Gender Mainstreaming

  • Thread starter Thread starter Magickman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m not saying women who intend to be stay at home moms shouldn’t learn beyond basics, but the poster I responded to said she went to a top school. Do I think someone who intends to be a stay at home mom deserves a spot in a very selective school, with opportunities for people who want to develop their careers? No, I don’t. And anyone who would openly say on an application to say Harvard that they intend to be a stay at home mom would very likely never be accepted. There is a certain amount of deception that would have to go on an application, with people make it seem as though they are a good candidate for a spot and that they have great professional dreams and intend to try to achieve great things in their professional life.

I don’t know if she was talking about undergrad or grad, but if someone takes one of the few spots in selective grad school knowing all the while that she plans to be a stay at home mom…
OK, then, I guess by that reasoning it would be “wrong” for a Harvard-educated lawyer to eschew a high-paying job to volunteer with the Peace Corp? “Wasting” that education?

And who says that the woman in question doesn’t intend to go back to her career when her kids are grown? Or that she will lend her intellect and education to a volunteer organization?

Top-notch universities are not supposed to be “trade schools” for those who will go out to the workforce and utilize their knowledge in a specific forum. Education is NEVER wasted, regardless of what the student winds up doing in life.
 
My uterus and mammary glands make me significantly different from my husband during pregnancy (which has no bearing on my profession, I enjoy working while pregnant) and the first year or so of each child’s life (during which time my country mandates I be allowed maternity leave, fully paid by the gov’t). My husband is a SAHD and I WOH and I have not had to pump or use formula once during the 2.5 years that my daughter nursed, and I plan to do the same with all subsequent children.

To me personally, the idea that the undeniable differences between men and women should mean that there have to be strict and eternal gender roles and functions is insanely cruel. E.g. women breastfeed, *ergo *no mother should be employed outside of the house until her children are grown (surely no woman breastfeeds her 17-year-old offspring on demand, every 2 hours or so?)

BTW, we had both obligatory woodwork/technical sciences and home ec for both girls and boys, and I hated both. There were kids who loved both, regardless of sex. I’m just clumsy and impractical 🤷
 
Back towards the main topic more . . . I think the OP does have a point, but we are missing one important thing: Context.

The statement given by the OP is relatively innocent and laudable in the context of, say, educational opportunity. The same statement takes on a more sinister tone when in the context of, say, reproductive health.

The article itself on Wikipedia seems to talk more about not forcing stereotypes onto people, which I find acceptable, than about trying to eliminate reproductive differences (BC and abortions). I know my DH would appreciate a “give up your seats for parents carrying young children” campaign on public transportation, as a man who rather frequently headed out on public transportation with two toddlers. While boys and girls do tend to play with different toys, exagerating the natural tendency by turning it into a false dichotomy (boys play with cars, girls play with dolls) isn’t appropriate - some children will naturally play more with the other toys, and that is fine. There is mention of lighting streets at night - a policy geared towards giving women equal opportunity to walk and exercise at night, since women have reason to be more concerned about night-time safety than men do.

Where I see the risk is when we start trying to eliminate the inconveniences of pregnancy and birth by making it easy for women to avoid them through BC and abortion at any cost. As a society, we seem to want to avoid the reality that women are inconvenienced by childbearing (pregnancy, birth, and nursing) for several years per child, and rather than adapt society to support that reality, we’re trying to force reality to fit a warped image of society where women don’t have those inconveniences.

The other place where gender mainstreaming is an issue is when negative “male” behaviors are falsely seen as a healthy norm and better than “female” behaviors. I’m thinking specifically of “promiscuity” and “chastity”. Society has long found male promiscuity more acceptable than female promiscuity, and female chastity more valuable than male. There is nothing wrong with destroying this unfair stereotype, but society took the wrong path; instead of normalizing the healthy “female” behavior (chastity) for both genders and valuing male chastity, we normalized the unhealthy “male” behavior (promiscuity) for both genders. I used quotations because those behaviors were never actually male or female - God made both sexes for chastity.

If we as a society want women to be more active in public life and the workplace, that’s fine. If we want fewer double-standards towads men and women, that is also fine. We just shouldn’t do it at the expense of uniquely feminine responsibilities, nor should we assume the stereotypical “male” behavior is always best.

Satan loves to attack good things, both by twisting something until people think black is white, and by trying to convince us to throw the baby out with the bathwater if we try to get rid of the twisted perceptions we now have. Equal opportunity and a stronger female public presence are good things, but trying to eliminate the periods of vulnerability that women experience due to childbirth by removing childbirth, or evening the sexual stereotypes by making women permiscuous, is a twisting of what is good.
 
