Gene Fadness, ex-Mormon, on Catholic Answers

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I haven’t missed the discussion. I just went back and reread the posts regarding this.

You said:

To which SteveVH replied:

And I have added:

The Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was once for all time. The Mass is our participation in that same Sacrifice. It transcends time and space.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse and disingenuous in your questions! 😦 I think I have tried to help as much as I can. Perhaps someone else would like to engage in this discussion with you.
And I have replied to all those arguments earlier on. You have not added anything new that I should need to reply to.
 
And I have replied to all those arguments earlier on. You have not added anything new that I should need to reply to.
No, your replies indicated that you didn’t understand the Catholic view of the Mass and the sacrifice and the Eucharist. I was trying to help you. I am beginning to see that you weren’t looking for any kind of clarification or learning.
 
And I have replied to all those arguments earlier on. You have not added anything new that I should need to reply to.
Come on now, Zerinus, 🙂 Be fair.

You did have some legitimate mis-conceptions of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Eurcharist and others were trying to help clarify what the real Catholic belief is.

Just like they would expect you to clarify what the real Mormon belief was if they had misconceptions over some Mormon doctrine (and you do that quite well and with honor).

If you would hope that others would appreciate you correcting them when they were wrong with Mormon beliefs, certainly they are justly expect that you would appreciate when you were in error…

🙂

Be fair. You mis-understood Catholic beliefs. Now that has been cleared up.
You would do just the same if the shoe was on the other foot…

Misinformations happens…and that certainly is something both Catholics and Mormons have to deal with…Others who have been exposed to misinformation 👍

Its fine if you dont understand what they are telling you…but that doesnt mean your misinformation was correct …:eek:
 
/… The point I am trying to make is that in a discussion of this kind it is best to leave “commentaries” alone, and deal directly with the scriptures—otherwise our discussion would be reduced to just “trading commentaries,” which is not a very enlightening way of conducting such a discussion.
Your question was where does it prophecy in the Bible that Jesus will have the Melchizedek priesthood. Psalms 110:4 is a prophecy about Jesus Christ. It says that the the future Messiah will be a priest of the order of Melchizedek.
Yes, a priest of the order of Melchizedek, which means he will be a priest similar or like Melchizedek. (Hebrews 7:15-17). I see Melchizedek and then Christ, but no ongoing Melchizedek Priesthood in the Bible.
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KJV:
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
ESV:
This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him,“You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”
 
Zerinus,

You have your priesthood…
zerinus;6113762:
…somebody said that Mormonism does not have the genuine priesthood…
Why would you say something like that?

Are you saying that the Mormon priesthood is a valid priesthood in the eyes of The One True God?

Are you saying that the Mormon priesthood is accepted as a valid priesthood by the Catholic Church?

The Mormons Church does not accept the Catholic priesthood as being valid.
“Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out.”
Fr. John Corapi
 
No, I said they have their priesthood…just like the ancient Aztecs had their priesthood…
…Theirs…not ours…

Melchizedek came only once… he did not have successors per se even like the Levites did.
 
No, your replies indicated that you didn’t understand the Catholic view of the Mass and the sacrifice and the Eucharist. I was trying to help you. I am beginning to see that you weren’t looking for any kind of clarification or learning.
Come on now, Zerinus, 🙂 Be fair.

You did have some legitimate mis-conceptions of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Eurcharist and others were trying to help clarify what the real Catholic belief is.

Just like they would expect you to clarify what the real Mormon belief was if they had misconceptions over some Mormon doctrine (and you do that quite well and with honor).

If you would hope that others would appreciate you correcting them when they were wrong with Mormon beliefs, certainly they are justly expect that you would appreciate when you were in error…

🙂

Be fair. You mis-understood Catholic beliefs. Now that has been cleared up.
You would do just the same if the shoe was on the other foot…

Misinformations happens…and that certainly is something both Catholics and Mormons have to deal with…Others who have been exposed to misinformation 👍

Its fine if you dont understand what they are telling you…but that doesnt mean your misinformation was correct …:eek:
If you want to clarify things for me, and educate me about Catholicism, you have to answer my questions, not invent your own questions and answer them yourselves. My questions are simple: Is the Mass a sacrifice or isn’t it? Does the priest literally offer a sacrifice, or doesn’t he? If it is, and if he does, what is he sacrificing, and how? If it isn’t, and he doesn’t, then I look forward to receiving an apology from the Catholics who told me that it is and he does, and faulted the Mormon priesthood for not offering sacrifices like the Catholic priests do.
 
