Gays

[EasterJoy]

In this circumstance I make no declarations; what God says and feels are things that I have no business supposing, and I also have no business making judgments in place of God.

Instead, the purpose of my previous post was to state that homosexuals are, at core, people just like ourselves, and being constructs of God, are deserving of the same moral accommodations that any other human receives. They are people with different wiring, not different people with different wiring.

And, for the record, I thought God viewed all sins as equally sinful - doesn’t that make order an inconsequential? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I don’t believe it is anyone’s business to insure the salvation of others; it is to pray that they do, and that they follow examples in accordance.

At any rate, all I can do is live my life with a constant quest for peace and communion with my God.

A cigar is just a cigar? I don’t believe that you believe this, not for a minute.

There is a big difference between judging another person’s culpability before God and judging whether or not a particular action is morally permissible. I don’t believe that you think these are the same thing.

Where did you ever get the idea that all sins are equally sinful? Do you really think jaywalking is equivalent to murder, or that you have no business publicly commenting on the morality of either jaywalking or murder or anything in-between?

“So Pilate said to him, “Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?” Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.” John 19:10-11

And if you do think that all sins are equally sinful, how does it follow that no one is supposed to say out loud, “This action is sinful”? If all sins are equally sinful, if there is no societal responsibility to encourage virtue or discourage sin, then why do we have laws at all? If you’ve never been married, how can you say that a man should not kill his wife? Isn’t that judgemental of us, since we’ve never had to be married to her? Oh, but homosexuality is not murder…except that you said there is no difference in sins. Cheating against your brother at Old Maid will get you to Hell just as fast as slitting his throat while he sleeps!

I don’t advocate grabbing gays who want to marry by the lapels and telling them they’re sinners, but I also don’t think it judgmental to state the plain fact that the Church teaches that homosexual actions are intrinsically wrong. It is the truth.

 

[Slayd]

wow I’m really sorry that I’ve gotten so many people riled up. I really didn’t mean to cause any problems.

I hope that everyone finds their own peace with these issues.

Peace

 

[Thoughtfulone]

A cigar is just a cigar? I don’t believe that you believe this, not for a minute.

There is a big difference between judging another person’s culpability before God and judging whether or not a particular action is morally permissible. I don’t believe that you think these are the same thing.

Where did you ever get the idea that all sins are equally sinful? Do you really think jaywalking is equivalent to murder, or that you have no business publicly commenting on the morality of either jaywalking or murder or anything in-between?

“So Pilate said to him, “Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?” Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.” John 19:10-11

And if you do think that all sins are equally sinful, how does it follow that no one is supposed to say out loud, “This action is sinful”? If all sins are equally sinful, if there is no societal responsibility to encourage virtue or discourage sin, then why do we have laws at all? If you’ve never been married, how can you say that a man should not kill his wife? Isn’t that judgemental of us, since we’ve never had to be married to her? Oh, but homosexuality is not murder…except that you said there is no difference in sins. Cheating against your brother at Old Maid will get you to Hell just as fast as slitting his throat while he sleeps!

I don’t advocate grabbing gays who want to marry by the lapels and telling them they’re sinners, but I also don’t think it judgmental to state the plain fact that the Church teaches that homosexual actions are intrinsically wrong. It is the truth.

Yes it is the truth that the Church teaches that homosexual activity is wrong. And EVERYONE knows that. You have to be living under a rock not to know that. So there is absolutely no point in reiterating that to anyone other than to make yourself feel superior in some way or to make someone else feel bad. I just don’t get why people feel this compulsive need to do so.

Also, of course all sins are not equal, but the Catholic Church is well-known for placing HUGE emphasis on sexual “sins”, be they sins of homosexuality, masturbation, contraception, etc. I think that these sins have gotten somewhat blown out of proportion in the sense that other things (especially where our fellow man is concerned) have fallen by the wayside. We’re told we’re in mortal sin and in danger of Hell if we masturbate occasionally, but we can walk right by a homeless person like he’s a pile of garbage and nobody makes a big deal about that. I think we need to put things into perspective and try to resist the human tendency to obsess over all things sexual.