Great points, LongingForLight. We all have our crosses to bear, but virtue is gender-neutral!
 
I believe a woman should decide for herself whether or not she wants to be a stay-at-home mom and if she’s educated, that’s good. It means A) if there were any circumstances that made her unable to stay at home, she’d be a heck of a lot more employable than if she didn’t have her degree and B)it means her kids would more likely value education, for education’s sake. My dad said, “College is a gift to yourself. Even if you stay at home with kids, please get your education. I didn’t have that chance and I want you to have it.”

I study politics. If I decided to be a stay-at-home mom, that education would be useful to me, if only so I’d have more time to keep abreast of issues and encourage other women and people in my community to stay active. I could visit my Congressmen or local politicians, organize campaigns (while kids were in school, or heck, just bring them with me!) and educate people about issues. That’s using my education, even if I’m not getting paid.

Also, there are women who stay at home till Little Tyke goes to school. It’s not always set in stone.

Ladies, whatever you decide, just finish school, maintain a good work history and always stay connected. You may change your mind and if there was a situation where you had to work, you want to have a backup.
 
OK, then, I guess by that reasoning it would be “wrong” for a Harvard-educated lawyer to eschew a high-paying job to volunteer with the Peace Corp? “Wasting” that education?
If a person got a Harvard Law degree and never or almost never used it, yes I would say it would have been a waste and that the spot should have gone to someone else.

I’m not saying the only way to use a law degree is to be a lawyer, the person could become an academic, could write relevant books, could be a legal consultant, whatever. But yes, if someone gets a Harvard law degree and then spends the rest of his life building houses say, I would say it’s a complete waste and not fair to those who competed for that spot with him or to society as a whole which could have had another Harvard educated lawyer.

Where I live education, especially grad school is paid for by the school. So in that case, not only would the person had taken a spot from a more deserving candidate, but also would have taken subsidies/grants.

I would be for making people who do this sort of thing liable to pay back all the grants and subsidies, as well as pay someone else’s way through school to try to atone from taking that spot from someone who would have benefited society with her degree. This policy would also discourage women (and men) who don’t intend to use their education long term from applying for the spot to begin with.
 
Sometimes, people don’t plan like, “Gee, I’ll go to Harvard law and then build houses for the rest of my life!”

Honestly, I know a guy who started as a lawyer, ended up hating it, then became a minister. Yet his knowledge of the law allows him to work for social change and aid others in doing so.

Likewise, some women don’t plan on going to college to become moms. Sometimes, they plan to work…then they have a baby and everything changes.

Education is never wasted. Some of these lawyer moms could be the ones inspiring their kids, or offering pro-bono legal services while their kids are in school. A mom who’s a nurse can take care of her sick children.

Atone to society? For taking a spot? How about I go to school because I want to, I’m qualified, and I’m willing to pay?

Who are you to decide who’s more deserving? You can’t predict the rest of someone’s life. We all have plans that we try to follow through on and then life changes. But the knowledge and skill sets are not wasted. There is a way to use them even if it doesn’t fit into our little boxes.
 
Atone to society? For taking a spot? How about I go to school because I want to, I’m qualified, and I’m willing to pay?
Take medical school, there are a fixed number of spots and people need doctors. How would it be if every person who went to medical school suddenly decided to do something else? You’d get sick and you’d have to wait in line because of a shortage of medical professionals.

I do think that it would be immoral for a woman who intends to be a stay at home mom to go to medical school.

Take any grad school, grad students get financial support, they get their spots (of which there are few) because they’re thought to be promising future academics/professionals.

I think it’s very selfish to go to school because you feel like it when you know you are going to quit whatever you’re doing to be a stay at home mom. It’s not a problem if you’re going to a school with plenty of spots, but if you’re applying to something that has a very limited number of positions and is really geared toward future academics and professionals , well…
Who are you to decide who’s more deserving? You can’t predict the rest of someone’s life. We all have plans that we try to follow through on and then life changes. But the knowledge and skill sets are not wasted. There is a way to use them even if it doesn’t fit into our little boxes.
Admissions might try to assess the potential of a person, and whether the person is going to contribute to the field/society. People write personal statements, essays, to try to demonstrate that they are deserving of the spot. Try writing “I am going to be a stay at home mom” in any of those essays and see what happens.

