in “a relationship”. Most practicing homosexuals I’ve met/seen are only interested in sexual gratification. These are not the same as SSA people that genuinely hate the attraction they feel and want to be free from it this is militant practicing homosexuals we are talking about.

 

[defenderoftruth]

Hmm looks like the quotes are all screwed up on this page somehow “slayd” was quoted as the one who talked about Leviticus 18 and beastiality (people wanted to know how someone could “jump” to that) when I did, and then I was quoted as saying that homosexuals are looking for “someone to grow old with etc.” when that was Thoughtfulone.

All I can say is I’m not for homosexuality or homosexual intercourse/rights. Just so there is no mix up.

This thread has become a “poor practicing homosexuals need marriage too-with eachother” which is TOTALLY unacceptable in my book-or in the scriptures for that matter.

 

[Crash001]

Well, I just spent about 15 minutes skimming through dictionaries online and in my house, perusing over the word sexuality. And in none of my investigations did I find one single reference to love or emotion.

>>True. I believe spouses should be making love to each other vs. have sex.

Taking this into account, I started thinking about the natures of sexuality and love existing as separate but entangled entities, and I realized that there is little distinction between the sum of a homosexual individual and the sum of a heterosexual individual.

>>…if you are having sex vs. making love.

You bring up an excellent point here, defenderoftruth, that

However, I feel that this ignores one essential circumstance. In saying this, you apply that there are people with two different sexualities that want to satisfy their souls in the same way, instead of saying that there are two people who satisfy their souls in the same way that want to have sex with different individuals.

It may seem like a petty distinction, but in my vast experience with homosexuals and heterosexuals alike, they certainly care about the subtle differences between each classification.

I called up one of my homosexual friends, asked him about the subject, and he said this:

“We both love, breathe, feel - just like Shylock’s speech from Merchant of Venice - but our only difference is that I want to have sex with people in my gender. I mean, sure, I could date a woman, but the relationship would be entirely platonic because I wouldn’t have any desire to be around her in a physical manifest. To the same token, I feel that straight men and women have the capacity to bear profound love for their respective genders, but their sexual desires don’t follow their hearts. In this way, it’s not so much that being gay makes me love men, it’s that being gay makes me want to have carnal relations with other men. My sexuality and my heart are not connected, but neither are they mutually exclusive - it’s a complicated subject.”

>>I don’t think anyone discounts the feelings that someone may or may not have.

I have to admit I agree with him. In this subject, it seems like most people believe homosexuals to be different people who do different things instead of similar people who do different things. I believe the clarity is extremely important when we start talking about who’s judging who - though, in the end, none of that will matter, now will it?

>>There’s a difference between judging and accepting what is right and wrong behavior, whether you’re Christian or otherwise. I think the point does come down to a moral decision and whether you feel that the sexual act, is a loving act, AND that it intended for reproduction (w/ God having so say in this) or just a sexual act and loving act. If it’s a sexual and loving act, you can then justify that just about anything can be acceptable. I’m being kind here.

Respectfully,
Evan-Paul

It sounds like your homosexual friend is very comfortable with his/her decisions and state in life.

 

[EPMChristensen]

In this circumstance I make no declarations; what God says and feels are things that I have no business supposing, and I also have no business making judgments in place of God.

Instead, the purpose of my previous post was to state that homosexuals are, at core, people just like ourselves, and being constructs of God, are deserving of the same moral accommodations that any other human receives. They are people with different wiring, not different people with different wiring.

And, for the record, I thought God viewed all sins as equally sinful - doesn’t that make order an inconsequential? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I don’t believe it is anyone’s business to insure the salvation of others; it is to pray that they do, and that they follow examples in accordance.

At any rate, all I can do is live my life with a constant quest for peace and communion with my God.