A
Alex337
Guest
Hormone blockers have been around a long while too, they were used in people experiencing early onset puberty.
- Status
blackforest
Well-known member
The link explains it better than I do.
CAF is starting to require that my posts wait for mod approval. I didn’t think I was being that naughty . . .
So I’ll bid buenas noches for now.
CAF is starting to require that my posts wait for mod approval. I didn’t think I was being that naughty . . .
So I’ll bid buenas noches for now.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
Yes,I know who you are referring to as I am also Bosnian background and my own parents emigrated to Australia.
Andreja is famous on the international scene,but this is still not “common” or accepted in Bosnia to the extent that it is in Australia for example.
Notice how Andreja is the only transgender model from the region that we can name?
That is because it is so rare.
One will hear/read much more about Andreja Pejic in Australian or American publications/news papers then they will in Bosnian publications.
That’s not to say that there are not occasional individuals like Andreja in Bosnia/Croatia/Serbia -there definitely are-but it is not accepted to the level like in Australia or America.
Eg:in Bosnia there are no political correct terminology,no intersex in schools policies,no belief in gender fluidness,no psychologists pushing political beliefs in favour of people being able to “choose” gender identity etc…
That aside,Andreja is a very beautiful individual,whether as male or female,however the reality is he would not be getting as much work as he is getting as a female/androgynous model if he had of remained living in the Ex Yugoslavija.
He gets this work because he is being booked by international clients who are open to and promotional of gender fluidness.
Even if he got work in Ex Yu,it would be because the fashion/artsy world is often more open to this in general.
They,however,don’t represent the majority of everyday general publics opinion.
Part of Andreja’s “appeal” is the novelty factor-ie:that he can look very female and can pull off being a female.
So it’s that shock factor or novelty that creates that interest.And that novelty factor appeals more to international places like USA than to Bosnia/other Ex Yu countries because of the difference in cultures/mentalities.
Transgenderism can sometimes be tolerated in Bosnia,but tolerated is not the same as promoted.
Andreja is famous on the international scene,but this is still not “common” or accepted in Bosnia to the extent that it is in Australia for example.
Notice how Andreja is the only transgender model from the region that we can name?
That is because it is so rare.
One will hear/read much more about Andreja Pejic in Australian or American publications/news papers then they will in Bosnian publications.
That’s not to say that there are not occasional individuals like Andreja in Bosnia/Croatia/Serbia -there definitely are-but it is not accepted to the level like in Australia or America.
Eg:in Bosnia there are no political correct terminology,no intersex in schools policies,no belief in gender fluidness,no psychologists pushing political beliefs in favour of people being able to “choose” gender identity etc…
That aside,Andreja is a very beautiful individual,whether as male or female,however the reality is he would not be getting as much work as he is getting as a female/androgynous model if he had of remained living in the Ex Yugoslavija.
He gets this work because he is being booked by international clients who are open to and promotional of gender fluidness.
Even if he got work in Ex Yu,it would be because the fashion/artsy world is often more open to this in general.
They,however,don’t represent the majority of everyday general publics opinion.
Part of Andreja’s “appeal” is the novelty factor-ie:that he can look very female and can pull off being a female.
So it’s that shock factor or novelty that creates that interest.And that novelty factor appeals more to international places like USA than to Bosnia/other Ex Yu countries because of the difference in cultures/mentalities.
Transgenderism can sometimes be tolerated in Bosnia,but tolerated is not the same as promoted.
Last edited:
A
Alex337
Guest
Honestly I can’t name another Bosnian model, trans* or not.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
That’s because it is rarely publicised in Australian newspapers etc.
I don’t really take much note of the modelling scene/follow it as it doesn’t really interest me but there are plenty such as Nermina Mekic,Delilah Softic and 2017 Miss World Australia is of Bosnian background.
I don’t really take much note of the modelling scene/follow it as it doesn’t really interest me but there are plenty such as Nermina Mekic,Delilah Softic and 2017 Miss World Australia is of Bosnian background.
Last edited:
R
Rozellelily
Guest
At the same time people with gender dysphoria really struggle a lot and should be welcomed,treated with compassion and not bullied etc.
The Catholic Church and certain cultures may not believe in gender fluidness etc but the same time all individuals should be treated with kindness.
The Catholic Church and certain cultures may not believe in gender fluidness etc but the same time all individuals should be treated with kindness.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
Not accepted doesn’t mean it’s rare. I didn’t know anyone who was trans and then suddenly they were everywhere. I reached out to one person, shared this with a friend who then told me about her oldest who had come out as trans. Wow. Indicating that I was an ally meant that some I only knew by username began to talk openly. If they feel safe, they emerge.
Intersex is a completely different thing. Maybe it should be in schools so people would know the difference.
That you know of.
So glad you brought that up. I think the Church and certain groups are either misunderstanding this or are doing a very poor job explaining things. It’s difficult to have a conversation with someone when they get some basic things wrong. I’m getting used to laying groundwork as part of a conversation
I think there was some novelty but I just thought she was was stunning. I like androgeny. Now, just models women’s wear and was/is the face for Make Up For Ever.
