Gender and Catholicism

[PennyinCanada]

I’ve been reading some of the threads on this website and I’ve been struck by the barely concealed hatred and blatant arrogance of some commenters on topics like non-catholic religions and LGBT people.

Do you think people in non-catholic religions and LGBT people have hatred and arrogance?
Of course they do. Because they belong to the human experience. They are human beings.

Why are you putting Catholics in a box so that you can highlight their sinfulness?

As part of your paper are you going on forums for non-Catholic religions and LGBT communities?

We are sinful. I wish that you would rather study, not sin and our fallen nature, but the lives of the saints who did extraordinary works of love and mercy. This will lift you and draw you to be a most amazing version of yourself.

 

[Joe_5859]

If you really want a more accurate assessment on the average Catholic’s views, it would be better to do it in person.

Indeed. Culling quotes from the same handful of CAF posters who jump headlong into all the LGBT threads would be of limited utility, even if one’s objective was to gauge what Catholics in the pews think and feel as opposed to what the Catholic Church actually teaches and believes.

Pulling stats from CARA or Pew Research would probably be the most useful for such a paper.

Still, even if one’s objective is to look at what the boots on the ground are saying, to have a thorough, well-rounded paper, you still need to look at what the Catholic teaching actually is with sources like the Catechism (or for this paper, looking at John Paul II’s “Theology of the Body” would be a must).

Further, the Catholic Church is global. Most of the posters here are from the U.S. And even we don’t really represent accurately the Catholic Church in America as a whole.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I know this isn’t exactly what you’re asking, but if you want an interview with somebody who considers himself well-catechized, I’d be happy to do so.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Here is something you might keep in mind. The Catholic Church is the most female of all churches. It’s the bride of Christ. And aside from the Holy Trinity which is Devine, it’s most powerful person us a woman. Fully human. Woman. A woman that all those Male popes, priests and husbands bow down before, venerate, pray to, listen to and live dearly. There is no other church, no other religion with such a powerful woman.

 

[chessnerd321]

I don’t know the nature of your paper, I’ll say that right off the bat.

But if your intention is to write a paper that reflects what the church believes don’t quote this forum. It would be very very dishonest to pretend that we are a Catholic source with any authority. Catholics believe all manner of things that are absurd.

As for your particular claim I would suggest the following viewpoint you may not have considered. First off all Catholics have the same role, fundamentally: holiness. Being holy themselves, with God’s help. And helping others become holy.

Reading between the lines, I suspect you take issue with the all male priesthood. First off I completely support the all male priesthood. But I can see why many think it’s strange. I won’t argue why it’s not. But hopefully I can help you see why it’s not some sexist power grab.

The answer is simple. As I said. Holiness is the highest goal. Who is the most holy? Priests? NO The saints. The martyrs. They hold the highest office in the church. They are the leaders. They mold and shape our church. There are abundant female saints. Many of which changed the church forever. Try reading about these wonderful women:

1. Mary, Mother of God.
2. St Joan of Arc
3. St. Catherine of Siena (a doctor of the church which means she contributed significantly to it’s theology and philosophy)
4. St. Therese of Lisieux
5. St. Therese of Avila (also a Dr. Of the church)
6. St. Kateri
7. St. Lucy, who we don’t know much about but I decided to mention because it’s her feast day! (St. Lucy pray for us)

As you see the church is FULL of powerful women. Interceding for us. We even call the Virgin Mary the greatest saint! How’s that for empowerment?

God bless you in your finals and final papers. Hope I was helpful.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

“Do not post anything on this web site that you do not want to remain online permanently”.

Which in no way means we agree to be research subjects.
That simply means this post , unless I delete it within a given time, will be readable until this forum ceases to exist .

I will agree to disagree with you about whether using posts from public form has go through an ethics committee.

You are free to disagree with me, however you will find yourself in opposition from the academic world over issues like this.

The OP is looking for data on the attitudes of average Catholics.

To be polite, the OP needs to stretch herself and design a decent survey, one that will yield valid results and statistics.
The op is really not putting the effort in by attempting to look at Catholic attitudes using a forum randomly.

The op has not allowed for cultural differences, regional differences, the practice of Catholicism differences. Any attempt by the OP at defining comments here as data will lead them into hot water over the results of their research, it won’t be valid and will be easily nullified.

but if the instructor accepts an internet forum as an appropriate source, there it is!

I really doubt any instructor would accept an internet forum as an appropriate source at random. Do you? At the college level. For a research project.

The OP is already running bias in her opening post.

