Gender Discrimination in Catholic School?

[mgmahoney2005]

I am curious as to how parents, school adminstrators, and students perceive different school uniform requirements based on gender.

For example, in my highschool boys wear a uniform that looks business casual (with a blazer for mass and other school occassions.)

Girls on the otherhand wear jumpers (uniform dresses like you normally would see in pre-k through 4th grade in elementary schools.)

My school prides itself on its tradition of this uniform, and does not allow girls the option of wearing pants even in the winter.

What’s worse is that at my age most of the girls wearing this uniform have developed hips, butts, and chests which cause the jumper to ride up dramatically when sitting or bending.

Most of the girls I know (myself included) feel self-conscious at our ages wearing a jumper which normally is worn in elementary school - especially when boys stare in class or when we are on our way to school or out after school.

Is ‘tradition’ a justifiable rationale to make girls wear uniforms based on their gender considering other issues that result wearing these types of uniforms?

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I think I recall a story where the girls of a particular school petitioned the administration to allow them to wear pants in cold weather. The administrators replied that they could do so, provided they wear a tie like the boys did. It seems this is still policy at that school

As for your question, you are attending their school on their terms, or not at all. You might do as the young women in the above story did, but otherwise you have no authority to force the school to change policy.

 

[nobeerinheaven]

I don’t this is a case of gender discrimination, just gender differences. They aren’t applying an unfair or unjust standard against women, preferring the men. They are just maintaining a traditional attire (more than likely picked by women and men when it was initially introduced). To make a case of discrimination, you’d have to show that they are (say) making it difficult to excel academically based on your gender. I presume they aren’t doing that.

Plus, come on, who doesn’t like the Catholic school girl jumper?

 

[3GirlsRUs]

I like the jumper. At my daughter’s school, it becomes a skirt for girls grades 5-8. and the girls are allowed to wear shorts underneath. Also, the girls are allowed to wear the blue pants if they want. But then the boys uniform is blue pants and white oxford shirt or polo anyway. Girls choice of jumper/skirt or the blue pants with the white blouse.

Maybe you could just petition the school to modify the dress code that the girls could wear whatever color pants are acceptable for the boys with their blouses?

 

[MsAnnie]

I went to a Catholic grade school in Minnesota in the 1980s. For recess we were allowed to wear jeans or other pants under our uniforms, but only during the winter. But then, I don’t recall ever being kept in for recess because of the cold. And it definitely gets cold there!

In terms of skirt versus jumper, we switched to skirts in grades 7-8, but that was a bit late for me in terms of development. The jumpers are fine for smaller kids, they just don’t fit well for older girls. So I can definitely sympathize in that regard.

I don’t think that I would call it discrimination and I agree that by attending the school you are agreeing to adhere to their rules. However, I don’t think there could be any harm in approaching the administration with a request to change uniform policy. And based on my experience, I hope you’re at least able to change from the jumper to a skirt.

 

[Arlene]

At my daughters’ school it is jumpers for k-4 and skirts from 5-8. I can see where the jumpers might be a little difficult for girls once they get a little busty.

I wonder if you were to go to the school and present the alternative of wearing the same fabric but in a skirt rather than jumper.

All our girls wear shorts under their uniforms, and in the winter a lot of them wear leggings. The only time I heard anybody get in trouble was when the leggings became more like sweats or regular pants. But since tights are allowed, it could be argued that leggings are just like footless tights, as long as they are a solid coordinating color and not draw attention to them.

 

[bunnynessuk]

I have always found it ridiculous that schools( (not just catholic) here in the UK most (almost all) have a uniform ) insist on having uniforms which (mainly) for teens are so consticting I was a ‘well-developed’ teen (from about 11 I was a C-cup!) and I had to wear jumpers with a V-neck which did nothing but enhance the cleavage and it just led to me geting unnecessary attention particularly with the pencil skirt I was known aged 11 as t**s on a stick and that is a harsh label for a young girl I was developing and I was unable to wear trousers or tights we had to wear white knee highs with a purple skirt and jumper with an open neck shirt what i would have given for the boys uniform!!!