If you want to clarify things for me, and educate me about Catholicism, you have to answer my questions, not invent your own questions and answer them yourselves. My questions are simple: Is the Mass a sacrifice or isn’t it? Does the priest literally offer a sacrifice, or doesn’t he? If it is, and if he does, what is he sacrificing, and how? If it isn’t, and he doesn’t, then I look forward to receiving an apology from the Catholics who told me that it is and he does, and faulted the Mormon priesthood for not offering sacrifices like the Catholic priests do.
Listen man,

They already told you.

The One True God exists “outside” of time, it is an existence that the Catholics call “the eternal now”.

My own personal way of understanding it, is that God is larger than time, time is not larger than God, and God encompasses time, time does not encompass God.

For God, all times are NOW.

A different way I personally use of understanding it, is that God exists equally in all time periods. Just like God can be everywhere, God can ALSO be in everytime.
God exists in multiple places and in multiple times.

God is just as present over 2000 years ago on the cross, as He is just as present right here right now.

When they tell you that God exists outside of time and that the priest presents the same eternal sacrifice to God The Father, then they really mean it.

The people at the Catholic mass join God The Father, not in His time period, but they join God The Father in His EXISTENCE in “THE ETERNAL NOW”.

You listen to me, you Catholics…

G.K. Chesterton warned people about the “hiss from hell”.

And NO…
mormons don’t have a valid priesthood, because they don’t present The once and for all time sacrifice that Jesus The Chrsit made on the cross.
 
Listen man,

They already told you.

The One True God exists “outside” of time, it is an existence that the Catholics call “the eternal now”.

My own personal way of understanding it, is that God is larger than time, time is not larger than God, and God encompasses time, time does not encompass God.

For God, all times are NOW.

A different way I personally use of understanding it, is that God exists equally in all time periods. Just like God can be everywhere, God can ALSO be in everytime.
God exists in multiple places and in multiple times.

God is just as present over 2000 years ago on the cross, as He is just as present right here right now.

When they tell you that God exists outside of time and that the priest presents the same eternal sacrifice to God The Father, then they really mean it.

The people at the Catholic mass join God The Father, not in His time period, but they join God The Father in His EXISTENCE in “THE ETERNAL NOW”.

You listen to me, you Catholics…

G.K. Chesterton warned people about the “hiss from hell”.

And NO…
mormons don’t have a valid priesthood, because they don’t present The once and for all time sacrifice that Jesus The Christ made on the cross.
I made a typo: “Chrsit” should be “Christ”.
I fixed it in my quote here.
 
Zerinus likes to play these games, and then pretends he understands Catholic beliefs better than Catholics.

Catholics have already explained that the Mass (also called the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”) is a sacrifice. Catholics believe that Jesus Christ died once and for all on the cross, and is not re-sacrificed, or killed again on our altars. Instead, the Mass is a participation in the same, once and for all sacrifice on the cross. We believe that the atonement is eternal, and the Mass is a participation in it, since it is a “re-presentation” of that same sacrifice, done in an “un-bloody” manner (since Jesus Christ died once). The chief presider at Mass is Jesus Christ, the eternal High Priest. Jesus Christ offers Himself for us at Mass. The priest/bishop is Christ’s representative, and acts with His power. Here are the important quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**II. What is this Sacrament Called?
1330 The memorial of the Lord’s Passion and Resurrection.

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church’s offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, “sacrifice of praise,” spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.184 In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
Code:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ’s sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

In the catacombs the Church is often represented as a woman in prayer, arms outstretched in the praying position. Like Christ who stretched out his arms on the cross, through him, with him, and in him, she offers herself and intercedes for all men.

**

…continued
 
**1369 The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop’s name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:
Code:
Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.191

Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.192
1370 To the offering of Christ are united not only the members still here on earth, but also those already in the glory of heaven. In communion with and commemorating the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the Eucharist the Church is as it were at the foot of the cross with Mary, united with the offering and intercession of Christ.

1371 The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who "have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,"193 so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ:
Code:
Put this body anywhere! Don't trouble yourselves about it! I simply ask you to remember me at the Lord's altar wherever you are.194

Then, we pray [in the anaphora] for the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep, and in general for all who have fallen asleep before us, in the belief that it is a great benefit to the souls on whose behalf the supplication is offered, while the holy and tremendous Victim is present. . . . By offering to God our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, if they have sinned, we . . . offer Christ sacrificed for the sins of all, and so render favorable, for them and for us, the God who loves man.195
1372 St. Augustine admirably summed up this doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer’s sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:
Code:
This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head. . . . Such is the sacrifice of Christians: "we who are many are one Body in Christ" The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.196
**

These excerpts are a good overview of how Catholics view the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Again: we believe that the Mass is a sacrifice offered by the priests, with Jesus Christ as the High Priest. It is not a re-sacrificing of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ died once and for all on the cross, and never dies again. Instead, it is a re-presentation of that same sacrifice, a participation in His eternal atonement. The Catechism is very clear on how we view the Mass.
 