I’ve had run-ins with bad priests, catholic bigots, and profoundly ignorant faith educators. I’ve been reading some of the threads on this website and I’ve been struck by the barely concealed hatred and blatant arrogance of some commenters on topics like non-catholic religions and LGBT people. I planned to use these comments as evidence in my paper, but I’d like to see how people respond to this first.

and

Unless one subscribes to archaic ideas about men being spiritually superior and fundamentally different from women, the catholic church has no place for them.
In short, there is a catholic man and a catholic woman, but no catholic human.

The OP needs to consult with her college instructor about this. And perhaps invest a little statistical maturity into the project.

 

[BartholomewB]

In short, there is a catholic man and a catholic woman, but no catholic human.

Every human is either a man or a woman, with the exception of a very small number of genuinely intersex individuals.

I planned to use these comments as evidence in my paper, but I’d like to see how people respond to this first.

Please feel free to quote me in your paper, if you wish to.

 

[Lee1]

Mary, Reading mVitus’ comments caused me to wonder that if you want a more balanced idea of what people here think you might present it in a poll format. If you try to ensure that the options to vote for adequately cover the question fairly then taken that it’s very anonymous you may find it gives clearer results worthy of use.

It seems that you have specific questions to ask, this method may be quicker and give you clearer results.

 

[Mary21]

Hello again!
I’d just like to respond to a few issues I’ve seen that were either repeated or that stood out to me especially.
First, to the concerns of bias: yes, I am. I think I’ve been rather transparent on the issue. I plan to address that in my paper as well. However, I do not believe the experiences that I’ve had growing up in the Catholic church are isolated incidents that might be reduced to “a few bad apples.” I’ve talked to a lot of people and read a lot of stories. While for some the Catholic church provides a safe haven and a life-enriching experience, for others, it can be utterly crushing.
Second: by the phrase “engage on a human level” I mean take a non-gendered role in the Catholic church. Nuns, brothers, and priests as well as couples married in the church assume labels and duties based on their gender. As these roles come with varying degrees of power and influence, it’s clear that they represent an assumption of spiritual difference. I saw that someone mentioned intersex individuals as being a small percentage of the world population. That is true. But if we are all created in God’s image then it doesn’t follow that some people are born with a condition that excludes their full participation in the sacraments (marriage and ordination, for example).
Third, on LGBT issues: I am not saying that all Catholics are bigoted against the LGBT community. Yet the Cathecism is clear that gay and transgender people are not welcome to live full lives with the approval of the church. Regardless of how organizations like Lifeteen spin it, that is discrimination and a form of bigotry. One might argue that one can live a “full life” without a romantic partner or intimate relations. I won’t grace that argument with a rebuttal. In the archdiocese where I grew up, the archbishop would fire teachers in the school system if they were discovered to be gay, even if that discovery came in the form of a mother’s obituary. The Catholic church has prompted parents to disown their children, the bullying of gay students in school, and even hate crimes against LGBT individuals. While these events may not have been church sanctioned, they still arose from Catholic culture. It is not unreasonable to hold the church accountable for this. If it is part of the doctrine, it is fair to assign it to believers.
Fourth: I am am familiar with the teachings of the bible and the Catechism. I have spoken extensively with a woman currently getting a master’s in Catholic theology. In addition, I have taken classes in Church history and Apologetics.

Thank you so much for your comments and they genuinely are helping me develop my project.

 

[Carmelite1983]

Yet the Cathecism is clear that gay and transgender people are not welcome to live full lives with the approval of the church.

Full lives? Sure they can!
Sacramentally married? As in married with the intent to procreate? Physically impossible.
Why does sex make your life “full”? What priorities are these?

 

[Gertabelle]

Third, on LGBT issues: I am not saying that all Catholics are bigoted against the LGBT community. Yet the Cathecism is clear that gay and transgender people are not welcome to live full lives with the approval of the church. Regardless of how organizations like Lifeteen spin it, that is discrimination and a form of bigotry. One might argue that one can live a “full life” without a romantic partner or intimate relations. I won’t grace that argument with a rebuttal. In the archdiocese where I grew up, the archbishop would fire teachers in the school system if they were discovered to be gay, even if that discovery came in the form of a mother’s obituary. The Catholic church has prompted parents to disown their children, the bullying of gay students in school, and even hate crimes against LGBT individuals. While these events may not have been church sanctioned, they still arose from Catholic culture. It is not unreasonable to hold the church accountable for this. If it is part of the doctrine, it is fair to assign it to believers.

There is a huge difference between people using their religion to justify hate crimes, and the religion actually sanctioning those crimes.

As a hardcore Catholic woman, I can assure you that if my son ever told me he was gay, not only would I not disown him, I would surround him with acceptance, love, and protection. And I’ve told him this in no uncertain terms.