My problem with this is that women who know they’re going to be stay at home moms, but don’t openly state it and write their admissions essays in such a way as would make it seem that they intend to work in their fields throughout their lives are being deceptive.
 
Sometimes, people don’t plan like, “Gee, I’ll go to Harvard law and then build houses for the rest of my life!”

Honestly, I know a guy who started as a lawyer, ended up hating it, then became a minister. Yet his knowledge of the law allows him to work for social change and aid others in doing so.

Likewise, some women don’t plan on going to college to become moms. Sometimes, they plan to work…then they have a baby and everything changes.

Education is never wasted. Some of these lawyer moms could be the ones inspiring their kids, or offering pro-bono legal services while their kids are in school. A mom who’s a nurse can take care of her sick children.

Atone to society? For taking a spot? How about I go to school because I want to, I’m qualified, and I’m willing to pay?

Who are you to decide who’s more deserving? You can’t predict the rest of someone’s life. We all have plans that we try to follow through on and then life changes. But the knowledge and skill sets are not wasted. There is a way to use them even if it doesn’t fit into our little boxes.
My argument for SAHMs and college is simple. Is it worth the cost? It seems like an awful lot of money. 50K over 4 years at a state university and around 100K for private. Someone has to pay for it and it is a very expensive investment. Do the benefits of a degree really outweigh the negatives? If you use it for a part time or full time job, I can see the benefits coming close to outweighing the negatives. However, if it is for a SAHM only I am not so sure you are even breaking even on the investment. A nursing degree for SAHM or a education can be a useful degree. Though for nursing, a 2 year degree does it for less money. Education is only useful if you teach part time or home school.

But a degree in most liberal arts, sciences and business is worthless if you want to be a SAHM and not worth 50K tuition, room and board. A degree is only worth the high investment costs if it is directly related to your future vocation. These days many people need to take out a lot of the college costs in loans. These loans need to be paid back and cannot be taken away in bankruptcy. It is not a good idea to start marriage off with a debt load that is not manageable. My point is though that college is not meant to be a MRS degree factory. It never was designed or intended for that. You can make the argument though that you need a backup in case the husband loses his job. However, a trade school, work experience, or 2 year degrees can accomplish that in far less time than a degree, which these days is useless without a MA degree. Most management positions these days are closed off unless you have an MA and even non management positions require graduate school so a basic undergrad degree in most cases is not worth the investment since there is not a lot you can do with an undergrad degree anyways.

I will give an example. There are many Catholic girls that go to Christendom College. They do not accept financial aid from the government and only have a limited number of degrees. The university openly boasts of the students that go to grad school at other schools. It costs 27K a year tuition, room and board. If you cannot pay out of pocket, you have to take a private loan or their own 10% interest loan. Is it really worth spending 108K over 4 years to be a SAHM? Ave Maria and Steubenville are both comparable in costs in Christendom. I would caution going to these places or colleges that are priced similarly if you have to take out loans since the debt load will be very high after college and delay marriage for years after or make it difficult to buy a house and start a family.

The best way for college to be worth the costs is to do it as cheaply as possible. If you have to take out more than 50K and you plan to be a SAHM than it may not be a wise investment. If the student has a way to pay it on their own like you do than my feelings are different since the investment payoffs are different compared to taking out loans. There is no long term financial harm if you do not have high debt or your parents did not sacrifice too much to pay for it. Its all a matter of cost v benefits. I cant say that a one size fits all policy is necessary here since it varies case by case.
 
My argument for SAHMs and college is simple. Is it worth the cost? It seems like an awful lot of money. 50K over 4 years at a state university and around 100K for private. Someone has to pay for it and it is a very expensive investment. Do the benefits of a degree really outweigh the negatives? If you use it for a part time or full time job, I can see the benefits coming close to outweighing the negatives. However, if it is for a SAHM only I am not so sure you are even breaking even on the investment. A nursing degree for SAHM or a education can be a useful degree. Though for nursing, a 2 year degree does it for less money. Education is only useful if you teach part time or home school.

But a degree in most liberal arts, sciences and business is worthless if you want to be a SAHM and not worth 50K tuition, room and board. A degree is only worth the high investment costs if it is directly related to your future vocation. These days many people need to take out a lot of the college costs in loans. These loans need to be paid back and cannot be taken away in bankruptcy. It is not a good idea to start marriage off with a debt load that is not manageable. My point is though that college is not meant to be a MRS degree factory. It never was designed or intended for that. You can make the argument though that you need a backup in case the husband loses his job. However, a trade school, work experience, or 2 year degrees can accomplish that in far less time than a degree, which these days is useless without a MA degree. Most management positions these days are closed off unless you have an MA and even non management positions require graduate school so a basic undergrad degree in most cases is not worth the investment since there is not a lot you can do with an undergrad degree anyways.

