Gender pronouns in the workplace

[Rozellelily]

We will have to disagree then.
I don’t believe that 16 year olds,or sometimes even 20 year olds,have the brain development (and therefor capacity) to make such life long decisions as this.
That doesn’t in any way diminish the reality that there may be other things that are currently legal for young people to do but that perhaps shouldn’t be.
Eg:young people are allowed to drive legally but they also have a high statistics of fatal car crashes.

Sex is different,because all the law is stating is that they won’t be criminally punished for doing so at this age.
In no way is anyone else involved apart from the couple or is complicit.
No doctor is involved etc…
Laws are laws but that doesn’t always mean they ar necessary right.
Ie:a 16 year old may legally be allowed to have sex but that doesn’t necessarily mean she/he has the mental and emotional maturity/development to make such a decision the consequences (eg:raising a child if become pregnant).

 

[Alex337]

We will have to disagree then.
I don’t believe that 16 year olds,or sometimes even 20 year olds,have the brain development (and therefor capacity) to make such life long decisions as this.
That doesn’t in any way diminish the reality that there may be other things that are currently legal for young people to do but that perhaps shouldn’t be.
Eg:young people are allowed to drive legally but they also have a high statistics of fatal car crashes.

Sex is different,because all the law is stating is that they won’t be criminally punished for doing so at this age.
In no way is anyone else involved apart from the couple or is complicit.
No doctor is involved etc…
Laws are laws but that doesn’t always mean they ar necessary right.
Ie:a 16 year old may legally be allowed to have sex but that doesn’t necessarily mean she/he has the mental and emotional maturity/development to make such a decision the consequences (eg:raising a child if become pregnant).

Perhaps. But those same people are required to be approved by psychiatrists, often multiple, and endrocrinologists before they can do any of that. So it’s not just a 16 or 20 year old making a decision; it’s trained professionals ensuring they are ready to do so.

You mention that in sex no one else is involved and you’re right; there are even fewer fully fledged adults gatekeeping that life changing activity that can change the life and body of not only those involved but actually create another person.

 

[Rozellelily]

quote=“Alex337, post:482, topic:492495”]
Perhaps. But those same people are required to be approved by psychiatrists, often multiple, and endrocrinologists before they can do any of that. So it’s not just a 16 or 20 year old making a decision; it’s trained professionals ensuring they are ready to do so.
[/quote]

Which seems fine in theory,because it gives the illusion of being scientific,but in practice Psychiatrists are acting in opposition of Neuroscientific findings and are also being biased by the social construct/culture/liberal Australian society…
Also,from what I have seen,it seems that a lot of psychologists and psychiatrists who are working/“interested” in this area (at least in Australia)themselves have gender dysphoroa themselves so that in itself would give them biased views.

At What Age Is The Brain Fully Developed?

It is widely debated as to which age the brain is considered "fully mature" or developed. In the past, many experts believed that the brain may have been done d

mentalhealthdaily.com

 

[Alex337]

From what I’ve seen of neuroscientific findings there’s some support for gender dysphoria as being a potentially biological component; Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? - Scientific American

Psychiatrists take this into account and while the brain may not develop fully until around 23 - 24 we treat people as independent adults well before then. And I think we need to. We can’t infantalise people until their brain stops developing, it’s too long.

Every person has some bias. But by involving multiple professionals we help avoid rash decisions. I’ll admit I haven’t met a psychiatrist with gender dysphoria that I know of.

The effort the system goes to help avoid rash decisions is extreme.

The process to have something like “top surgery” (removal of breasts) takes around 6 months and that’s only after you have notes from your GP, psychiatrist and an endocrinologist for example. While I could have a breast reduction down to an AA cup, or a mastectomy without any of those notes and with a turn around of closer to 3 months from first consultation to surgery depending on the surgeons availability. And that’s for a fully fledged adult.

 

[Rozellelily]

The link is interesting,but like it suggested,studies are still in their infancy.
Even if hypothetically,there was a biological cause in some transgender people’s cases,I don’t think this necessarily equates to that it is just “nature”.
Ieerhaps their brains develop this way in the womb due to something that the mother has been exposed to,or due to exposure of certain hormone levels in the mother etc…

It needs to be honestly contemplated the reasons why there does appear to be more transgender teens today (in Australia) then in the past and also that in “liberal” countries (Aus,US,UK) it seems to be more prevalent than other countries and that’s after just taking stigma factors into consideration.