Zerinus likes to play these games, and then pretends he understands Catholic beliefs better than Catholics.
Hmm. Unfortunate.
Says to me then its less of a desire of discussion and clarification of beliefs and more of a desire to get into a tit-for-tat debate perhaps?

Only he knows what his motives are.
 
Listen man,

They already told you.

The One True God exists “outside” of time, it is an existence that the Catholics call “the eternal now”.

My own personal way of understanding it, is that God is larger than time, time is not larger than God, and God encompasses time, time does not encompass God.

For God, all times are NOW.

A different way I personally use of understanding it, is that God exists equally in all time periods. Just like God can be everywhere, God can ALSO be in everytime.
God exists in multiple places and in multiple times.

God is just as present over 2000 years ago on the cross, as He is just as present right here right now.

When they tell you that God exists outside of time and that the priest presents the same eternal sacrifice to God The Father, then they really mean it.

The people at the Catholic mass join God The Father, not in His time period, but they join God The Father in His EXISTENCE in “THE ETERNAL NOW”.

You listen to me, you Catholics…

G.K. Chesterton warned people about the “hiss from hell”.

And NO…
mormons don’t have a valid priesthood, because they don’t present The once and for all time sacrifice that Jesus The Chrsit made on the cross.
You are not answering my questions at all. You are inventing your own questions, and then answering them for yourself. When you have decided to actually answer my questions instead of inventing your own, let me know, and we will talk about them.
 
Zerinus likes to play these games, and then pretends he understands Catholic beliefs better than Catholics.

Catholics have already explained that the Mass (also called the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”) is a sacrifice. Catholics believe that Jesus Christ died once and for all on the cross, and is not re-sacrificed, or killed again on our altars. Instead, the Mass is a participation in the same, once and for all sacrifice on the cross. We believe that the atonement is eternal, and the Mass is a participation in it, since it is a “re-presentation” of that same sacrifice, done in an “un-bloody” manner (since Jesus Christ died once). The chief presider at Mass is Jesus Christ, the eternal High Priest. Jesus Christ offers Himself for us at Mass. The priest/bishop is Christ’s representative, and acts with His power. Here are the important quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


These excerpts are a good overview of how Catholics view the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Again: we believe that the Mass is a sacrifice offered by the priests, with Jesus Christ as the High Priest. It is not a re-sacrificing of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ died once and for all on the cross, and never dies again. Instead, it is a re-presentation of that same sacrifice, a participation in His eternal atonement. The Catechism is very clear on how we view the Mass.
To which the appropriate reply was given in post #195. I think you are the one who is playing games, and your game playing is getting a bit tiresome.

Your lengthy quotes do not directly answer my questions. You need to answer them in your own words so that we can discuss them—assuming that is what you are interested in. It is not possible to properly discuss doctrine by just trading commentaries written by others.
 
To which the appropriate reply was given in post #195. I think you are the one who is playing games, and your game playing is getting a bit tiresome.

Your lengthy quotes do not directly answer my questions. You need to answer them in your own words so that we can discuss them—assuming that is what you are interested in. It is not possible to properly discuss doctrine by just trading commentaries written by others.
His quotes DID answer your question. You just don’t like the answer or you’re not actually reading the answers because you actually quoted part of TheosisM’s post that specifically answered your question!

(Not to mention that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not a “commentary”.)

You asked:
Is the Mass a sacrifice or isn’t it? Does the priest literally offer a sacrifice, or doesn’t he? If it is, and if he does, what is he sacrificing, and how? If it isn’t, and he doesn’t, then I look forward to receiving an apology from the Catholics who told me that it is and he does, and faulted the Mormon priesthood for not offering sacrifices like the Catholic priests do.
(Emphasis is mine)
Originally Posted by TheosisM
Zerinus likes to play these games, and then pretends he understands Catholic beliefs better than Catholics.
Catholics have already explained that the Mass (also called the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”) is a sacrifice. Catholics believe that Jesus Christ died once and for all on the cross, and is not re-sacrificed, or killed again on our altars. Instead, the Mass is a participation in the same, once and for all sacrifice on the cross. We believe that the atonement is eternal, and the Mass is a participation in it, since it is a “re-presentation” of that same sacrifice, done in an “un-bloody” manner (since Jesus Christ died once).** The chief presider at Mass is Jesus Christ, the eternal High Priest. Jesus Christ offers Himself for us at Mass.** The priest/bishop is Christ’s representative, and acts with His power. Here are the important quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
So we have in fact answered your questions (several times in several different ways) and no, Catholics do not owe you an apology.
 