I think in this day and age girls should expect to be allowed to wear trousers and that this should be enforced in all schools if not for sexual discrimination reasons then for modesty some school skirts are obscenely short and they just lead to unneseccary attention levied on girls at a young age - i remember my skirt was 1inc above the knee but still i got attention.

 

[mgmahoney2005]

I think in this day and age girls should expect to be allowed to wear trousers and that this should be enforced in all schools if not for sexual discrimination reasons then for modesty some school skirts are obscenely short and they just lead to unneseccary attention levied on girls at a young age - i remember my skirt was 1inc above the knee but still i got attention.

Just to be clear, I appreciate people’s advice such as approach the admininistration and suggest changes, etc., but I am not even attempting that at this point, because it’s been done in prior years without any change. (I’m not knocking the school because i like alot about my school.)

I was just wondering people’s opinions concerning the rationale of tradition in keeping the same uniform even though societal norms have changed over time.

For example, while jumpers may look cute on younger girls, wearing them as a matured 17 or 18 yearold in high school can create perception problems with guys. (nobeerinheaven summed it up by saying - “come on, who doesn’t like the Catholic school girl jumper?”

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

The uniform company that supplies my daughters’ uniforms also sells doll uniforms, for the bigger “American Girl” dolls as well as Barbie. One can purchase jumpers or skirts and blouses for both style dolls (at almost the same price as the real girls’ uniforms, but that’s another matter). In the front of the store, on display, is an 18-inch doll and a Barbie, both wearing jumpers.

Let me tell you, that jumper tames Barbie’s figure big time!!! I thought the store had put a Barbie head and the arms and legs on another doll torso, but no.

Do I think it’s silly in this day and age to have young women wearing jumpers without darts and tucking to accomodate the requisite changes in their bodies? Sure! Do the young women in such schools feel a bit lame and even babyish when compared to young women at other schools who wear skirts and trousers with sweaters or blazers? Probably. If I were a parent at such a school, would I side with a campaign to give these young women a more updated look? Most likely, if it was modest.

However, I bet you can’t hike up the hem on a jumper by rolling the waistband, which I would bet is the real reason for this “tradition”.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I think that’s what the problem is.
Young ladies are going to have to buy the jumper several sizes up and pay for alterations for the jumper to proper.

As for the rationale, I agree with the rolling, but if the skirt portion is hiking up, that is a moot point.

Have the girls created a video with a day-to-day perspective of the jumper? It might surprise the admin to see what it’s like to wear this every day.
My school had a horrible problem with the freshmen girls severely altering their skirts, and then pressing themselves against the upper level railings to expose their thongs. Once the upper classmen girls got together and filmed this craziness (which never seemed to happen when a teacher/admin was around), we switched to walking shorts. If you show the admin what you ladies deal with, then things may change.

Otherwise, get the jumper as big as you can and then alter it appropriately. A good seamstress with listen to your needs and altar in such a way that the jumper can be let out later with minimal problems. I hope that makes sense?

 

[THutch04]

I’m sure the school uses the jumpers for modesty reasons, although having it ride up really high doesn’t help in that regard. But the administration might not be aware of that problem.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

…Have the girls created a video with a day-to-day perspective of the jumper? It might surprise the admin to see what it’s like to wear this every day.
My school had a horrible problem with the freshmen girls severely altering their skirts, and then pressing themselves against the upper level railings to expose their thongs. Once the upper classmen girls got together and filmed this craziness (which never seemed to happen when a teacher/admin was around), we switched to walking shorts. If you show the admin what you ladies deal with, then things may change.

Otherwise, get the jumper as big as you can and then alter it appropriately. A good seamstress with listen to your needs and altar in such a way that the jumper can be let out later with minimal problems. I hope that makes sense?