But by involving multiple professionals we help avoid rash decisions

Usually,but if those multiple professionals have all be “brainwashed”/influenced/cut from the same cloth,then not really as their bias will influence their opinion.
It would be interesting to see the statistics of how many patients had been given the “go ahead” by doctors for hormone therapy vs how many had been (consistently) denied.That way we would truly know if any bias exists in the medical profession.

Psychiatrists take this into account and while the brain may not develop fully until around 23 - 24 we treat people as independent adults well before then. And I think we need to. We can’t infantalise people until their brain stops developing, it’s too long

We need to treat people as according to their brain age/cognitive abilities/according to the latest science.
This is not infantilising people -it is being responsible.
Emotionally it may seem too long but a responsible society can’t be built off individuals emotions/wants.
When I was a late teenager I also was convinced that I was an adult and wanted to be treated as one (and did things that adults do) but that doesn’t mean it’s reality.
If they are impatient,it shows even more so that they are not full adults (mentality) and incapable of making such a lifelong decision as fully developed adult brains are associated with capacity for delayed gratification.

 

[Alex337]

The link is interesting,but like it suggested,studies are still in their infancy.
Even if hypothetically,there was a biological cause in some transgender people’s cases,I don’t think this necessarily equates to that it is just “nature”.
Ieerhaps their brains develop this way in the womb due to something that the mother has been exposed to,or due to exposure of certain hormone levels in the mother etc…

But those would be parts of nature. Some folks get some chemicals and hormones in the womb, some don’t. Trans* folk have been around all through history though, so I’d guess it’s not due to a recent change in anything; it’s just how some people are.

It needs to be honestly contemplated the reasons why there does appear to be more transgender teens today (in Australia) then in the past and also that in “liberal” countries (Aus,US,UK) it seems to be more prevalent than other countries and that’s after just taking stigma factors into consideration.

Part of it would be greater acceptance and understanding. There are people who come out today in their old age because they didn’t understand what it was before, some thought that it was some kind of perversion and hid it. Or didn’t feel safe to before now.

This WWII veteran came out at 90; https://people.com/bodies/90-year-old-world-war-ii-veteran-comes-out-as-transgender/ Why didn’t she come out sooner? So many reasons. Horribly one would be just how unsafe it is/was for trans* people. It wasn’t so long ago in the UK that homosexuality was illegal, let alone being trans*. And while we say Aus is a liberal country but most states still had “gay panic” defences as a legal institution until the mid 00’s and South Australia still has it (this would be where a person can claim “gay panic” as a legal excuse for beating or murdering someone upon finding out they’re gay or trans*; Gay panic defense - Wikipedia).

Some of it is also kids just experimenting with gender. Teenagers are trying to find themselves and gender is one part of that. Figuring out how one demonstrates their gender isn’t all that new, it just used to be kids finding their style.

Alex337:

But by involving multiple professionals we help avoid rash decisions

If those multiple professionals have all be “brainwashed”/influenced/cut from the same cloth,then not really as their bias will influence their opinion.
It would be interesting to see the statistics of how many patients had been given the “go ahead” by doctors for hormone therapy vs how many had been (consistently) denied.That way we would truly know if any bias exists in the medical profession.

I’d be interested to see it too. I’m not sure such stats are available, I suspect confidentiality would come up. But by involving multiple people the likelihood goes down.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

Psychiatrists take this into account and while the brain may not develop fully until around 23 - 24 we treat people as independent adults well before then. And I think we need to. We can’t infantalise people until their brain stops developing, it’s too long

We need to treat people as according to their brain age/cognitive abilities/according to the latest science.
This is not infantilising people -it is being responsible.
Emotionally it may seem too long but a responsible society can’t be built off individuals emotions/wants.
When I was a late teenager I also was convinced that I was an adult and wanted to be treated as one (and did things that adults do) but that doesn’t mean it’s reality.
If they are impatient,it shows even more so that they are not full adults (mentality) and incapable of making such a lifelong decision as developed adult brain safe associated with delayed gratification.