 

[TEPO]

I’m probably going to regret this but I have a few questions.

I don’t understand why some people think that if gays are allowed to marry or have civil unions that somehow it lessens their own marriage vows. Do people think that marriages that are full of hate and abuse lessens a healthy marriage’s vows?

Why can an obviously straight woman walk down the street holding hands with her best friend and no one cares but if two gay women are doing the same they will be chastised?

I’ve heard that being gay is a choice. Why would anyone choose to live a life full of ridicule and anger toward them? And I don’t know about all gays but I know that I grew up with a very health and happy family life.

Most people say that all gays have an agenda of pushing their life onto others. I don’t have an agenda, I just want to understand why.

IMHO, I think that most people are against “open” homosexuality (including gay marriage), because although not all homosexuals are gay by choice, there are many who do in fact “make the choice” to be gay.

I think some people blame the retro-coolness of the gay community for those who do make the choice… I mean lets face it - its cool to be gay with all the modern techno music, the parties, the parades, the rallies, etc… Its a whole lifestyle in itself, which is seen by some as an “agenda”.

 

[Slayd]

IMHO, I think that most people are against “open” homosexuality (including gay marriage), because although not all homosexuals are gay by choice, there are many who do in fact “make the choice” to be gay.

I think some people blame the retro-coolness of the gay community for those who do make the choice… I mean lets face it - its cool to be gay with all the modern techno music, the parties, the parades, the rallies, etc… Its a whole lifestyle in itself, which is seen by some as an “agenda”.

I think I’m one of those weird gays. I’ve never been to the parties, parades, rallies, or meetings lol

 

[TEPO]

I think I’m one of those weird gays. I’ve never been to the parties, parades, rallies, or meetings lol

Oh, I did’nt mean to say that all gay people do these things, it’s just that I have only been close to a few people who call themselves “gay”, and they do patake in these things.

Of course too, they also take every shot at the CC around me that they can, and would never convert to Catholic or any other Christian denomination for that matter.

But the problem has never been with “Gays”… The problem lies in the fact that even though we claim to live in an “individualistic” society, we all still rub-off onto each other, and allowing gay marriage might show young people that they can make a choice to be gay or not… A choice that would not otherwise exist.

Just imagine what our society might look like 15 generations down the line. Would humanity be better off or worse? That’s my only question, and all that really matters to me.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes it is the truth that the Church teaches that homosexual activity is wrong. And EVERYONE knows that. You have to be living under a rock not to know that. So there is absolutely no point in reiterating that to anyone other than to make yourself feel superior in some way or to make someone else feel bad. I just don’t get why people feel this compulsive need to do so.

Also, of course all sins are not equal, but the Catholic Church is well-known for placing HUGE emphasis on sexual “sins”, be they sins of homosexuality, masturbation, contraception, etc. I think that these sins have gotten somewhat blown out of proportion in the sense that other things (especially where our fellow man is concerned) have fallen by the wayside. We’re told we’re in mortal sin and in danger of Hell if we masturbate occasionally, but we can walk right by a homeless person like he’s a pile of garbage and nobody makes a big deal about that. I think we need to put things into perspective and try to resist the human tendency to obsess over all things sexual.

If you are a thoughtful one, you need to use logic. That one kind of sin prospers in relative obscurity doesn’t make the ones getting the attention into virtues. That’s a red herring. This thread is so full of false conclusions like that, it makes one’s head spin.

If there is no point in reiterating what the Church teaches on a Catholic web site to a person who asks why Catholics think what they think, then what, pray tell, was the point in coming on the forum and asking “I don’t understand why some people think that if gays are allowed to marry or have civil unions that somehow it lessens their own marriage vows”?