The videotaping is SUCH a good idea!!!

A skort is also a good option when making suggestions, one with a full front and kick pleats, instead of a kilt flap.

 

[SeekerJen]

Oh gosh, I am so grateful now to the Catholic 1-8 school I attended. Girls wore jumpers up through 5th grade, then switched to skirts in the same plaid with navy button-front vests over oxford shirts. For those of us who were on the busty side, those vests were lifesavers. They weren’t snug at all and covered everything. I remember begging to be sent home one morning when I had forgotten mine, and the only substitute available in the school office was a snug pullover sweater vest. The high school girls dressed similarly to the middle school girls and always looked modest and professional.

OP: I doubt the administration has even considered that the uniform differences are making the girls uncomfortable. I also think the videotape idea is great to show the impracticality of the girls’ uniform. Perhaps a group of you could draw up a rational proposal and ask to meet with the school officials, at which time you could present your proposal and show the video. I wonder if compiling a list of anonymous student comments on the uniforms would also help.

I don’t think you’re asking anything unreasonable. The uniforms don’t fit an adult woman properly, thus making the girls uncomfortable, which makes the boys stare, making the girls more uncomfortable and leading many of the boys to lust. This is not promoting a good learning environment nor is it helpful in formation as good Catholic adults. Present it in that manner and you might get some leeway. I can’t see how they could argue too much, especially if you offer to wear skirts in the same plaid as the jumpers (tradition and all that).

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I can appreciate your distaste for the difference between the boys’ “business casual” look, and the “little schoolgirl” look. I’m concerned about the modesty issue. Unless these jumpers are quite long (and the ones I’ve always seen are not), I wouldn’t be comfortable having my daughters wearing them all the time. It’s not that I mind tradition, but I think that this “traditional” mindset didn’t always reccognize the modesty issue created with girls wearing short skirts. And yes, I think there could be a low level of sexism, in that the institution at hand is unconcerned that there is such a disparity between the boys and the girls, or that girls deserve to be able to cover their legs or busts a little more appropriately. Or that we’re training boys to look professional, and girls to look like… well… no offense to people who wear jumpers, but…we know the stereotype. I don’t mean the people are intentionally sexist, but it is one of the pitfalls of some of our older traditions. I’d be ok with girls wearing pants, but I think a great uniform would be a long, ankle length skirt, and a blouse. It’s still traditional and feminine, but not babyish (or sexy, depending on your figure).

 

[mgmahoney2005]

I don’t this is a case of gender discrimination, just gender differences. They aren’t applying an unfair or unjust standard against women, preferring the men.

I think there’s a preference toward the guys in that their uniforms are adult business casual looking while the girls jumpers are babyish looking and impractical.

For example women have made huge gains in society in the past 50 years, however, the girls at school cannot wear pants. Does ‘tradition’ include a level of sexism in this policy? I am not knocking my school or their policy of having uniforms; I am wondering the thinking behind it.

Another example would be our seasonal options. In general girls wear nylon knee socks, but in the winter we are allowed to wear cable knee highs. I don’t know about others, but i don’t feel much of a difference in winter when wearing the cables. Your knees are still bare, and your thighs are too when sitting.

The preference is that the guys seem much more comfortable, and are dressed more in line with their age and the seasonal weather conditions than the girls.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I don’t this is a case of gender discrimination, just gender differences…

Great comment.

I know a Catholic school has the same polo shirt and pants uniform for both boys and girls. The boys look fine dressed similar to men’s business casual; the girls look like boys.

While some classic pieces stay in style longer, women’s fashions trends change seasonally. No uniform code could keep up with women’s fashions–and it shouldn’t try. Girls and women’s fashions change much quicker and offer lots more variety than men’s and boy’s fashions. That’s not the fault of men or school administrations.

I wore a plaid uniform for many years. By the time I was a junior and senior in high school, I could look like I was about 21-23, but not when dressed in my school uniform. Wearing a uniform helps high school girls dress appropriate to their state in life. Learning to dress appropriately for one’s age and state in life is an important key to women’s fashion.