Part of growing up is being given more responsibility. I honestly don’t know how society would function if people in their early 20s were still treated as children. Would they be expected to work? To live at home? To abstain from sex? Teenagers are renown for being rebellious, I can’t imagine people in their early twenties accepting a return to such a lack of rights.

 

[Rozellelily]

Sorry,by “nature” I should clarify that I mean Gods will/design.
Even if something like exposure to bad chemicals or hormone levels in the womb did cause the brain to develop a certain way,this still suggests to me a disorder that needs to be attempted to fix (not give opposing sex hormones).
Whether through medicines that affect the brain,or through psychological means (in the future) but in reality will either of these even be explored or developed when so many of the psychologists and Psychiatrists in Australia are so brain washed to be pro hormone therapy/acceptance that that boy is a girl (or vice versa)?

If there was a greater balance of mentalities in the medical and scientific community,then this would greater serve people who feel they have gender dysphoria as it would drive greater research and greater treatment options.

I see the greater acceptance that you mentioned as being part of it,but not the full picture.
That would explain the “in the closet” sector of society and secret cross dressers that has always existed in every culture,but it doesn’t explain that there still seems to be a higher number in liberal countries like Aus after considering these factors.
Also why have kids gone from defining their style to defining their gender in countries like Aus more then when I was a teen?
Is it because they believe being girl means liking makeup,being a boy means liking cars and when they don’t fit,they think they must be the opposite?
There are definitely sociological factors.

 

[Alex337]

Sorry,by “nature” I should clarify that I mean Gods will/design.
Even if something like exposure to bad chemicals or hormone levels in the womb did cause the brain to develop a certain way,this still suggests to me a disorder that needs to be attempted to fix (not give opposing sex hormones).

It seems more viable to fix the body than the brain. And if a person’s brain reflects one gender I kinda think it more important than the body. After all the brain really defines who we are; I mean if I had to choose between suffering some malady that deformed my body or one that altered my brain I’d want my brain to remain the same.

It’s a hard thing to explain but I suppose if there is something in the brain that causes this then I would be more inclined to then believe that the body is indeed incorrect as the person believes and that we should fix it. I mean if one day a doctor told you that you’d been wrong about your gender your whole life, that you’d actually been imagining what your physical make up was; would you want to have a surgery to alter your brain to believe that? Or would you feel more comfortable having the physicality be made true?

If ther was a greater balance of mentalities in the medical and scientific community,then this would greater serve people who feel they have gender dysphoria as it would drive greater research and greater treatment options.

I’ll admit I honestly haven’t seen this bias. It may exist but I know my personal GP is rather ignorant on trans* issues as is my psychiatrist.

 

[Alex337]

I see the greater acceptance that you mentioned as being part of it,but not the full picture.
That would explain the “in the closet” sector of society and secret cross dressers that has always existed in every culture,but it doesn’t explain that there still seems to be a higher number in liberal countries like Aus after considering these factors.
Also why have kids gone from defining their style to defining their gender in countries like Aus more then when I was a teen?
Is it because they believe being girl means liking makeup,being a boy means liking cars and when they don’t fit,they think they must be the opposite?
There are definitely sociological factors.

I think it may well be the latter. When I was a teen I explored my style in terms of how girly or boyish I wanted to look. I had no interest in makeup and was often told this made me boyish. At the time that wasn’t a statement on my actual gender, it was just a statement on how I presented my gender. Now days people read more into it. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing, all the teens I’ve dealt with who have decided to play around with gender came to no harm and often felt a lot more empathy for the other sex.

I admit I’ve only taught in the UK and Aus, so I don’t know how prevalent this kind of thing may be outside of these countries. I know there are plenty of traditional groups that are trans* (check out the Third Gender throughout cultures and times; Third gender - Wikipedia), but I haven’t had the chance to look into current representations.

 

[OraLabora]

What I see is more like:

Rose Smith
Professor of Mathematics
Bigtime University
she/her/hers

I guess if you have a PhD and go by “Dr.” and have a gender ambiguous name like mine, it would be nice to have some way of distinguishing your gender. My first name is the masculine spelling (in French), but in English, it pronounces like the feminine spelling, so I have had unintended sex changes more than once from anglophones

Francophones however, “get it”, and I have no issues.