We’ve also talked about how it is our role to love and support the people around us, serving them as if serving Christ Himself. We are NOT to judge! We are to help lighten people’s loads, not add to them with our judgments. How this all works out with Church teaching is an uncomfortable and difficult struggle for us, but it is a struggle that is worth engaging.

I agree with Church teaching, but that is a choice I make for my life, not for everyone else’s. I did not cut off relationships with my brother, my coworkers, my fellow Catholics in the pews who remarried outside the Church without an annulment, or who engaged in adultery, or who are living in relationships with someone of the same sex.

In our family, our question is always, “How can I show the love of God for this person?”

As a person who hates the Church, I doubt you’ll believe me, but some of my most staunchly Catholic friends are of the same mindset. Those homeschooling moms, and daily mass-attending dads – I have seen them put the love of their neighbor into action, regardless of whether that person is living by the teachings of the Catholic Church or not.

Honestly, your hatred of the Church leads you to see only the answers you expect to see and disregard all else. Is there hatred in the hearts of some Catholics? Of course there is. But there is also extraordinary love and service and acceptance. Try looking for that once in a while, and you may just find it.

 

[Carmelite1983]

We’re not all the “Westboro Baptist Church” you know.
It seems like you just came on this forum to bully people.

You’re not calmly talking about complaints,
you’re not asking us questions about our beliefs and standards,
You’re not asking for clarification,
and you’re not even responding to those willing to legitimately help with your research.

It seems the only reason you came here is to say, “I’m gonna write a paper about how horrible you are! Neener neener ha ha ha!”

In reality, every single grievance you’ve listed about the Church (which, by the way, are things found in every other denomination and in the public sector) are things that every one of us here would never condone or defend.

It’d be nice to see you simply ask, “hey forum, what’s your stance on gay marriage?” Or “can someone tell me why women aren’t priests?” Or “how do you all feel the Church operates on a level of basic human needs?”
Instead you come in guns blazing.

You admitted yourself that you are biased. Fair enough.
Obviously most of us here will be biased as well, which is why you’re here. It seems you come here hoping to get a visceral reaction from us so you could cultivate an attention grabbing headline for your research.
Some would argue that research, by definition, should be unbiased or at least open to hearing the other side out.

I wish you luck with your research and hope you’re open to hearing us out from time to time. You might be surprised.

 

[jeeter]

Third, on LGBT issues: I am not saying that all Catholics are bigoted against the LGBT community. Yet the Cathecism is clear that gay and transgender people are not welcome to live full lives with the approval of the church. Regardless of how organizations like Lifeteen spin it, that is discrimination and a form of bigotry. One might argue that one can live a “full life” without a romantic partner or intimate relations. I won’t grace that argument with a rebuttal. In the archdiocese where I grew up, the archbishop would fire teachers in the school system if they were discovered to be gay, even if that discovery came in the form of a mother’s obituary. The Catholic church has prompted parents to disown their children, the bullying of gay students in school, and even hate crimes against LGBT individuals. While these events may not have been church sanctioned, they still arose from Catholic culture. It is not unreasonable to hold the church accountable for this. If it is part of the doctrine, it is fair to assign it to believers.

My thoughts:

Were teachers discovered to be gay and trying to live in accordance with Church teachings? Or were they openly flaunting their lifestyle? There was recently a story of a lady who chose to get pregnant by her boyfriend out of wedlock, and was dismissed from her job at a Catholic school. Heterosexual discrimination? Or the right of an employer to expect employees to live up to a code?

You say the Catholic Church has prompted people to bully/mistreat gay people, yet the Catechism says something entirely different. If it is not part of the doctrine, it is not fair to assign it to believers.

 

[Mary21]

Continuing the discussion from Gender and Catholicism:

I’m sorry I’ve come across that way. My intention was to begin a conversation. Obviously, it’s a struggle for me to remain receptive to opinions I see as fallacious. I’m not trying to bully anyone and I’m not looking for a shocking headline. What makes it difficult for me to engage objectively is that no matter how egregiously people act in the name of the church, it never seems to be the church’s responsibility to reckon with. It’s always just “the bad ones” or outweighed by the good the church does elsewhere. The church should not be compared to the lowest common denominator in other denominations or the public sector.

 

[Mary21]

One teacher was listed with a partner in her mother’s obituary then fired the next day.

 

[Mary21]

If procreation is the only purpose of marriage, there seems little needs for a spiritual commitment.
If a woman or man knows they are infertile should they be unable to marry in the church?
Humans are sexual beings, while sex is not required for a full life, to deny it to a loving couple is cruel and unnecessary and forbids them from making a commitment to each other on that level.