I think the novelty is gone and she’s just a fashion model now. And an actress, I see!
Last edited:
A
Alex337
Guest
I think her main appeal is that she’s beautiful. Seriously, check her out in the David Bowie clip, she’s amazing. That clip has three androgenous beauties.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
What I was referring to was that it was less common than in countries such as Australia or USA even when taking into account stigma factors.
Are you open to the possibility that there may be sociological/cultural/upbringing factors in at least some individuals who have gender dysphoria?
Sorry,I should have said transgender/gender dysphoria.My mistake.
I don’t see any issue with schools teaching about the differences between intersex,transgender etc if it’s only done as a “laying out of the facts” way.
Perhaps it should be reserved though for uni students age as opposed to high school students age as we weren’t taught this in high school.
I do know of because it is my culture.
Naturally I know my cultural/background beliefs and I also know the general mentality in Australia due to simply living there/interacting.
That doesn’t mean that there won’t be some individuals with a different view,as that is the case for every country and everywhere.
I can’t refer to every individual,of course,only for the general mentality/general outlook.
Every country has a identity/mentality so to speak.Eg:Russia isn’t sweden and sweden isn’t Russia (and have different views to gay and transgender issues depending on the general outlook of its citizens).
Religion (Catholic and Orthodox and Muslim) is quite tied up into the identity in Ex Yu countries and often influences viewpoints.
Croatian conservatives march against transgender rights in Zagreb
Thousands of conservative Croatian protesters have taken to the streets of Zagreb to speak out against a treaty designed to combat violence against women. Activists are unhappy that the legislation provides for transgender people.www.rt.com
In which way do you see it?
We will have to agree to disagree here.
Last edited:
R
Rozellelily
Guest
Absolutely,she’s very beautiful but then many models often are.
Andreja’s probably hard working too.
It would be naive though to think that Andreja’s transgenderness/androgyny plays no part in his/her commercial success.
There are many born female models,just as externally beautiful,but they do not receive as much international fame/success because they do not have an “interesting story” or “sensationalisation” factor.
Perhaps that’s a blessing though,because the fame,adulations and “blessings” of the world may not be such a great thing after all?
Andreja’s probably hard working too.
It would be naive though to think that Andreja’s transgenderness/androgyny plays no part in his/her commercial success.
There are many born female models,just as externally beautiful,but they do not receive as much international fame/success because they do not have an “interesting story” or “sensationalisation” factor.
Perhaps that’s a blessing though,because the fame,adulations and “blessings” of the world may not be such a great thing after all?
Last edited:
A
Alex337
Guest
I taught high schoolers about intersex and trans* stuff. It’s actually really easy, some of the students already knew about it all.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
@alex337,
It would be no surprise if they did already know because it is such a talked about issue and there seems to be a lot more kids in countries like Australia and America feeling this way.
Teens probably already know more than some adults.
I don’t think that necessarily means it should be part of a high school curriculum though.
It would be no surprise if they did already know because it is such a talked about issue and there seems to be a lot more kids in countries like Australia and America feeling this way.
Teens probably already know more than some adults.
I don’t think that necessarily means it should be part of a high school curriculum though.
Last edited:
A
Alex337
Guest
I actually taught that in the uk. But it makes it even more important to be taught because of all the misinformation they pick up. Plus it doesn’t take long, I taught it as part of health and sexuality.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
Sorry,I didn’t realise it was the Uk.
The Uk though has a similar climate to Australia and US regarding this I think anyway (more kids feeling gender dysphoria then in the past)?
In Australia there was the Safe Schools program which has now been dumped.
I don’t know what the kids are taught now.
In my view,it would be better just to teach zero tolerance towards bullying towards kids who feel this way and leave the sex or gender talk up to parents.
Like you mentioned,a lot of kids know this stuff anyway.
The Uk though has a similar climate to Australia and US regarding this I think anyway (more kids feeling gender dysphoria then in the past)?
In Australia there was the Safe Schools program which has now been dumped.
I don’t know what the kids are taught now.
In my view,it would be better just to teach zero tolerance towards bullying towards kids who feel this way and leave the sex or gender talk up to parents.
Like you mentioned,a lot of kids know this stuff anyway.
Last edited:
A
Alex337
Guest
No worries. I normally teach in Aus, I just went over there a little while ago and got to teach sex ed. rather than my usual topics (I get to teach it in Aus in Term 4 this year!).
Some schools still use Safe Schools, I read over the curriculum guide for it and will likely be using a good portion of it myself. Currently each school has a fair amount of variation in terms of sex ed.
In terms of teaching it at schools I found it important to dispel myths that had grown up about it, it was also shortly after the death of Leelah Alcorn (Leelah Alcorn - Wikipedia) so it was a good topic to explore. All honesty the lesson I taught was a pretty straight forward “some people feel they are a different gender to their birth; treat them with respect” segment with the chance for students to ask questions.
Some schools still use Safe Schools, I read over the curriculum guide for it and will likely be using a good portion of it myself. Currently each school has a fair amount of variation in terms of sex ed.