Are you telling me, then, that the OP, too, gets some sort of bait-and-switch sense of superiority from luring people into answering what he apparently pretended was an honest question, so that it could be complained that those who answer are only saying what EVERYBODY knows?

Tell me how a person can wonder what difference it makes to pretend that gay sex is the same as marital sex can turn around and complain that it is sick to compare people who commit sodomy with people who engage in bestiality? Why do we hear that gay marriage and polygamy are just totally different issues, but that we shouldn’t judge other people? That is just talking out of both sides of the mouth! If that were true, why aren’t gays defending polygamists and people who engage in bestiality? I mean, what is the obsession with other people’s sex lives?

Do you think that guys who want more than one wife choose to be that way? Don’t you know that this is entirely rooted in biology, and the rule in the animal world? Do you know how hard it is to have two women who both want to be married to you, and to have society get on some Victorian high horse about it, so that you have to hide your relationship and keep moving your children around so that the government won’t take them away? Do you have any idea what Mormon fundamentalists go through, when they would be perfectly happy to just live and let live?

The truth is, the human tendency is to be sympathetic towards some sins–to the point of calling them “sins”, as if their inclusion in the category was a technical mistake by some theologian–and to condemn others.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

If you are a thoughtful one, you need to use logic. That one kind of sin prospers in relative obscurity doesn’t make the ones getting the attention into virtues. That’s a red herring. This thread is so full of false conclusions like that, it makes one’s head spin.

If there is no point in reiterating what the Church teaches on a Catholic web site to a person who asks why Catholics think what they think, then what, pray tell, was the point in coming on the forum and asking “I don’t understand why some people think that if gays are allowed to marry or have civil unions that somehow it lessens their own marriage vows”?

Are you telling me, then, that the OP, too, gets some sort of bait-and-switch sense of superiority from luring people into answering what he apparently pretended was an honest question, so that it could be complained that those who answer are only saying what EVERYBODY knows?

Tell me how a person can wonder what difference it makes to pretend that gay sex is the same as marital sex can turn around and complain that it is sick to compare people who commit sodomy with people who engage in bestiality? Why do we hear that gay marriage and polygamy are just totally different issues, but that we shouldn’t judge other people? That is just talking out of both sides of the mouth! If that were true, why aren’t gays defending polygamists and people who engage in bestiality? I mean, what is the obsession with other people’s sex lives?

Do you think that guys who want more than one wife choose to be that way? Don’t you know that this is entirely rooted in biology, and the rule in the animal world? Do you know how hard it is to have two women who both want to be married to you, and to have society get on some Victorian high horse about it, so that you have to hide your relationship and keep moving your children around so that the government won’t take them away? Do you have any idea what Mormon fundamentalists go through, when they would be perfectly happy to just live and let live?

The truth is, the human tendency is to be sympathetic towards some sins–to the point of calling them “sins”, as if their inclusion in the category was a technical mistake by some theologian–and to condemn others.

Well said.

Thoughtful One, I think you’re reading a lot of malice into the comments of all of the people defending the Catholic position on this thread. And perhaps some people spoke maliciously, I can’t say. But I think a lot of us were striving to give an honest answer to what seems to have been an honest question from the OP.

You’re right that people know that the Catholic Church is opposed to homosexuality, and to gay marriage. You’re wrong if you think that people understand why the Church is opposed. And there’s a **world **of difference between those two things. The OP seemingly recognized this, and asked the why.

I know there are some people who hate homosexuals as individuals. But a lot more of us, and from what I can tell, the overwhelming majority of those responding to this thread, love them, and earnestly desire what’s best for them.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think I’m one of those weird gays. I’ve never been to the parties, parades, rallies, or meetings lol

I told my husband the other day that it would be better if they’d just re-name “Gay Pride” parades “Extravagantly Eccentric” parades. That way, all the straights who would love to get all zany like that could join in without feeling self-conscious, and all the gays who would not be caught dead combining a black bowler hat with a pink tutu and feathers wouldn’t feel as if there was something wrong with them for being so reserved!