To which the appropriate reply was given in post #195. I think you are the one who is playing games, and your game playing is getting a bit tiresome.

Your lengthy quotes do not directly answer my questions. You need to answer them in your own words so that we can discuss them—assuming that is what you are interested in. It is not possible to properly discuss doctrine by just trading commentaries written by others.
The answers given again are in post 233 and they are in bold so that you may be able to read them very easily.
 
His quotes DID answer your question. You just don’t like the answer or you’re not actually reading the answers because you actually quoted part of TheosisM’s post that specifically answered your question!

(Not to mention that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not a “commentary”.)

You asked:

Is the Mass a sacrifice or isn’t it? Does the priest literally offer a sacrifice, or doesn’t he? If it is, and if he does, what is he sacrificing, and how? If it isn’t, and he doesn’t, then I look forward to receiving an apology from the Catholics who told me that it is and he does, and faulted the Mormon priesthood for not offering sacrifices like the Catholic priests do.

(Emphasis is mine)

Originally Posted by TheosisM
Zerinus likes to play these games, and then pretends he understands Catholic beliefs better than Catholics.

Catholics have already explained that the Mass (also called the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”) is a sacrifice.
Great, thank you! That answers the first part of my question. So the Mass is definitely a sacrifice. Wonderful! Two more questions to go:

Question 2: Does the priest literally offer a sacrifice?
Question 3: If he does, what does he sacrifice, and how?​

Those were the questions. Let’s see if Theosis has answered the remaining questions in his post:
Originally Posted by TheosisM
Catholics believe that Jesus Christ died once and for all on the cross, and is not re-sacrificed, or killed again on our altars. Instead, the Mass is a participation in the same, once and for all sacrifice on the cross. We believe that the atonement is eternal, and the Mass is a participation in it, since it is a “re-presentation” of that same sacrifice, done in an “un-bloody” manner (since Jesus Christ died once).
This doesn’t answer either of the above two questions; and in fact it doesn’t make a lot of sense either. I had already pointed that out to him earlier in post #195. Here is a quote from that post:
Now that don’t make a lot of sense. How do you “participate” in a sacrifice, especially one that has already taken place? If you said that we celebrate Mass to remember His sacrifice, that is understandable; but the only way to “participate” in a sacrifice is to actually perform it! So you have to make up your mind whether you are actually performing a sacrifice, or doing something else.
To which he never replied! So let’s continue with the rest of his post, to see if they answer my remaining questions:
Originally Posted by TheosisM
The chief presider at Mass is Jesus Christ, the eternal High Priest. Jesus Christ offers Himself for us at Mass.
This still does not answer either of my remaining two questions—and it raises more serious theological questions. I thought we agreed that Jesus’ sacrifice was an event that happened once, and does not need to happen again. Now you are telling me that He is offering Himself again at Mass! That don’t make sense, honest! But let’s continue with the remainder of his post:
Originally Posted by TheosisM
The priest/bishop is Christ’s representative, and acts with His power.
So we are still none the wiser whether the priest actually offers a sacrifice or not, and if so what he is sacrificing and how!
So we have in fact answered your questions (several times in several different ways).
Actually you haven’t; and I am beginning to lose hope that you ever will—or perhaps even can.
 
People don’t realize someone very scholarly in Hebrews passed by with alot of knowledge…so no matter how valid and educated the learned, nothing will suffice in bearing the truth of Scriptures and the understanding of Hebrews.
 
To which the appropriate reply was given in post #195. I think you are the one who is playing games, and your game playing is getting a bit tiresome.

Your lengthy quotes do not directly answer my questions. You need to answer them in your own words so that we can discuss them—assuming that is what you are interested in. It is not possible to properly discuss doctrine by just trading commentaries written by others.
Zerinus, as you can see, multiple people have answered you, and we frankly are tired of your games, which we see in practically every thread you participate in (weren’t you suspended at some point?) I already responded to how we see the Mass in my own words, and then I gave you the official view as well (which is an extensive overview specifically of the sacrificial nature of the Mass. I am not interested in discussing the Mass in this thread, since that’s not what this thread is about! Instead, my goal was to correct your erroneous view of the Catholic Mass, and that was done. I don’t care that you don’t understand the Mass, or don’t think it is really a sacrifice. The point here is that 1) Catholics view the Mass as a sacrifice; 2) Catholics view the priesthood as a sacrificial priesthood ; 3) Catholics do not believe that Jesus Christ is re-sacrificed at the altar.

If you would like to discuss whether the Mass is a sacrifice or not, start another thread. Otherwise, we have already given you the Catholic view of our own liturgy.
 
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