In terms of teaching it at schools I found it important to dispel myths that had grown up about it, it was also shortly after the death of Leelah Alcorn (Leelah Alcorn - Wikipedia) so it was a good topic to explore. All honesty the lesson I taught was a pretty straight forward “some people feel they are a different gender to their birth; treat them with respect” segment with the chance for students to ask questions.
J
JoyToTheWhirled
Guest
Ah, I wake up and We’re on to the use of puberty blocker, so benign and reversible. Except they’re not. I know of a grown woman who used them as prescribed and they caused the most horrendous side effects and lasting damage. Off label use stunts growth to the degree that children are being denied a puberty altogether. Grown women are not supposed to be on HRT for their entire life, and yet these treatments encourage life long usage for children. There is a very unpleasant trend to get these things without a proper consultation, too, straight off the internet.
Once the interventions start, children rarely desist, if the Tavistock Clinic’s approach of ‘watchful waiting’ is used I believe the desisting figure is around 80%.
There is nothing wrong with letting little boys and girls present how they wish to present - gender is a straitjacket we shove people into, and this ideology reaffirms it in a most brutal way. Little Peter doesn’t like the name Peter and prefers to wear pretty things and play with baby dolls? Well, so what? Every single transing children story I’ve ever read has that as the preamble to a decision to load them up with chemicals to alter their body in hugely damaging ways which is a profoundly abusive way of dealing with youthful disorientation.
As to the Church’s approach, it’s not hard to find. Pope Francis has spoken out against this push, and the Church has never been anything but affirming of the human body as a good thing that does not need cosmetic alteration to be near to a ‘true self’.
Once the interventions start, children rarely desist, if the Tavistock Clinic’s approach of ‘watchful waiting’ is used I believe the desisting figure is around 80%.
There is nothing wrong with letting little boys and girls present how they wish to present - gender is a straitjacket we shove people into, and this ideology reaffirms it in a most brutal way. Little Peter doesn’t like the name Peter and prefers to wear pretty things and play with baby dolls? Well, so what? Every single transing children story I’ve ever read has that as the preamble to a decision to load them up with chemicals to alter their body in hugely damaging ways which is a profoundly abusive way of dealing with youthful disorientation.
As to the Church’s approach, it’s not hard to find. Pope Francis has spoken out against this push, and the Church has never been anything but affirming of the human body as a good thing that does not need cosmetic alteration to be near to a ‘true self’.
A
Alex337
Guest
People aren’t prescribed puberty blockers for their whole life, and if you stop taking them puberty resumes so you don’t need HRT. And blockers are only prescribed when a psychiatrist, normally multiple, have been consulted along with an endrocrinologist and its been determined that the person would be at risk without them.
J
JoyToTheWhirled
Guest
I didn’t say puberty blockers were lifelong, I said the hormones were. And you are simply wrong, people are accessing medications from the internet, and there are coaching ‘scripts’ circulating among the online trans communities to enable people to say the right things to access them when they do get to speak to various specialists. There is precious little research into the off label usage of blockers, and the consequences even for children who have been prescribed them for precocious puberty are just coming to light as people are being left with serious long term damage.
I mean that’s before you even get to the issue of stunting genital growth so that the cosmetic surgery later desired on that area is impossible because there simply isn’t enough material to approximate other genitals. And never mind the ability of these children to go on to be parents. Call me picky, but I think sterilising children is a pretty scary thing.
I get that you and other transactivists believe you are being compassionate, but on one side of this is growing evidence of women being put in danger and disadvantaged, children being mutilated and sterilised because they don’t fit in rigid gender stereotypes, and on the other is an insistence that it’s rude to point all this out and we should be polite.
A
Alex337
Guest
So hold on; if people do things illegally they can go wrong? Madness!Alex337:
I didn’t say puberty blockers were lifelong, I said the hormones were. And you are simply wrong, people are accessing medications from the internet, and there are coaching ‘scripts’ circulating among the online trans communities to enable people to say the right things to access them when they do get to speak to various specialists. There is precious little research into the off label usage of blockers, and the consequences even for children who have been prescribed them for precocious puberty are just coming to light as people are being left with serious long term damage.
I mean that’s before you even get to the issue of stunting genital growth so that the cosmetic surgery later desired on that area is impossible because there simply isn’t enough material to approximate other genitals. And never mind the ability of these children to go on to be parents. Call me picky, but I think sterilising children is a pretty scary thing.
I get that you and other transactivists believe you are being compassionate, but on one side of this is growing evidence of women being put in danger and disadvantaged, children being mutilated and sterilised because they don’t fit in rigid gender stereotypes, and on the other is an insistence that it’s rude to point all this out and we should be polite.
A
Alex337
Guest
Oh, and sterilisation only occurs if the person goes on to take transitioning hormones. Hormone blockers don’t cause it. So, for example, if a person was assigned male at birth and takes hormone blockers before moving on to take testosterone blockers and oestrogen supplements they risk being infertile. But that is a decision made once they have reached adulthood. If they simply go off blockers their puberty resumes; Transgender youth fact check: Blaire White is wrong – Part 1: Fundamentals | Gender Analysis
- Status