I don’t think people should be made to feel ashamed of what they are, and that is true even if what they are poses some particular temptations. After all, if a person has ADHD, he’s going to have a very hard time with focussing his attention long enough to get any work done, but is that something to be ashamed of? Is he more liable to give himself to leisure instead of work he should be doing? Sure, but it doesn’t mean he can’t learn to manage what is truly required of him.

You can have compassion without giving up on his ability to learn what it is he needs to do to show up on time and pay attention when it is necessary. And yes, surely God knows what he really is capable of and what he isn’t. We can help him to cope with what he’s coping with, help him to try to see if he can overcome his temptations without totally submerging who he is and without chiming in on how pleased God is with his particular progress.

If your mule falls in the well, it doesn’t count as “getting him out of the well” when you pull him out as a carcass, one piece at a time! You have to preserve his life and integrity, or getting out of the well is besides the point. You’ve destroyed the whole reason it was a tragedy for him to have been in the well in the first place. It would be just as bad as leaving him there, and probably far worse.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

If you are a thoughtful one, you need to use logic. That one kind of sin prospers in relative obscurity doesn’t make the ones getting the attention into virtues. That’s a red herring. This thread is so full of false conclusions like that, it makes one’s head spin.

If there is no point in reiterating what the Church teaches on a Catholic web site to a person who asks why Catholics think what they think, then what, pray tell, was the point in coming on the forum and asking “I don’t understand why some people think that if gays are allowed to marry or have civil unions that somehow it lessens their own marriage vows”?

Are you telling me, then, that the OP, too, gets some sort of bait-and-switch sense of superiority from luring people into answering what he apparently pretended was an honest question, so that it could be complained that those who answer are only saying what EVERYBODY knows?

Tell me how a person can wonder what difference it makes to pretend that gay sex is the same as marital sex can turn around and complain that it is sick to compare people who commit sodomy with people who engage in bestiality? Why do we hear that gay marriage and polygamy are just totally different issues, but that we shouldn’t judge other people? That is just talking out of both sides of the mouth! If that were true, why aren’t gays defending polygamists and people who engage in bestiality? I mean, what is the obsession with other people’s sex lives?

Do you think that guys who want more than one wife choose to be that way? Don’t you know that this is entirely rooted in biology, and the rule in the animal world? Do you know how hard it is to have two women who both want to be married to you, and to have society get on some Victorian high horse about it, so that you have to hide your relationship and keep moving your children around so that the government won’t take them away? Do you have any idea what Mormon fundamentalists go through, when they would be perfectly happy to just live and let live?

The truth is, the human tendency is to be sympathetic towards some sins–to the point of calling them “sins”, as if their inclusion in the category was a technical mistake by some theologian–and to condemn others.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not faulting anyone here for answering the OP’s question. That’s what this forum is for. I am faulting people who feel the need to do this “in the real world”; people who feel like they HAVE to say something when they encounter a gay person, be it a snide comment under their breath or a full-on sermon. I am mostly taking issue with people like a previous poster (I forget who it was, and I am far too lazy to go back and check) who said that we should “cast them out”. Unless someone asks, as is the case here, I think everyone should just mind their own business and try to set a good Christian example. THAT is the way to preach the gospel most effectively, as St. Francis was well-aware.

As far as bestiality goes, an animal cannot consent to sex. Comparing bestiality to homosexuality takes all of the emotional aspects out of it and turns homosexuality into a strictly biological urge and perversion, which it is not. Nobody wants to share their life and grow old with and live out their hopes and fears and dreams with a sheep. That is the difference. As far as polygamy goes, well, it’s another issue. I personally believe that to be more dangerous than gay marriage because of all the children involved, but again, the only marriages I am concerned about are marriages sanctioned by God, not civil unions, which is essentially what all state-sanctioned marriages are.

Like I said, I would like it if people stopped obsessing over everyone else’s sex lives and just tried to be more charitable toward their fellow man. I think that would go a long way towards making the world a better place.