In Quebec, for “Dr.” we’ve solved the problem by adding an “e” for female doctors (“Dre.”). Not sure if France does the same thing.

Quite apart from the LGBQT movement, I would think that as our society becomes much more multi-ethnic, some kind of gender indicator would be helpful as the gender of many given names in other ethnicities is ambiguous. If you’re not an MD, DDS, DVM or PhD or some other kind of “Dr.”, I would think simply signing your name as Mr so-and-so, or Ms, Mrs or Miss such-and-such would solve e 99% of the problems. For those 1% identifying as “they”… I’ll leave it up to them to find their preferred solution.

 

[Alex337]

Definitely! Recently I’ve been dealing via email with some blood bank doctors and two of the main ones had names I didn’t know the gender off, when I phoned to speak to one I got their answering machine which had a female voice so I assumed it was them. I emailed them for ages assuming the wrong thing entirely until we finally spoke.

 

[Pup7]

FirstFiveEighth:

Not really. Some think that mutilating the body to conform to whatever sex the person believes they are will reduce the disphoria and make them feel better about themselves. They do not believe that the person is literally in the wrong body. Like the stork aciddently dropped the wrong brain in the wrong baby while making his runs one night.

You might equally say that a man suffering from schizophrenia doesn’t really have a mental problem, he is just missing his second body. It’s nonsense.

Schizophrenia is but multiple personalities, common error. But yes, dysphoria is a physical thing that can be alerted with surgery. It’s not mutilation.

Schizophrenia isn’t multiple personalities. Not by far.

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/schizophrenia/index.shtml

Schizophrenia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mrsdizzyd]

She was named after an important relative. A grandfather I believe. She was a truly mean woman. She was not the kind of person you asked questions.

 

[JanetF]

I mean we already ask women what their title is all the time (miss, mrs or ms? Is something I am asked most days).

Same here.
The only time pronoun use is an issue for me is if the name is foreign and I’m not familiar enough to know if it’s male/female, or it’s a name that could be either or like Pat, or Taylor, etc… My tactic is to go with using their actual name instead of a pronoun, just seems safer IMHO.

Also, I don’t think it’s rude to use the wrong pronoun if you don’t know…it’s rude to use the wrong pronoun after you’ve been told though.

 

[Pup7]

She was named after an important relative. A grandfather I believe. She was a truly mean woman. She was not the kind of person you asked questions.

With that name I think my personality would be a bit different as well.

 

[Pup7]

Also, I don’t think it’s rude to use the wrong pronoun if you don’t know…it’s rude to use the wrong pronoun after you’ve been told though.

THIS. I’ve screwed up on the phone before asking for someone with a masculine name but the holder was a female…who answered the phone. And I apologize profusely and mean every word of it, and feel terrible when they say “it’s okay” - because it must get old for them.

Same with pronouns.

I see a lot more trans folks here than I did in the last state I was stationed in, and I do address them by the pronoun they appear/how they present themselves (it’s an assumption, but I’ve not been called out yet, and I’m making the effort or at least I hope folks know I am). I don’t believe in being rude at all. I just don’t understand putting them in an email signature.

 

[Alex337]

That is indeed what I was saying. I see my keyboard corrected not to but.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Hormone blockers have been around a long while too, they were used in people experiencing early onset puberty.

Yes, and we are now finding out that they can cause serious long-term effects. Sadly, we will probably see far more of those effects a few years down the road, as children are being given these drugs for “transgender” purposes.

See this article from PBS about women who took a prescribed hormone blocker as children to ward off precocious puberty:

Women fear drug they used to halt puberty led to health problems

Despite questions about Lupron’s lasting side effects and minimal study into its safety, the FDA sped approval of the drug to market.

www.pbs.org

 

[FirstFiveEighth]

If you are cutting off your breasts because you don’t like them and not for a medical reason like, if you don’t get a mastectomy you have a high chance of dieing from cancer, then yeah, that is mutilation.

And yes, disphoria is a legitimate mental issue. However, you claimed that it could very well be that the problem is not, in fact, a mental disorder, but a persons actual, physical body is the wrong body. A person cannot have the “wrong body”. It is impossible. Your body is your body and the body you were supposed to have. To claim otherwise is complete pseudoscience.