While women’s fashions will probably continue to change annually, the basic fashion rules still exist to wear clothing that is appropriate for who you are, what you are doing and where you are going.

 

[thann]

In my opinion a jumper is not appropriate for a female who has developed – it is awkward looking and uncomfortable.

I suggest writing a petition to change the girls’ uniform from a jumper to a pleated skirt or even a “skort” (knee-length shorts that resemble a skirt), with coordinating blazer or sweater to be worn over a modest blouse.

You could also petition to wear pants, however, some very conservative groups believe that pants on females are inappropriate.

In elementary school, as someone else mentioned, we wore jumpers until 5th grade, then we wore skirts of the same fabric. In high school we had skirts and blazers for freshman and sophomore year, and then switched to skorts and long vests. I think that same (all girls) school has also added pants as a choice.

'thann

 

[daughterofmary]

When I attended an all girls school we had light pastel colored jumpers for grades 9-10. They were pink, yellow, and blue. We looked like easter eggs. They were the exact same jumpers that the younger girls in K-8 were wearing. We all matched.

Despite the color… it was not so bad. They were actually comfortable and there was not a lot of immodesty to them. We wore them spring and fall. During the winter we wore the regular “catholic school girl uniform”. Wool skirts below the knee. And if you wanted you could wear tights. Perhaps instead of altering the entire uniform your staff will allow you to wear tights or some type of leggings? The best thing (like someone said earlier) is getting a uniform a couple sizes bigger and having it altered. Our jumpers were not short at all. Even when you set down your knees still did not know. If your having a problem with length and bending over and stuff perhaps just getting a bigger size and bringing it in on the top will really help. Good luck!

 

[LittleRose]

I think there’s a preference toward the guys in that their uniforms are adult business casual looking while the girls jumpers are babyish looking and impractical.

For example women have made huge gains in society in the past 50 years, however, the girls at school cannot wear pants. Does ‘tradition’ include a level of sexism in this policy? I am not knocking my school or their policy of having uniforms; I am wondering the thinking behind it.

This is just my two cents:

Modesty is definitely an issue here, on both sides of this issue. For some who are very very traditional when it comes to modesty in dress, pants on a girl are considered immodest.

But, then again, so are short skirts that ride up at inconvenient times. This can indeed interfere with the environment of the classroom, making girls uncomfortable, and giving boys distractions of their own. Having taught in schools with everything from uniforms to practically no dress code at all, I can tell you that immodest dress does indeed have a detrimental effect on student behavior and learning opportunities.

And I can understand not wanting to look like a little kid when one is so close to being a woman. Especially in the 21st century.

If the school is going to change its uniform, the best people to petition for such a change would be parents, since they’re the ones paying tuition. The key issues for them to cite with the school would probably be modesty and age-appropriateness. I think the pleated skirt and “skort” suggestions here are good ones, as long as the garment is long enough to allow a reasonable level of freedom of movement. You should be able to sit down at your desk without worrying about exposing too much.

 

[mesquite_magic]

I think there’s a preference toward the guys in that their uniforms are adult business casual looking while the girls jumpers are babyish looking and impractical.

For example women have made huge gains in society in the past 50 years, however, the girls at school cannot wear pants. Does ‘tradition’ include a level of sexism in this policy? I am not knocking my school or their policy of having uniforms; I am wondering the thinking behind it.

Another example would be our seasonal options. In general girls wear nylon knee socks, but in the winter we are allowed to wear cable knee highs. I don’t know about others, but i don’t feel much of a difference in winter when wearing the cables. Your knees are still bare, and your thighs are too when sitting.

The preference is that the guys seem much more comfortable, and are dressed more in line with their age and the seasonal weather conditions than the girls.

I don’t have anything insiteful to say.I just want to say that I’m very impressed with your writting. You seem very mature for your age.

Kim