 

[jeeter]

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, did this person sign a contract agreeing to support Catholic teachings?

 

[jeeter]

If procreation is the only purpose of marriage, there seems little needs for a spiritual commitment.
If a woman or man knows they are infertile should they be unable to marry in the church?
Humans are sexual beings, while sex is not required for a full life, to deny it to a loving couple is cruel and unnecessary and forbids them from making a commitment to each other on that level.

Yet heterosexual couples who were deemed “infertile” have conceived. Not one gay couple has ever done that. It’s about function and orientation.

 

[Carmelite1983]

Fair enough
I just don’t think it’s the Church’s responsibility to address the horrible things people do or say.
Church doctrine has always been to act in a loving and charitable way.
If some people are disowning their family (which is a horrible mortal sin) or harassing anyone for any reason, they are not in line with the teachings.

And yeah, I believe it is a “few bad apples”. Everyone I know would be horrified to hear of some of the things that are said or done.
The news definitely tends to sensationalize a lot of the abuses in the Church.
To be clear, those who have abused anyone must be rooted out immediately and removed and should pay for their damages.
But the news hardly ever reports on abuses in the secular or public sectors, which statistically happen at least as much in the Catholic Church.

For example, the baseball coach who sexually assaulted a young girl and left her pants ripped and bloody three blocks down from my house never made the news and is widely unknown of in our area.
But the priest who gave another kid a playful pat on the butt with a rolled up paper as he was running to the playground made statewide news. Both are inappropriate, but it seems like the media loves reporting on the Church in a disproportionate way.

Maybe the Church should hold itself to a higher standard than other religions (there’s abuse in all of them, even within the athiest Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster), but yes, a few bad apples in a religion of over 1.6 billion followers will definitely make the rest look bad.

Just want to explain; denying sacramental marriage to two men or two women is not an unfair practice.
The church believes that marriage includes an openness to procreation, which is impossible is same sex unions.
It’s like asking my mechanic to call my car an airplane. It’s not offensive that he calls is a car, it’s just an impossibility to label it anything else.

This might be oversimplified, but think like this;
a man can’t marry another man sacramentally. But he can marry a women. All men are held to this. I am straight, but I can’t marry a man. Neither can a person with same sex attractions. I actually see some fairness here. All men are held to the same standard regardless of their attractions.

If it wasn’t a problem, I’d honestly consider marrying my buddy from college. We’re both straight, but I love him, we get along well, we both work, we’re comfortable dressing and farting around each other, and he makes really good dinners. We never fight and always support each other.
Not trying to be silly, but I’m not allowed to marry him sacramentally regardless of my attractions (though we could go to the courthouse and make this thing legit legally…)
So there’s where I see fairness instead of discrimination. We’re all held to the same standard.

I know there’s a lot of hurt and it feels like people get left out. I just hope your report or paper your writing will at least mention that the ideology of some does not reflect the Doctrinal Teachings of the whole Church.

 

[guanophore]

Which in no way means we agree to be research subjects.

Oh I agree! But it does mean that whatever was posted, if approved as a data source by the instructor, can be used. It is fair game, in other words.

That simply means this post , unless I delete it within a given time, will be readable until this forum ceases to exist .

Readable, copyable, archiveable, and made the subject of social media data used in research.
This is the very thing that got Google and Facebook on the radar lately. They were data mining posts and choosing certain ads based on user language.

however you will find yourself in opposition from the academic world over issues like this.

Haven’t yet!

To be polite, the OP needs to stretch herself and design a decent survey, one that will yield valid results and statistics.

Perhaps, depends upon the assignment, but even a properly designed survey would not need to go thru a human subjects review committee - especially if it anonymous.

The op is really not putting the effort in by attempting to look at Catholic attitudes using a forum randomly.

What if the purpose is to look at random forum posts on a Catholic site?

The op has not allowed for cultural differences, regional differences, the practice of Catholicism differences.

It is certainly a limited sample size and the parameters of the data collection are limited. That being said, there are a LOT of attitudes contained in the posts on this forum!

Any attempt by the OP at defining comments here as data will lead them into hot water over the results of their research, it won’t be valid and will be easily nullified.

Perhaps, in a higher level empirical study, but I don 't get the impression that is the nature of the project. The posts here contain data that is available for examination. The quality of it may be questionable depending on a research design, but in this case, I don’t think there is one! The methods used to data mine Facebook and Google may be much more sophisticated, but they are very good at targeting ads to posters depending upon their post content, so it must be effective to some degree.

The OP is already running bias in her opening post.

Yes, I think there may be a serious case of confirmation bias present.