 

[Slayd]

Well said.

Thoughtful One, I think you’re reading a lot of malice into the comments of all of the people defending the Catholic position on this thread. And perhaps some people spoke maliciously, I can’t say. But I think a lot of us were striving to give an honest answer to what seems to have been an honest question from the OP.

You’re right that people know that the Catholic Church is opposed to homosexuality, and to gay marriage. You’re wrong if you think that people understand why the Church is opposed. And there’s a **world **of difference between those two things. The OP seemingly recognized this, and asked the why.

I know there are some people who hate homosexuals as individuals. But a lot more of us, and from what I can tell, the overwhelming majority of those responding to this thread, love them, and earnestly desire what’s best for them.

Thank you for understanding my point of the questions. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind about gay people. I just want to understand and this forum seemed like the best place to ask and get honest answers.

And I would never call someone a “bigot” just because they saw things differently than I do. I come on this forum to learn not just about the Catholic Church but to meet different people and broaden my little world because where I live is right smack in the middle of the Baptist Bible Belt and finding someone to talk to is a little hard to do. So in my world not only am I looked down on because of my “sexual orientation” but also because I’m converting to the Catholic Church. So I’m sorry if anyone took my questions as “an agenda” or “pushing my life in someone’s face”. I just wanted to try an understand what everyone else thinks and feels.

Thank you all for your honesty.

Peace

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Thank you for understanding my point of the questions. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind about gay people. I just want to understand and this forum seemed like the best place to ask and get honest answers.

And I would never call someone a “bigot” just because they saw things differently than I do. I come on this forum to learn not just about the Catholic Church but to meet different people and broaden my little world because where I live is right smack in the middle of the Baptist Bible Belt and finding someone to talk to is a little hard to do. So in my world not only am I looked down on because of my “sexual orientation” but also because I’m converting to the Catholic Church. So I’m sorry if anyone took my questions as “an agenda” or “pushing my life in someone’s face”. I just wanted to try an understand what everyone else thinks and feels.

Thank you all for your honesty.

Peace

I don’t think anyone thinks you’re trying to push an agenda. I think what you’re doing is admirable, especially in the Bible belt of all places! Go you

 

[Nec5]

Like I said, I would like it if people stopped obsessing over everyone else’s sex lives and just tried to be more charitable toward their fellow man. I think that would go a long way towards making the world a better place.

That is a naive way of viewing our interaction with the world and for many of us, the American culture. What do we do when public school cover gay sex as normal and okay? I guess we sit there and charitably eat it and not obsess. What do we do when our system of government wants marriage, which is based on a Judeo-Christian philosophy and religious world view, to be equated with 2 of the same sex, 3 of varying sexes, related people, and so forth? I guess we sit there and charitably eat it.

I guess God was wrong with Sodom and Gomorrah. I guess he should not have obsessed over individual’s sex lives. He should have been more charitable rather than http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3408/800pxjohnmartinsodomand.jpg

Your views of bestiality don’t wash because there could be an emotional connection as there is with polygamy and incest and cactus plants and all other disordered and immoral acts. Stop judging. If they are consenting adults, who are you to obsess over their sex lives?

And no, I don’t blame homosexuality at all for “destroying” marriage. Divorce, relativism, and positivism (no doubt brilliantly seeded by the devil) did the grunt work there. The acceptance of homosexuality as mainstream is a just a clear unavoidable sign of how far we have fallen.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Thank you for understanding my point of the questions. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind about gay people. I just want to understand and this forum seemed like the best place to ask and get honest answers.

And I would never call someone a “bigot” just because they saw things differently than I do. I come on this forum to learn not just about the Catholic Church but to meet different people and broaden my little world because where I live is right smack in the middle of the Baptist Bible Belt and finding someone to talk to is a little hard to do. So in my world not only am I looked down on because of my “sexual orientation” but also because I’m converting to the Catholic Church. So I’m sorry if anyone took my questions as “an agenda” or “pushing my life in someone’s face”. I just wanted to try an understand what everyone else thinks and feels.