I will give an example. There are many Catholic girls that go to Christendom College. They do not accept financial aid from the government and only have a limited number of degrees. The university openly boasts of the students that go to grad school at other schools. It costs 27K a year tuition, room and board. If you cannot pay out of pocket, you have to take a private loan or their own 10% interest loan. Is it really worth spending 108K over 4 years to be a SAHM? Ave Maria and Steubenville are both comparable in costs in Christendom. I would caution going to these places or colleges that are priced similarly if you have to take out loans since the debt load will be very high after college and delay marriage for years after or make it difficult to buy a house and start a family.

The best way for college to be worth the costs is to do it as cheaply as possible. If you have to take out more than 50K and you plan to be a SAHM than it may not be a wise investment. If the student has a way to pay it on their own like you do than my feelings are different since the investment payoffs are different compared to taking out loans. There is no long term financial harm if you do not have high debt or your parents did not sacrifice too much to pay for it. Its all a matter of cost v benefits. I cant say that a one size fits all policy is necessary here since it varies case by case.
Sadly, everything you say is true re: costs and benefits. 😦 I wish I could have put it so articulately. College is supposed to improve your future, and nowadays its chances of that are shaky. A B.A. is the new, albeit super expensive high school diploma. 🤷
You mentioned something I find particularly annoying: all the chicks who go to Catholic colleges and pay top dollar, simply because there is a good chance of obtaining their MRS. The irony is that they totally shoot themselves in the foot. :banghead: (Don’t tell me “growing in faith” is the reason - have first-hand experiences - sorry).
However, as you said one size doesn’t fit all. If a girl really really wants to be a doctor or dentist or something - go for it. Just have your eyes wide open that loans don’t disappear once you get married.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for women looking out for themselves. But we need to rethink the old wisdom that just “a” college degree is where its at. Personally, I think trade school degrees are a good thing. 🤷 If you wanna go for a Masters or doctorate - more power to you.
Two more things b4 I have to run (not intending to attack anybody). People will say “but education is invaluable”. Arguably, many things are invaluable. Watching a sunset, walking on the beach with a loved one, seeing great works of famous art, giving back to the community…but are they worth paying through the nose for? Mortgaging 20 years of one’s life? In addition, people can get a great education at the local library. I have a sneaking suspicion that I would know a lot more at this point in my life if I hadn’t spent so much time studying in college. 😉
One more thing: education snobbery is ugly and it should go away. 😛
 
However, if other parents make the decision to seriously limit the number of children and choose to pump breast milk or rely on infant formulas, they might be able to make such a scenario work.
For many people, it’s not a choice. I needed to limit my family because we were hurting financially. When I sah, we almost didn’t make it. Then I went back to work and things were better. Now that my dh has lost his job, he is sah and we are again on the brink of losing everything… Many people aren’t afforded the luxury of sah.
But formula gets expensive fast, and child care for more than two children in the case of two-wage-earner households is usually cost-prohibitive. For families that do not limit the number of their children to one or two, they usually find that it makes more financial sense for the mother to stay home.
Sometimes you have to limit your family, if you can’t afford to properly feed, clothe and shelter them. That was our case, and many others’. The church finds this perfectly acceptable.
And it is wonderful for the babies to get to drink their mommy’s milk nice and warm from her soft breast instead of from a bottle, so whenever it is possible to give that to children, it is good for parents to make that happen.
It is also wonderful for children to have roofs over their heads. 😉 Sorry, I couldn’t resist. But really, in many cases, that is the choice. You are very lucky that you had that choice and were able to afford it. And the babies of wms do get to experience “drinking their mommy’s milk nice and ward from her soft breast instead of from a bottle” too…they just do it the other 72+ hours in the week that Mommy is home.
 
I don’t think there’s a problem getting that education in that case. Maybe, say, some practical interships that are strictly meant for providing personnel for some critical jobs (e.g. get employer-paid MBA and resign right away because a commitment hadn’t been signed so there’s no bar). Obviously, it would be bad to lie to get it anyway. However, education is not just commodity, it’s a matter of personal growth as well. It lifts a person up and a stay at home mother is also entitled to that growth. It’s not true she won’t use that degree, either, just maybe not in the direct work in the field kind of way. Think her social involvements, children, even her support of the husband, children and other family members, friends… other people.
 