Thank you all for your honesty.

Peace

Eve Tushnet is a conservative Catholic convert (her father is a pretty famous Harvard prof) who self-identifies as a lesbian. She’s celibate, but she deals pretty exclusively with homosexual temptations, so she means it in that sense, I take it. Anyways, I hear her name thrown out a lot as someone who is able to speak to both sides of the gay/Church tension.

I don’t know a whole heck of a lot about her, other than that Mark Shea likes her and I like Mark Shea. The NY Times did a profile on her a few weeks ago because she was giving interesting arguments against gay marriage – they thought it weird that she self-identified as gay while opposing the so-called “gay agenda.” So if you’re still looking, you might look her way, or see if you can track down some good materials from her.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

That is a naive way of viewing our interaction with the world and for many of us, the American culture. What do we do when public school cover gay sex as normal and okay? I guess we sit there and charitably eat it and not obsess. What do we do when our system of government wants marriage, which is based on a Judeo-Christian philosophy and religious world view, to be equated with 2 of the same sex, 3 of varying sexes, related people, and so forth? I guess we sit there and charitably eat it.

I guess God was wrong with Sodom and Gomorrah. I guess he should not have obsessed over individual’s sex lives. He should have been more charitable rather than http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3408/800pxjohnmartinsodomand.jpg

Your views of bestiality don’t wash because there could be an emotional connection as there is with polygamy and incest and cactus plants and all other disordered and immoral acts. Stop judging. If they are consenting adults, who are you to obsess over their sex lives?

And no, I don’t blame homosexuality at all for “destroying” marriage. Divorce, relativism, and positivism (no doubt brilliantly seeded by the devil) did the grunt work there. The acceptance of homosexuality as mainstream is a just a clear unavoidable sign of how far we have fallen.

God can do what he wants. I’m not God. That is why I don’t sit in judgement on everyone. See how that works?

Yes, there COULD be an emotional connection with polygamy. What is your point? Incest is different because of genetics. I think you know that. I won’t even justify the cactus comment with a response.

When the Catholic Church starts marrying gays or allowing people to have multiple spouses or marry their brothers or mothers or fathers and claiming that these unions are blessed by God THEN I will have a problem with it. Otherwise, it’s just a damn piece of paper given out at the courthouse. Who cares?

 

[Slayd]

Eve Tushnet is a conservative Catholic convert (her father is a pretty famous Harvard prof) who self-identifies as a lesbian. She’s celibate, but she deals pretty exclusively with homosexual temptations, so she means it in that sense, I take it. Anyways, I hear her name thrown out a lot as someone who is able to speak to both sides of the gay/Church tension.

I don’t know a whole heck of a lot about her, other than that Mark Shea likes her and I like Mark Shea. The NY Times did a profile on her a few weeks ago because she was giving interesting arguments against gay marriage – they thought it weird that she self-identified as gay while opposing the so-called “gay agenda.” So if you’re still looking, you might look her way, or see if you can track down some good materials from her.

Thank you for the info about Eve Tushnet. I’ve been reading her blogs and I just can’t stop.

 

[Miserys_Fence]

I don’t know of any straight females who aren’t children who walk around holding hands.

My adult daughter and I hold hands in public quite frequently (we are both straight). Other than the obvious age difference, people generally wouldn’t assume we are mother and daughter; she looks nothing at all like me, in coloring, features, or build.

Miz

 

[Nec5]

God can do what he wants. I’m not God. That is why I don’t sit in judgement on everyone. See how that works?

Yes, there COULD be an emotional connection with polygamy. What is your point? Incest is different because of genetics. I think you know that. I won’t even justify the cactus comment with a response.