Honestly though…Some women intend…but they can’t have children.

Some women intend…but their husband loses his job.

Some women intend…but their husband dies.

Some women intend…but their husband isn’t the man she thought he was and runs out/is abusive.

Some women intend…but they end up not marrying till late 30’s/early forties. What’s she to do in the mean time?

As for law or medical school, if a woman knows she’s going to stay at home, she doesn’t usually pick those. Friends of mine who want to be SAHM’s but are interested in health care chose nursing degrees, so that they can work nights and be with their kids during the day. Likewise, friends who want to stay at home with kids but want to do something law related will usually choose work as a paralegal.

Women absolutely should be educated beyond secondary school. It doesn’t have to be college, it could be a trade…but still. A) Education is a worthy cause, especially if you’re called to educate your children. B) If something happens to her husband or to the economy, she needs at least that piece of paper showing that she can learn things and finish something.

I agree with chev, who put it more succinctly than I ever could 🙂
 
Women absolutely should be educated beyond secondary school.
I agree with this as well, but I also don’t think they should choose to become stay at home moms unless the alternative is working as a cashier or something along those lines. ducks and covers
 
I agree with this as well, but I also don’t think they should choose to become stay at home moms unless the alternative is working as a cashier or something along those lines. ducks and covers
Yes we know -children aren’t very important in your opinion.
 
“Gender mainstreaming is the public policy concept of assessing the different implications for women and men of any planned policy action, including legislation and programs in all areas and levels.” (from Wikipedia)

This sounds quite innocent, but it is part of the feminist scheme to mandate elimination of all distinctions between men and women. This is done in the name of gender equality. The underlying values, though, are the dismantling of traditional roles for men and women, and the destruction of traditional family life.

Gender mainstreaming is favored by the United Nations, feminist organizations, and women’s rights groups. They wish to ban the “Patriarchal family model” and to remove gender roles from kindergardens and elementary schools.

The term, “Gender mainstreaming,” was new to me. Why haven’t we heard more about this scheme?
We might not have heard about this because in our areas of the world this is not an issue. Women can adhere to biblical schemes if they wish to, but they are free to choose.
In other countries it might be even legal for a husband to let his wife starve to death if she is not willing to please him sexually every time that he wants to (Afghanistan) or she might not be allowed to leave the house without a male relative (Iran) or she might be publicly beaten if she wears pants (Sudan).
It sure isn’t going to be a topic there in the near future…

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet
 
Flyingfish, you’re the one who says women should have a choice, why don’t people respect women?

I’d agree with you…

BUT…

You YOURSELF are NOT respecting an educated woman’s choice to stay at home with her children.

You think staying at home isn’t working? Or that she doesn’t use her brain?

She absolutely does. When she’s paying bills. When she’s helping her kids do their homework (or if she’s homeschooling them). Or if she chooses to volunteer or take a part time job (not always as a cashier, I know a mom who works part time at a political advocacy organization), she can use her skills. What if she’s on the PTA or something, or if she uses her spare time to campaign for better education?

You talk about choice but your arguments are just as intolerant as those who say ALL women should ONLY be SAHMs (or nuns). What would you say if a guy decided to stay home with his kids? Would he still be a “waste” or is it OK because guys don’t usually do it?

Geez, how about a woman chooses what’s right for her and her family? Same with a man?

Now, I know why people are afraid of “elitist liberal bigotry”. Flyingfish, while it may not be your intent, that’s how you’re coming across in a lot of your posts.
 
That’s a cheap shot, I might as well say women aren’t very important in your opinion.
Why would having a career make a woman more important? :confused: You just made my point -raising children is not important to you. Staying home and raising children is not a worthy endeavor for an “educated woman”, it is a menial task best suited for uneducated women who would otherwise be cashiers. Educated women should hire uneducated women to care for their children, while they have a career and earn money -which is more important than children.

Your own statements make your view of children clear.
If the science does say that human self awareness begins at 2-4, then I think that killing anyone before such time is not murder.

It might still be a crime, for instance depriving the parents of the child they have invested time and effort into, but I would not equate it with the killing of a conscious person but more with the killing of an animal.
I also don’t understand why some people think that a person’s life should be all about their children once they have them. 🤷

The goal of parents is to prepare their children to be successful adults, that’s all. It’s not to spend a lot of time with them, or to give up their own lives for them. It’s giving them a place to sleep, food to eat, making sure they’re healthy and educated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top