When the Catholic Church starts marrying gays or allowing people to have multiple spouses or marry their brothers or mothers or fathers and claiming that these unions are blessed by God THEN I will have a problem with it. Otherwise, it’s just a damn piece of paper given out at the courthouse. Who cares?

Yeah, I see how your non-judgment works. You sit idly by while evil thrives. Well done. I’m sure you can find that ideal in the Bible.

Morality and cultural cohesion are the bedrocks of this society. What is allowed and recognized in the legal world affects the rest of the culture. It is our society. Why would you simply cede it to the other side? Tolerance?

Incest is not different simply because of genetics. Gay couples cannot reproduce. Solution? They adopt, and no one says a thing. The same would apply to incest couples. Eventually, adoption won’t be necessary. Genes can be changed to offer sperm/egg solutions just as they are changed to determine sex in other countries. By the way, your argument is that gays don’t choose their condition, so isn’t that a genetic issue as well?

And yes, cacti count. Who are you to judge? Using your logic, why do you care if the secular world accepts bestiality or plant marriages? As long as it’s not in the church, right?

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Yeah, I see how your non-judgment works. You sit idly by while evil thrives. Well done. I’m sure you can find that ideal in the Bible.

Morality and cultural cohesion are the bedrocks of this society. What is allowed and recognized in the legal world affects the rest of the culture. It is our society. Why would you simply cede it to the other side? Tolerance?

Incest is not different simply because of genetics. Gay couples cannot reproduce. Solution? They adopt, and no one says a thing. The same would apply to incest couples. Eventually, adoption won’t be necessary. Genes can be changed to offer sperm/egg solutions just as they are changed to determine sex in other countries. By the way, your argument is that gays don’t choose their condition, so isn’t that a genetic issue as well?

And yes, cacti count. Who are you to judge? Using your logic, why do you care if the secular world accepts bestiality or plant marriages? As long as it’s not in the church, right?

I do NOT sit idly by. I behave like a kind and loving Christian and I do my best to love my neighbor even when it is difficult. The example of this alone will do more to change hearts than hundreds of you people “casting out” the gays (whatever the heck that means) or holding your little protests.

Incest is so wrong partially because of inbreeding and the corruption of the gene pool. That is what I meant by saying it’s a different scenario.

And gay couples have disproportionately adopted and given wonderful homes to countless children with AIDS or with SEVERE handicaps that would have simply DIED in orphanages because these oh-so-loving straight couples you’re so excited about don’t want anything to do with them. A great number of gay couples just have so much love to give that they will take whatever child they can get, be they emotionally or physically handicapped or dying of a horrible disease. They take these children in and love them and care for them, grateful for the mere CHANCE to be parents while so many straight couples sit around for years waiting for the PERFECT, white, healthy, beautiful, infant baby because they won’t accept anything less. THAT is obeying the commandment Jesus gave to us. LOVE.

And in case you are not aware, a cactus is not a sentient being. A cactus cannot love you back. A cactus cannot express itself physically, verbally or emotionally because it is a plant and not a person. Do you understand?

 

[vera_dicere]

Civil unions normalise SAA, it makes it alright to act on it. It leads to this sort of mindset:

3news.co.nz/Cool-to-be-gay/tabid/371/articleID/165779/Default.aspx

Is this what we want for children? The so called “real” lesbians in this video, I have to wonder if they really are gay.

So while Judy and Eric’s marriage may not be in danger from Bob and Steve being able to wed, there are greater things at risk than the individual marriage of hetrosexuals. The whole foundation of marriage is looking shaky.

Pre-marital sex has lead to an increase in divorce, unplanned pregnancy, STDs, and a whole host of emotional and spiritual problems. Civil Unions will cause its own problems.

Civil unions were legalised in NZL in the early '00s and now kids are openly gay and their parents think its “cool”?

How is this not a concern to people?

And even if civil unions/gay marriage did not harm the foundation of marriage or Judy and Eric’s marriage, it is harming the souls of countless people. That’s what we, as Catholics, as Christians shoudl be concerned about.